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Old 24-05-2015, 11:20   #31
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
I hope my answer in blue answers what you wanted to find out. If not, ask me again, and I'll see if I can do better.

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Thanks.

I think I understand your very good description.
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Old 24-05-2015, 11:32   #32
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

Considering the value of a large sailing catamaran, I think the cost of radar is pretty minimal and worth having.
It also gives you something to stare at every once in a while on night watch.
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Old 24-05-2015, 12:55   #33
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

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Originally Posted by travellerw View Post
I know this question is almost going to be as bad "What Anchor" but I need to ask.

On a cruising boat, is radar essential.

I'm in the process of replacing my aging electronics and am considering ditching my radar. I have an old C80 with radar that I will be replacing. It just seems like radar has passed its prime with AIS.

Now I understand that radar can be useful in other respects (storms, fog, ect), but just doesn't seem crucial.

Anyway, what are your thoughts.. Is the money much better spent elsewhere (a new AP perhaps)?
In MHO radar isn't necessary but damn nice to have. If you can invest in AIS, GPS plotter, etc.spend the extra nickel or keep your old radar if functional.
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Old 24-05-2015, 13:24   #34
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

I run the radar almost all the time to practice comparing what I see on it to what I really see. It has come in very handy when fog closed in on a winding channel.

The new radars not only work better but use less power than the older ones. I would be inclined to get a new radar as part of the new electronic package but not if I had to give up a autopilot.
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Old 24-05-2015, 13:35   #35
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

For experienced and wide-ranging sailors, AIS is a replacement for.....

N O T H I N G

That's right, NOTHING!

AIS doesn't replace the most important navigational tool of all: the Mark I eyeball

AIS most definitely doesn't replace radar -- for all the reasons given above

AIS doesn't replace paper or electronic charts

AIS doesn't replace a fathometer

AIS doesn't replace a knotmeter

AIS doesn't replace an autopilot

AIS doesn't replace a GPS

AIS doesn't replace a chartplotter

AIS doesn't replace a bilge pump

AIS doesn't replace a VHF or SSB radio

AIS doesn't replace an EPIRB or PLB or personal communicator

AIS doesn't replace a lifejacket

AIS doesn't replace a liferaft

(you get the picture)

It seems from all the hype that the only thing AIS replaces -- for some newbies -- is COMMON SENSE!

AIS is a wonderful and entertaining tool in some circumstances. It can be lots of fun. It can be useful in tracking friends on other AIS-equipped boats. It can -- maybe -- be helpful in making sure AIS-equipped vessels can see you.

But the bottom line is that it's an ADDITIONAL navigational tool to be added to other more traditional (and more widely useful and requisite) tools and skills.

Bill
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Old 24-05-2015, 14:26   #36
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

If we're talking about usefulness I would put RADAR right at the top of any electronics package. However, I personally do not have RADAR on my boat due to cost (both purchase price and power consumption).

I have an AIS receiver, but that's because they are cheap. Radar can be used in lieu of AIS, or your chartplotter, and it will pick up rocks, ice, buoys, non AIS transmitting buoys, it will light up RACONS and SARTs. It can be used for meteorological purposes, parallel indexing and is right more frequently than a chartplotter. I don't consider it essential for my purposes but I respect them for being extremely useful tools.

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Old 24-05-2015, 16:07   #37
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

[QUOTE=travellerw;1832075]I know this question is almost going to be as bad "What Anchor" but I need to ask.

On a cruising boat, is radar essential.

I'm in the process of replacing my aging electronics and am considering ditching my radar. I have an old C80 with radar that I will be replacing. It just seems like radar has passed its prime with AIS.

Now I understand that radar can be useful in other respects (storms, fog, ect), but just doesn't seem crucial.

Anyway, what are your thoughts.. Is the money much better spent elsewhere (a new AP perhaps)?[/QUO

Straight choice between Radar and AIS I'd go with AIS; however, had a few instances when Radar got me out of trouble. Radar will show the extent of a local major storm enabling the shortest course out of it. Escaped a hurricane that way.
AIS will show your position & track to family at home as well as useful onboard. My opinion it pays to have both.
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Old 24-05-2015, 16:32   #38
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

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Originally Posted by travellerw View Post
Of course I know all that.. Fact is, I have never used my radar to show me a ship not on AIS. The odds of hitting a small boat when you are on deck watching are so low its not a consideration (not to mention radar might not pick them up anyway).

What I'm looking for is someone using radar for something I haven't considered. E.G. detecting oil platforms (I had not thought of this)..

I may keep the C80 and install it below, but it has a couple of issues an may need Raymarine service. Not sure its worth the $400(ish) to have it serviced.
We have both AIS & Broadband Radar. We avoided 5 near misses last summer cruising west from the St Mary's River toward Mackinaw. We were about 2 miles out when heavy fog set in. The real eye-opener was that all were pleasure boats, none were using radar or fog signals. Only two acknowledged our VHS hailing. The two power boats were running on plane with only 100 foot visibility. All would have been head-ons or very close had we also been blind.

The St Mary's River is the 50-mile transit from Lake Huron to Lake Superior & the locks. This all highly controlled space with many 1000 foot long ore carriers. AIS is pretty well necessary given our size & draft. Many places have nowhere to exit the channel so advanced planning is key.
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Old 24-05-2015, 17:11   #39
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by travellerw View Post
I know this question is almost going to be as bad "What Anchor" but I need to ask.

On a cruising boat, is radar essential.

I'm in the process of replacing my aging electronics and am considering ditching my radar. I have an old C80 with radar that I will be replacing. It just seems like radar has passed its prime with AIS.

Now I understand that radar can be useful in other respects (storms, fog, ect), but just doesn't seem crucial.

Anyway, what are your thoughts.. Is the money much better spent elsewhere (a new AP perhaps)?
I removed a Radar Display from my Nav Station as I have an updated display at the helm. So wish to sell the older display.
RL80C PLUS10" LCD DISPLAY
Daylight Viewable 10.4" Color Pathfinder Radar Display with hsb2 networking capability
Product Number: E52037 Serial Number: 02220151 Purchased Date: 12/11/2005 Purchased From: eBay Warranty Valid Through*:
Installed/Commissioned By: Self Are you interested ? Could work on a deal. I'm in Florida.
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Old 24-05-2015, 17:19   #40
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

For tropical sailing radar is "nice to have", not essential.
If mine would break would I replace it ? Yes.
I have a broadband, which I like a lot (low power consumption, low radiation, ...)
Few more uses:
- you see if there is a free spot somewhere in the anchorage much better with a radar then you see with your eyes.
- you can drop your anchor precisely xx m from another boat or shore and end up exactelay where you want.
- you measure the distance to a pier with great precision, so you do not run out of chain if you reverse stern to the pier
-other uses were mentioned (you see the rain and can try to avoid it, you see unlit navigation aids at night, boats, you can enter inlets at night etc.)
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Old 24-05-2015, 17:57   #41
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
We have both AIS & Broadband Radar. We avoided 5 near misses last summer cruising west from the St Mary's River toward Mackinaw. We were about 2 miles out when heavy fog set in. The real eye-opener was that all were pleasure boats, none were using radar or fog signals. Only two acknowledged our VHS hailing. The two power boats were running on plane with only 100 foot visibility. All would have been head-ons or very close had we also been blind.

The St Mary's River is the 50-mile transit from Lake Huron to Lake Superior & the locks. This all highly controlled space with many 1000 foot long ore carriers. AIS is pretty well necessary given our size & draft. Many places have nowhere to exit the channel so advanced planning is key.
I think this is a good point, fog is a nightmare on Lake Superior and to a lesser degree Lake Huron.

The part I wanted to expand on was the reference to 1000' ore carriers. Up close the AIS will show you where the ships AIS antenna is. RADAR will show you where the entire ship is. In the case of a 1000' ore carrier the bow could be nearly 2 cables from the antenna.

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Old 24-05-2015, 18:14   #42
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

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I think this is a good point, fog is a nightmare on Lake Superior and to a lesser degree Lake Huron.

The part I wanted to expand on was the reference to 1000' ore carriers. Up close the AIS will show you where the ships AIS antenna is. RADAR will show you where the entire ship is. In the case of a 1000' ore carrier the bow could be nearly 2 cables from the antenna.

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Thank you for that, Family Van. Exactly right!

Ann
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Old 24-05-2015, 18:49   #43
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
We have both AIS & Broadband Radar. We avoided 5 near misses last summer cruising west from the St Mary's River toward Mackinaw. We were about 2 miles out when heavy fog set in. The real eye-opener was that all were pleasure boats, none were using radar or fog signals. Only two acknowledged our VHS hailing. The two power boats were running on plane with only 100 foot visibility. All would have been head-ons or very close had we also been blind.

The St Mary's River is the 50-mile transit from Lake Huron to Lake Superior & the locks. This all highly controlled space with many 1000 foot long ore carriers. AIS is pretty well necessary given our size & draft. Many places have nowhere to exit the channel so advanced planning is key.
Agreed. I've done the St. Mary's a number of times, including just last season when we sailed down from Lake Superior to Lake Ontario. The river is very tight in places, and AIS is great for timing the squeeze areas. Same went on the St. Clair and Detroit Rivers, although the St. Mary's is smallest.

As I say, we got pretty used to dealing with fog without RADAR while cruising Lake Superior. Most of my time was spent in the northern sections where few dare to tread , so the odds of meeting anyone was always slim. Only once did we come close to a collision in the fog, and that too was with a motorboat which was running full-tilt. With their engines screaming they couldn't hear us either (on horn, or VHF). RADAR would have been nice then, but we lived to tell the tale .
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Old 24-05-2015, 18:50   #44
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

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as my radar is antique jrcfunky, i am gonna mebbe replace it--radar finds th e approaching storms on occasion better than even my spider senses do..and that is damearly.....
i has ais iff i ever hook up with a puter jeenyusss, as nmea 2000 makes it possible on my current an dfuture gps .....
but my damneyeballs is bestest evvaahh tools i own, same old antique earbones...gut feeling, spidey sense, wtf ye wanna call it will keep ye from hitting a dark object in a dark moon night sail.....and keep ye far enough from rocks --watch for breakers..even far from shore of that jumping island you are passing
orthe panga fishing with no lights 20 miles from the puebla they came from.
once i have decent and actually functional radar, i might think otherwise....
except the pangas still wont show up...
ZEE,
Consider broadband if you get ready to replace. The range is shorter but the resolution is pretty good. We see birds fly-by in the fog and a person's head can be picked out against flat water. Maneuvering in a close marina, you can pick out inflated dinghys & pilings. Power consumption is very low compared to traditional radar. I don't know how it does on storm detection.
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Old 24-05-2015, 19:03   #45
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Re: Question - I know this will blow up!

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Agreed. I've done the St. Mary's a number of times, including just last season when we sailed down from Lake Superior to Lake Ontario. The river is very tight in places, and AIS is great for timing the squeeze areas. Same went on the St. Clair and Detroit Rivers, although the St. Mary's is smallest.

As I say, we got pretty used to dealing with fog without RADAR while cruising Lake Superior. Most of my time was spent in the northern sections where few dare to tread , so the odds of meeting anyone was always slim. Only once did we come close to a collision in the fog, and that too was with a motorboat which was running full-tilt. With their engines screaming they couldn't hear us either (on horn, or VHF). RADAR would have been nice then, but we lived to tell the tale .
Mike,
If you do the St Mary's again, take note at marker 9A just north of Detour Village. We were running the slot west of 9A and went aground on rock where our plotter & two charts showed 9-12 feet. It came up fast. I suspect a load of ballast got dumped near the marker during maintenance.

Pardon the off-topic post.
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