Practical Options for Marine Weather forecasts in remote areas

[eheffa]

Thanks Bill & everyone who has commented here.

This has been a very helpful discussion.

- evan.

[wrwakefield]

Originally Posted by eheffa

Thank you Bill.


These sorts of reports would be very useful and pretty much satisfy our needs. I'm not sure but with the 160 character limit and the way InReach limits email replies to those using their atypical specific "Reply" function, I am guessing the InReach would not work for this.

To use this service it looks like one would need a Sat Phone or the Iridium Go! setup. Your cost analysis is interesting. The choice for the Iridium Go! vs an Iridium Sat phone is not so simple seemingly.

Does you know if the Canadian marine forecast service has a similar FTP query? (I tried to find the equivalent functionality on the Canadian side & struck out.)

-evan

You are welcome, Evan. I'm glad you find some of our writeups useful.

RE: Canadian Wx forecasts: I am not aware of a Canadian FTP service, but the NOAA FTP server offers some Canadian reports. And those not available via FTP I fetch [using either UUplus or SailDocs] Canadian [BC] text reports of interest from:

https://weather.gc.ca/marine/marine_bulletins_e.html

Specifically, here are a few of the routine reports I pull when traveling in Canada [BC] as an example:

https://weather.gc.ca/marine/marine_...in=fqcn13.cwvr

NOAA FTP products for Canada Wx:
http://tgftp.nws.noaa.gov/data/raw/fp/fpcn50.cwvr..txt
http://tgftp.nws.noaa.gov/data/raw/fp/fpcn11.cwvr..txt
Etc..

RE: Iridium Go. It is a good product and we will likely grow into one in the future as our needs change.

We are full time users. Therefore our cost analysis is different from someone who can pause service for periods of time. Typically we spend US$490/yr for our Iridium minutes. [US$245 / 200 mins every 6 months; US-Canada only plan. If continually renew before minutes expire, remaining minutes roll forward - aging out in 3 years. (and rolled minutes are the first consumed— unlike our AT&T cell plan...)]

If we were using an Iridium Go with unlimited data for a year the cost would be US$1,668 [$139/mo for unlimited data]; $1,178 more than we currently pay for the services we use. So until we need a lot more time than we currently use, the GO isn't a good financial choice for us... for now... [Of course, I'm sure we could come up with all kiinds of ways to maximize unlimited Iridium data if we had a GO...]

[EDIT] I intentionally omitted the subscription cost for UUplus service [~US$1/day] because we would choose to use it with a GO as well.

If you get a GO, get multiple SIM cards. You can pause Go service and re-activate using a new SIM card for US$10 each and no reactivation fee. Otherwise, using the same SIM card has a US$50 reactivation fee...

As I mention in my page about our sat comms, we will always have a sat phone regardless for emergency voice comms. The GO SIM works in our Iridium 9575 phone and the phone uses the voice minutes on the GO plan. [I know you can make voice calls with smart phone using the GO, but that is a lot of batteries and devices that must be working in an emergency...]

As a side note, it is also worth mentioning data transfer rates are faster using the phone because UUplus uses Iridium's RUDICS data transfer service. RUDICS cannot be used via an IP device like a GO. I mention this to demonstrate how we do all this downloading for seemingly few sat phone minutes.

It is also worth mentioning- at least last I checked- the Iridium eMail software specific to the GO will only work on the GO. That means you cannot use it over your cell data or WiFi connection. No big deal if you have unlimited data, but UUplus allows us to use any internet connection- including sat phone. That is very valuable to us.

See my previously linked Sat Coms page for more details if interested...

Best wishes with your pursuit.

Cheers! Bill

[eheffa]

Thank you Bill.

This is extremely useful.

Since we are coastal cruisers as opposed to offshore sailors wanting to plan the best route through variable winds, our needs are much simpler. These coastal forecasts are pretty much all we need to plan our transits & decide whether we stay put or not.

Now it looks like I will need to do a careful analysis of the capabilities and costs of the various options; but, if I were to jump to conclusions, it looks like your current system offers the most bang for the buck. With prudent efficient usage, your setup offers a more versatile and cost effective platform than either the InReach or the Iridium Go.

This is clearly not a simple question but I have a lot more information and a wealth of resources to run with now.

Thank you very much.

- evan

[mbartosch]

The combination of Iridium GO with PredictWind is awesome in my opinion. We used this for a one year cruise which included two ocean crossings, and the detailed and accurate weather information we could get as often as we desired (usually twice a day on crossings) was invaluable. Would use it without hesitation next time.

[RobinScurr]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

NOAA bouy data is accessible with a standard browser (assuming you have Internet service).

See: https://www.ndbc.noaa.gov


NOAA bouy data can also be access by phone.

See: https://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/dial.shtml

NOAA buoy data can also be obtained via SMS text message with a free, private service set up by LimnoTech in Ann Arbor, MI.

The ... service can be accessed by sending a text message to (734) 418-7299 with only the station I.D. in the body of the message. Station id's for buoys contain all numbers and shoreline stations begin with a letter.

The service is provided free of charge. However, users may be charged a fee by their cell phone provider to send and receive a text message. LimnoTech, an environmental engineering consulting firm located in Ann Arbor, developed the beta service to increase access to marine weather conditions for the Great Lakes boating and fishing community. LimnoTech has been involved with the recent deployment of weather buoys in both St. Joseph and Holland, MI and is working on other projects around the Great Lakes to increase access to real-time observations.

Works from a cell phone and an inReach message!

[Xinqing]

I would not use Sirius as once you are north of Prince Rupert it does not work. The satellites are too low on the horizon. I recently bought a new car with Sirius pre-installed in Anchorage. Every 20seconds a lost signal message was displayed until I brought it back to the dealership to disable it.

Southeast AK is also famous for dead spots in reception. SSB is a great way to go but you may have to stick your nose out into an open area to get the best reception versus a fjord. Back when Loran was the navigation system of choice there was a dead zone between Prince Rupert and north of Ketchikan that made mariners rely on Dead reckoning and common sense.
It’s better these days by far but still requires the ability to read the barometer and clouds and trends when needed.

[Andrez]

Iridium Go and Predicta Wind good all over the world and no problems at high latitudes

[MJH]

I made numerous voyages to BC and one to Alaska on my San Juan 28 sailboat and can't remember any difficulty getting weather on Canadian VFH but I rarely dropped anchor in any of those numerous but beautiful deep fjords either. In 2015 I voyaged 35nm to the end of Bute Inlet (Waddington Harbor) and was the only boat there overnight. At that location on my Tayana Vancouver 42 sailboat with 60+' mast I had no reception on AM, FM, VFH, or SSB but was able to get a text message out to home via Skymate, a satellite communicator. The next day I proceeded to exit without current weather only to encounter 30+ headwinds, not uncommon in fjords. A year later that boat made a roundtrip to Hawaii with excellent SSB reception.


A sailboat will have some antenna elevation advantage for reception over MVs in most situations.


~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[eheffa]

Originally Posted by Xinqing

I would not use Sirius as once you are north of Prince Rupert it does not work. The satellites are too low on the horizon. I recently bought a new car with Sirius pre-installed in Anchorage. Every 20seconds a lost signal message was displayed until I brought it back to the dealership to disable it.

Southeast AK is also famous for dead spots in reception. SSB is a great way to go but you may have to stick your nose out into an open area to get the best reception versus a fjord. Back when Loran was the navigation system of choice there was a dead zone between Prince Rupert and north of Ketchikan that made mariners rely on Dead reckoning and common sense.
It’s better these days by far but still requires the ability to read the barometer and clouds and trends when needed.

Well there goes the Sirius Option...! (It wasn't loking like much of a contender after all this good discussion but; it's good to hear of your experience.)


Thanks.


-evan

[kvstein]

I use a Sat phone that calls OCENS. I can usually get through and then I can get all the weather I want for a reasonable price. I will not comment on the choice of sat phones or antennae as that would make me angry, but OCENS is great. Also the minute price of satellite air time is dropping rapidly.

[eheffa]

Originally Posted by kvstein

I use a Sat phone that calls OCENS. I can usually get through and then I can get all the weather I want for a reasonable price. I will not comment on the choice of sat phones or antennae as that would make me angry, but OCENS is great. Also the minute price of satellite air time is dropping rapidly.

Thanks kvstein...


It looks like Ocens is a good resource and perhaps even usable with the InReach - a more economical option. I will give this service a try in the winter before our next off-the-grid trip.


-evan

[ka4wja]

Evan,

Sorry I'm coming in here 2 weeks late, but believe I have the definite answer(s) for you...

The short answer is:

Your application is fairly easily solved by use of USCG HF WeFax and HF Voice Weather Broadcasts (of US NWS / NOAA Marine Weather Forecasts) from either/both Kodiak, AK and Pt. Reyes, CA...

Originally Posted by eheffa

We recently completed a 3 month cruise from our home waters of the Southern Gulf Islands to Alaska and back in our Nordic Tug 37.

I naively thought we would have good access to Weather Forecasts since we had our InReach Satellite device with us. As it turned out, the InReach device was almost useless when it came to weather forecasting. Whenever I attempted to get a marine forecast, it would return the message that I was not on a large enough body of water or ocean.

We were often in remote areas with limited to absent reception of local VHF marine forecasts. Thankfully, we could text family with the InReach device to get them to look up the forecasts online and text us back with the summary, but there were times when this was impractical and a real nuisance.

On our return, I emailed the InReach support and was essentially told that that Garmin is aware of this issue but has no immediate plans to fix it.

So, I am researching options to the InReach system.

I see three viable alternatives:


1. Ocens: Subscribe to Ocens and use the InReach to get Ocens forecasts in cryptic 160 character summaries for the areas we expect to transit.


2. SiriusXM: Buy & install hardware for SiriusXM Weather service (~$900-) to interface with our Furuno MFD, then subscribe to their Offshore Weather service at (gasp!) $55- /mo. (The Coastal subscription at $30- / mo will only give wind and wave forecasts for up to 3 hours in the future - you need to subscribe to their Offshore package to get 48 hour forecasts )


3. SSB weatherfax: Buy & Install a SSB radio and get weather forecasts via SSB radio to be displayed on iPhone or iPad.
Or simply listen to the HF Voice Weather Broadcasts...

This might be subject to restricted range and clarity when in tight fjords?
No, this should work well....actually better than most sat comm...but, if you are looking at sat comm, it must be Iridium-based...


We venture short distances offshore to cross capes etc. but we are not an offshore boat.

I wonder if people could comment on their personal experience with the above options and perhaps offer their suggestions to improve access to accurate and relevant marine weather forecasts.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome.


-evan

MV Tugaway

Again, I;m sorry I'm coming in here 2 weeks late, but believe I have the definite answer(s) for you...

Your application is fairly easily solved by use of USCG HF WeFax and HF Voice Weather Broadcasts (of US NWS / NOAA Marine Weather Forecasts) from either/both Kodiak, AK and Pt. Reyes, CA...

Although the radio distances covered here, 600 to 1000 miles, are not the "straight-up" angles of Near-Vertical-Incidence-Skywave, they are not the very low angles of long distance HF comms....especially on the lower bands of 2mhz, 4mhz, and 6mhz....so, the USCG HF Voice Broadcasts on 6501 (Kodiak); and 4426 and 8764 (Pt. Reyes) should work very well for you...even 13089 from Pt. Reyes should work during your daytime. And, the 2mhz, 4mhz, and 8mhz WeFax from Kodiak...and the 4, 8, and 12mhz WeFax from Pt Reyes, should work...all depending on time of day... Although low angle HF reception in very steep canyons and fjords isn't always easy, these particular locales and freqs should work well...certainly better than trying sat comm in a steep canyon / fjord...



Please see these pages for the detailed information on broadcast schedules and frequencies.

USCG HF Voice Weather Broadcasts
USCG HF Voice



USCG HF WeFAx Weather Broadcasts
NWS Radiofax
Marine Radiofax charts



Kodiak, AK Charts, Schedule, Freqs, and latest briefing
Radiofax Charts - Kodiak, AK

http://tgftp.nws.noaa.gov/fax/hfak.txt

http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/marine/alaskabrief.shtml




Pt. Reyes, CA Charts, Schedule, Freqs, and latest briefing


Radiofax Charts - Pt. Reyes, CA

http://tgftp.nws.noaa.gov/fax/hfreyes.txt

Northeast Pacific WX Briefing Package


While I will always recommend a complete HF radio install for all offshore boats, for coastal cruising it's usually a waste of money....but in your case, it might be the easiest and actually best solution....allowing you both the access to the weather info/forecasts that you desire, and ability to call/talk to others outside of VHF radio range....and of course, gives you long-range
Safety or Distress signaling capability...

M802 Single Side Band (SSB) - Features - Icom America

Icom SSB Radio Kits & Components


Now, the "requirement" to spend $2500 to $3000 on a complete HF-DSC-SSB-Radiotelephone system / installation might sound like a significant investment (and it is, especially for a 37' boat)....but be aware that you can use a simple, inexpensive receiver (~ $100 to $150) and a simple, cheap wire (or whip) antenna, to receive these signals....although, it will take some of your time learning the proper techniques, it can be done (and is done by many budget-minded cruisers, worldwide)...if you take the time to learn how it all works, and reduce/eliminate your on-board RFI, this can be a reasonable and cheap solution for you...


There are some discussions here about "SSB Receive Only", etc....please see links in these stickies....
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-198305.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-133496.html



More details later, if needed.....but, 'til then allow me to relate a personal story to show you the ease of how this can be done...

Back a decade or two ago, my brother (a charter boat captain and one of the least "tech savvy" guys on the planet) was doing some deliveries to/from US mainland and the Caribbean, and wanted some way to get weather offshore on many of the boats without HF-SSB radios....I sent him a ~ $120 Sangean portable shortwave receiver (which had a "BFO" allowing reception of SSB signals), as well as a simple set of instructions (about 3 to 4 steps, and a paragraph or two explaining stuff)....he sat in the cockpit of his Tayana in the Caribbean, unwrapped the package and followed the instructions (all the while being laughed at by 3 of his fellow captains, who all said "it'll never work")...turning the radio on at the broadcast time, and tuning it to the frequencies I wrote, he was listening to the USCG HF Voice Weather Broadcasts from > 1500 miles away, using just the short 3' whip on the top of the radio....when he clipped the external antenna wire to a stay, he heard them loud and clear on two different channels....he used this radio and procedures for about 10 years, when doing deliveries....only troubles he had was some boats had a lot of noise/static (on-board RFI)...



I hope this helps...

Again, if you need more, just ask...

Fair winds..

John

[eheffa]

Thank you for this thorough summary of the SSB option and the many good resources you have linked me to.



I clearly have my homework cut out for me and will need to dig deeper into this topic to understand the practicalities. It's also quite apparent that I should take a marine weather course to better understand the GRIB and weather data. ( I would love to seize a weather window and cross the Gulf of Alaska to explore Prince William Sound...)



At first blush though, since I have a non-flybridge Nordic Tug powerboat with a fairly low profile, I am wondering how short an antenna can I get away with... Are there 8 foot whips that can do the job and still have acceptable performance?




Thanks again for these resources.


-evan

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by eheffa

I am wondering how short an antenna can I get away with... Are there 8 foot whips that can do the job and still have acceptable performance?

While an 8-ft whip is pretty short for a marine SSB transmitter (the typical autotuner may not be able to find a match on the lower frequencies), it should do OK as a receive-only antenna.

You will need to find a good grounding point as well. There are a few threads here about ground systems. For a receive antenna the ground can also be non-ideal and still be perfectly serviceable, but you should try to keep the ground away from sources of on-board interference. This is what usually causes problems with reception, not a less-than-perfect antenna system.

[ka4wja]

Evan,
You're welcome!

1) And, as I reread things a bit...I'm going to recommend you actually try an inexpensive portable shortwave receiver (such as Sangean 909 or Sony 7400, Katio, etc.)....as long as it covers the HF bands from 2mhz thru 17mhz, and has a "BFO" or "SSB switch"...
This will allow you get a good feeling for things without spending much $$$...


Now, if you've got the $3000 budget, then go for it and buy / install the M-802/AT-140....but, if you're like most of us, and have a budget, then try the small portable receiver first...


2) And, as for antennas....sorry I'm usually dealing with sailboats....so, now that I'm clear on your boat, the good news is that you have an excellent opportunity to use what most of us on sailboats don't --- a horizontal antenna --- which is great for "regional" and "short-haul" skywave comms!!

Originally Posted by eheffa

Thank you for this thorough summary of the SSB option and the many good resources you have linked me to.

At first blush though, since I have a non-flybridge Nordic Tug powerboat with a fairly low profile, I am wondering how short an antenna can I get away with... Are there 8 foot whips that can do the job and still have acceptable performance?

If you can rig a simple piece of wire (of just about any gauge) of approx 20' long, in some semblance of horizontal or sloping and attach your radio to that, either with a short piece of coax or directly....you'd have a very nice HF receive antenna for your application....

To be clear, this would be for receive only, not for transmitting!!

And, while longer (30' - 35' would be ideal), you could probably get away with being a bit shorter....but, I'd try to at least be 12' - 15' long horizontal or sloping....

I'm not familiar with your Nordic Tug's deck layout, but assume you could rig such an antenna...perhaps using a bow flagstaff as one attachment point, and the "light mast" / "radar pole" / or bridge roof, etc. as the other point???
This would give you a pretty decent HF receive antenna for covering the 400 to 1200 mile comms range on 2mhz thru 12mhz...

You can use just about any decent stranded, insulated copper wire, even some scrap wire for free, as a test....
For a permanent install, I'd recommend some decent insulated "flex-weave" stranded copper antenna wire (such as from Davis RF)....or if you want a "offshore rigged" antenna use SS lifeline wire for your permanent set-up...
(but, try with just some scrap wire, or 25' of Home Deport wire, etc...)


To give you an idea, I use a 22' long aft lower shroud (insulated from the rig) as my WeFax receive antenna / HF-DSC receive antenna....it is shared by my Furuno FAX-408 and my M-802 ("DSC Rec Antenna")...and it works great!! {fyi, my ~ 65' long main backstay antenna does work better on the lower frerq bands...4mhz thru 8mhz}





3) As for homework...
If you have a spare few minutes, no more than a hour or so, you can watch some Youtube videos and learn just about all you need...


But, before you do that, allow me to clarify some important things...

---- GRIB files / GRIB charts are the raw computer model data, that has not been interpreted by any human...and many cruisers further hinder themselves by only getting GRIB's for one computer model (such as GFS) rather than multiple models...
---- GRIB files are requested by a transmission (whether by HF radio or sat comm) and then downloaded by you when you receive the requested e-mail...(you must have a way to ask for the charts that you want)

---- WeFax Charts are the synoptic charts drawn by humans (in our case, seasoned, experienced, marine meteorologists) using all the multiple computer model data, upper air charts, upper air soundings, ship and coast station reports, etc. etc., as well as their years of experience...
(and for the US NWS / NOAA, each forecaster signs their own name to each forecast, placing their personal reputation on-the-line each day...)
---- WeFax Charts are broadcast to everyone (for free) on multiple frequencies, from multiple stations, multiple times each day....but they are sent on their schedule (as they are ready for timely dissemination), not on your schedule.....so, if you miss a chart, oppss, you'll have to wait 6 to 12 hours to get it (although it will be 6 to 12 hours newer / up-to-date)

Originally Posted by eheffa

Thank you for this thorough summary of the SSB option and the many good resources you have linked me to.

I clearly have my homework cut out for me and will need to dig deeper into this topic to understand the practicalities. It's also quite apparent that I should take a marine weather course to better understand the GRIB and weather data. ( I would love to seize a weather window and cross the Gulf of Alaska to explore Prince William Sound...)

While most of these videos are destined for offshore sailing and deal primarily with offshore weather access, and long-range HF comms, they WILL also apply to you in a remote area, even if you're coastal...

Watch 'em in order thru the playlists, and they will make sense...but, of course you can skip the videos that don't apply to you and/or are too boring...

Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY


Maritime HF Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


HF-DSC Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX


Icom M-802 Instruction Videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...rC-8QKVyMb4tVr


VHF-DSC
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...J6QugtO2epizxF


Please forgive any abrupt edits, as I did these all by myself....and understand that these are all done, LIVE, as it happens, in the real-world, on-board a real offshore cruising boat....with no script, no director...just me and my camcorder...

And, fyi, you can also download any videos of importance from Youtube, save 'em on your computer and play them as you need/desire when away from internet connectivity....(I use savefrom.net it's free plug-in, and works well)

Oh, and for fun....have a look here too...
Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY



I hope this helps you with your homework...

Fair winds..

John