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Old 18-05-2013, 19:17   #286
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I am sorry but that is just false BS.

You tell that to the wife of the fireman who dies trying to save lives in a burning building or the solder who falls on a grenade to save his buddies!

Closer to home, tell that to the cruisers who help other cruisers.

I would suggest you are missing the lesson - selfish humans will ruin a public commons but moral ones can maintain one.
Yes Evans , but the parable illustrates that in the end the public commons, still gets fenced in , and annexed . Ie while there are many demonstrations of individual selflessness, overall there isn't.

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Old 18-05-2013, 19:21   #287
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Re: Please turn your AIS off when docked/moored/anchored

^^ Perhaps in mainstream western culture that is unfortunately mostly true. But it is not universally true of human culture and historically has not been and does not have to be true of the cruising community.

Just as an example, somewhat close to my home, the amish manage to maintain public commons. Traditional communities in Fiji managed for centuries (And a few still do), until western culture invaded.

And whatever you think of this . . . are you going to use it as an excuse to throw plastic in the ocean - when no-one will see if you do or don't?
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Old 18-05-2013, 19:28   #288
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^^ Perhaps in mainstream western culture that is unfortunately mostly true. But it is not universally true of human culture and historically has not been and does not have to be true of the cruising community.

Just as an example, somewhat close to my home, the amish manage to maintain public commons. Traditional communities in Fiji managed for centuries (And a few still do), until western culture invaded.
While this is now a philosophical point and most interesting. I don't think the analogy is appropriate to your AIS problem. What you are describing is a basic fault of Class B systems and the deficiencies in the Protocols and technologies behind it.

We can preach from the pulpits about the immorality of out of wedlock sex ( sorry I mean leaving your AIS on) , but people do what's easy , or just because they want to. so , moralising aside , a better solution is a practical solution that mitigates your problem for you.

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Old 18-05-2013, 19:31   #289
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^^ Perhaps in mainstream western culture that is unfortunately mostly true. But it is not universally true of human culture and historically has not been and does not have to be true of the cruising community.

Just as an example, somewhat close to my home, the amish manage to maintain public commons. Traditional communities in Fiji managed for centuries (And a few still do), until western culture invaded.

And whatever you think of this . . . are you going to use it as an excuse to throw plastic in the ocean - when no-one will see if you do or don't?
I don't dump plastics , but obviously large sections of humanity do ( including some of your ' traditional' ones ) QED

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Old 18-05-2013, 19:36   #290
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Re: Please turn your AIS off when docked/moored/anchored

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
but people do what's easy , or just because they want to.

Sad, and I personally don't accept that. I don't accept it in my work teams and I don't accept it in my friends, and I try to help new cruisers understand that that is not the way to act in the cruising community.
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I don't dump plastics , but obviously large sections of humanity do ( including some of your ' traditional' ones ) QED
No, my point was that EVEN IF you accept this dismal view of humanity, you and I should not accept it as an excuse to act badly. We should still 'do the right thing' even if the entire rest of the human race is not.
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Old 18-05-2013, 19:42   #291
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow but people do what's easy , or just because they want to. Sad, and I personally don't accept that. I don't accept it in my work teams and I don't accept it in my friends, and I try to help new cruisers understand that that is not the way to act in the cruising community.
Very admirable it is too , Evans, however large groups of society, including cruisers , don't see it that way , therefor " appealing" to them is tilting at windmills. A more practical solution has to be found and that's involves you adjusting your behaviour ( or equipment /settings/filters) etc to achieve an outcome that helps you with the problem,

Not to mention that pare numbers of sailors do not identify with the " cruising community "

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Old 18-05-2013, 19:44   #292
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No, my point was that EVEN IF you accept this dismal view of humanity, you and I should not accept it as an excuse to act badly. We should still 'do the right thing' even if the entire rest of the human race is not.
Of course , but the " masses" cruising or otherwise don't act like that , taken as a whole , they act in their own interests , whatever that may be.

I'd like to live in your Utopia, however right now I can't afford the fuel costs to get there !!!!

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Old 18-05-2013, 19:46   #293
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Re: Please turn your AIS off when docked/moored/anchored

^^ as I have said repeatedly . . . I understand how to filter. I do filter. I do know how to look out of the cockpit and usually determine who is the stand on vessel. I do know how to call people on the vhf and agree on how to pass. I do actually manage to sail and cope and have not hit anyone recently. I sailed this morning and did not turn the AIS on and amazingly did not hit anyone (Irony on here for anyone who did not notice).
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Old 18-05-2013, 19:53   #294
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^^ as I have said repeatedly . . . I understand how to filter. I do filter. I do know how to look out of the cockpit and usually determine who is the stand on vessel. I do know how to call people on the vhf and agree on how to pass. I do actually manage to sail and cope and have not hit anyone recently. I sailed this morning and did not turn the AIS on and amazingly did not hit anyone (Irony on here for anyone who did not notice).
Great , no problems then and this thread can peacefully expire

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Old 18-05-2013, 20:04   #295
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Re: Please turn your AIS off when docked/moored/anchored

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I would suggest you are missing the lesson - selfish humans will ruin a public commons but moral ones can maintain one.
oh, man...
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Old 18-05-2013, 20:07   #296
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Very admirable it is too , Evans, however large groups of society, including cruisers , don't see it that way , therefor " appealing" to them is tilting at windmills.
However the flipside of this is that large groups of people do see it evans way, myself included. Every little bit helps even if their will always be selfish or ignorant people who will do as they please until regulation forces them not to.
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Old 18-05-2013, 20:28   #297
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Re: Please turn your AIS off when docked/moored/anchored

I am very disappointed with the AIS knowledge demonstrated here on CF. People who know a bit about it are incapable of communicating that in an understandable way to the rest and I just can't seem to accept that. I am not a native English speaker but others are and don't get much further than me.

So I'm gonna try a WAKE UP call. Here's picture of my AIS screen aboard Jedi as it was in January 2008, which is more than 5 years ago:

All of that is class-A targets, as am I there in the middle. Check out the range rings and the number of targets in front of me. I am doing 7.7 knots over ground and am monitoring two ships (right side of screen), the AS Pegasus and the TELO. You see square corners drawn around them on the plotter. You can also see the Pegasus is turning to port at 3.6 degrees/minute. She is doing 18.3 knots over ground and turning into me so making me nervous.

Now check out the alarms which are indicated by red colored ships instead of green: NONE. NO ALARMS. January 2008. Are alarms active? you bet! Now check that red area off my port bow. When I go there, I will get alarms. Let that sink in.

It's pure nonsense to state that advanced filtering software does not exist. You just don't know it's there and you didn't buy it. I did, no problems for me.

p.s. check the buttons on the bottom, incl. the SoG > 0.3 knots, the class-A only etc. Also confirm the number of targets: 147

Here's the picture as I just emerge out of this rats nest of big Panamax ships: still no alarm! (and Pegasus already anchored, see it how fast the commercial guys are!?)


Everybody can have this: it works with all AIS receivers and transponders. Just a little piece of software.
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Old 18-05-2013, 20:32   #298
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Re: Please turn your AIS off when docked/moored/anchored

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However the flipside of this is that large groups of people do see it evans way, myself included. Every little bit helps even if their will always be selfish or ignorant people who will do as they please until regulation forces them not to.
I'm afraid that regulation will force us to have active transponders at all times rather than turn them off. They want to watch you, don't want to see you go dark.
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Old 18-05-2013, 21:35   #299
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Re: Please turn your AIS off when docked/moored/anchored

A "Commons" can take many forms.

Here's a hypothetical example with elements a few might recognise:

A building collapses, trapping people in the debris.

The rescuers are trying to find the people who are in immediate need of rescue.

They ask those victims who are not in that situation to refrain from calling out.

They ask this so they can hear the people who are in a truly serious situation, and either cannot call out, or are so comprehensively trapped they cannot easily be heard.

Player One says "Bugger that for a joke, I am in a serious situation – I'm supposed to be somewhere else: I'M OVER HERE ! GET ME OUT "

Player Two is a small child, and the idea of restraint for any reason, least of all for the benefit of others, has not yet taken root. "I WANT MY MUMMY !"

Players Three has undealt-with authority issues, Player Four is a member of the local aristocracy, Player Five runs a powerful Labour Union, Player Six has strong libertarian beliefs, and Players Seven through Twelve have equally compelling reasons to find staying quiet to be a less than compelling proposition.

The rescuers end up deeply traumatised by the whole event.

It doesn't help that the only victims they were able to reach, in time to find them alive, had no immediate need of their services.

And many of these victims make them feel like the villains, for having the confounded presumption to ever have asked them to shut up.

The rescuers relinquish their membership of civil defence rescue.

The people who "pissed on the commons" in this situation, are unlikely to suffer any consequences.

Society bears these, rather than individuals.

I say this because these particular live rescuees are unlikely to require rescue at some future date ... so they have no reason to question their behaviour.
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Old 18-05-2013, 23:06   #300
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Re: Please turn your AIS off when docked/moored/anchored

This afternoon a thought came to me in the shower: what if some bright spark decides to offer a boat security service, cheap or ad-supported, based on scraping marinetraffic.com every 15 minutes and sending an email if the position changes or the signal is lost? The only hardware required is a Class A or B transceiver on the vessel. The service could be supported on a single home computer with always-on internet, for at least a few thousand boats. Actually marinetraffic.com could offer this service to support the rest of the site. This would be an effective and inexpensive alternative to the current commercial systems (albeit more limited), even if the actual risk of theft is vanishingly small. Now THAT might play havoc with the AIS coverage in busy harbors.

Please don't shoot the messenger...

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