Question - I know this will blow up!

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

Thanks for causing me to revisit Tomaz423's ideas. Sometimes I tend to focus on items in a thread that I strongly agree with and pay less attention to thoughts that are new to me. If I'm going to keep learning, then I need to accept new ways to use my tools. I've never considered viewing the space within a crowded anchorage field with the radar. I'll need to try this!

Good point of view.

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Good point of view.

Yup I agree. That was the type of information I wanted out of this post, not an argument as to whether AIS replaces anything. Just reasons to keep Radar.

One of the suggestions I made earlier (watch for oil platforms) is actually covered by AIS. So not really a reason to keep radar.

[deblen]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

When I'm in fog I turn my radar on, but I'm really watching my chart plotter as I'm more worried about position info than some big unseen "thing".

Also in fog frequently a small fiberglass or wooden boat appears that never showed up on the radar. So really the radar I haven't found to be much of any aid.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Sadly,there are too many boats out there without decent radar reflectors.
I can't imagine travelling the Gulf of Maine,in anything that floats,without a reflector.Even our local 14ft dulce dorys have one.

To give a personal example,I encountered a local 58ft steel ketch bow to bow @ 1/4nm. I came around one headland & her another. Luckily it was a clear day. She had no radar reflector,& I could not pick her up on my perfectly working radar(I am a retd marine electronics tech),until she was inside the 1/8nm ring,& her bow aspect changed.I wouldn't have believed it possible,had I not experienced it myself.
And then there are the kayakers....



58 ft steel ketch-They didn't think they needed a reflector,cause it's steel.

[Hudson Force]

I know people have dismissed the value of radar picking up an image for small fiberglass or wood boats, but that's not always the case. They just show up at less distance and with a smaller target. Not long ago Nancie and I were approaching Newport from Block Island in the fog and I was at my station, glued to the radar screen, while Nancie was at the helm.

With little warning I called out that there was something close on the port bow. Seconds later a 30' wood sloop appeared sailing on a port tack across our bow about 100' away. The crew was sitting in the cockpit with wine and cheese. They were surprised to see us as we turned to port and passed to their stern, but they merely raised their flutes as a toast.

I'll never be as casual as some that are accustomed to sailing in the fog!

[btrayfors]

Man, if you can't pick up a 58' steel ketch on your "perfectly working radar", something is WRONG. Either with the radar or it's installation or its type or its adjustment or....maybe...its operator.

I can see lobster pots and crab pots and kayaks and rowboats on my Furuno 1832 green-screen radar with a 24" dome. But, it's gotta be adjusted well and monitored closely.

I've found that manual adjustment is often better than the auto adjustment.

Bill

[deblen]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I know people have dismissed the value of radar picking up an image for small fiberglass or wood boats, but that's not always the case. They just show up at less distance and with a smaller target. Not long ago Nancie and I were approaching Newport from Block Island in the fog and I was at my station, glued to the radar screen, while Nancie was at the helm.

With little warning I called out that there was something close on the port bow. Seconds later a 30' wood sloop appeared sailing on a port tack across our bow about 100' away. The crew was sitting in the cockpit with wine and cheese. They were surprised to see us as we turned to port and passed to their stern, but they merely raised their flutes as a toast.

I'll never be as casual as some that are accustomed to sailing in the fog!

A perfect example of Darwin trying his best.
Sadly,the passengers had no say.
Also-all marine accidents apportion the blame for accidents-both captains are always wrong per COLREGS. Unfair in a situation as described,but it's law.

[barnakiel]

I do not find your question as a valid OR style question. It cannot be AP or radar if any or both are desirable. It is not a valid OR question if one or both are optional extras, either.

If you sailing area calls for a radar, if you can afford one (or if it is required by the law) GET ONE. Otherwise, it is up to what you think you want to have onboard, and what you can afford.

b.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by colemj

How does this one work? Do all your buddies have Class A and very tall antennas? Your Vesper certainly won't be seen at 60 miles.

Mark

Antenna is 80 feet up. The lake is 60 to 70 wide at Muskegon. I register commercial vessels in Milwaukee form about 5 miles off-shore. Class B comfortably at 20 depending on the other guy's installation & weather. - Sometimes farther. From Frankfort, we see the CG vessels around Muskegon. In that regard, its like a Fuzz-Buster.

[deblen]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

Man, if you can't pick up a 58' ketch on your "perfectly working radar", something is WRONG. Either with the radar or it's installation or its type or its adjustment or....maybe...its operator.

I can see lobster pots and crab pots and kayaks and rowboats on my Furuno 1832 green-screen radar with a 24" dome. But, it's gotta be adjusted well and monitored closely.

I've found that manual adjustment is often better than the auto adjustment.

Bill

Did you read my post carefully Bill?
I'm not surprised there will be folks that question my qualifications or my radar. I would too,if I hadn't experienced it ,along with a couple of my passengers.
As I said Bow to bow. My radar was picking up gulls & other boats NP.
But it was looking at a perfect stealth profile on the ketch. Dead stem on,with greater(lesser?) than 45deg aspect on her bows.Signal reflecting off to sides & not back at me. Both of us-no sails up-motoring-flat ass calm.I intentionally stayed on a close head to head course,& tried adj STC & Gain,cause I thought there may be a problem with my radar.
My radar is a Furuno 1721 & works very well. I boat in Gulf of Maine/Bay of Fundy-read dense <100ft vis. often. My radar runs at all times I'm out,so hopefully don't get caught with a "broken" radar,when I really need it.
I have plotter,compass & wrist watch,so I can get home fine.
But no piece of eqpt,except radar,can show me the hundreds of non-AIS eqpd vessels around me.

Truth-Scouts Honour!!

[btrayfors]

Originally Posted by deblen

Did you read my post carefully Bill?
I'm not surprised there will be folks that question my qualifications or my radar. I would too,if I hadn't experienced it ,along with a couple of my passengers.
As I said Bow to bow. My radar was picking up gulls & other boats NP.
But it was looking at a perfect stealth profile on the ketch. Dead stem on,with greater(lesser?) than 45deg aspect on her bows.Signal reflecting off to sides & not back at me. Both of us-no sails up-motoring-flat ass calm.I intentionally stayed on a close head to head course,& tried adj STC & Gain,cause I thought there may be a problem with my radar.
My radar is a Furuno 1721 & works very well. I boat in Gulf of Maine/Bay of Fundy-read dense <100ft vis. often. My radar runs at all times I'm out,so hopefully don't get caught with a "broken" radar,when I really need it.
I have plotter,compass & wrist watch,so I can get home fine.
But no piece of eqpt,except radar,can show me the hundreds of non-AIS eqpd vessels around me.

Truth-Scouts Honour!!

Yep, I believe you. But, I wouldda thought your radar would have picked up his pilot house/trunk cabin, masts, etc. Where is your antenna mounted?

Mine is on a pole on the stern, about 10' above the water. I didn't want to put it on the mast because I wanted to favor targets close in, i.e., those that I might collide with :-)

I've had some great experiences in Maine fog with the radar! And, I agree, there's no way AIS can hold a candle to radar as a versatile, synoptic navigational tool. But, paired with radar it can be helpful, e.g., in identifying a target already seen on the radar.

Cheers,

Bill

[Stu Jackson]

What more can you ask for? This is an essentially basic and well reasoned description of reality. Well done and many thanks.

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

There's great ideas here and fortunately not as controversial as the OP feared.

Among the many interesting posts, three caught my interest.

First, Gary H's observation early in the thread where he mentioned that the cruising location is a big factor. We cruised for thirty years in Florida and Bahamian waters without radar. The rare fog that we encountered was typically a brief early morning event and we would adjust our timing to confront risk. I'm not discounting that radar can be helpful or even critical at an imagined scenario, but the risk related to location is a factor. During our recent dozen years of cruising the fog and rock in Maine we have considered radar essential.

Second, I am in very strong agreement with trifan's post advising that using radar effectively requires much practice. We often are attentive to our radar screen during clear weather so that we can stay in practice interpreting images and false targets.

Third, I liked hearing of adlib2's choice to move his radar display from the nav station below to the helm. Choices made in response to radar images are effected at the helm. At times when we are moving among rock "Down East" Nancie is at the helm and I'm focused on the radar screen communicating information, but at less critical moments the screen is available to the helm where it can be scanned occasionally along with other instruments and trim.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by travellerw

Yup I agree. That was the type of information I wanted out of this post, not an argument as to whether AIS replaces anything. Just reasons to keep Radar.

One of the suggestions I made earlier (watch for oil platforms) is actually covered by AIS. So not really a reason to keep radar.

But not ALL of them.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by deblen

And then there are the kayakers....

Mosquitoes on the water with NO sense of spacial relationaships or boating etiquette.

Truly scary.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

Seconds later a 30' wood sloop appeared sailing on a port tack across our bow about 100' away.

sailing on a port tack

Jerks on a port tack always do much more than simply amuse me.

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

But not ALL of them.

My understanding is YES ALL OF THEM. Plus the watch ships that are required for each of them. If someone has some concrete information that is different please let us know.