Nobeltec v10.5 Icon Problem

[ronbo1]

Upgraded to v10.5 from 10.0.002.
Noticed the boat's icon continually pointed 'up' (north) despite direction of travel.
Nobeltec responded acknowledging this defect and promised a v10.7 fix in a 'couple of months'. Nice to know they're working on it.

Ronbo

[ActiveCaptain]

In defense of Nobeltec, their entire company was recently purchased. The product manager and entire team is working really hard to identify and correct all problems in the product. They've been given good budgets and the team is very dedicated.

I'm testing some new capabilities for future versions. If anyone is having a critical issue with Nobeltec, I'd be happy to help you get additional support if you think the problems aren't being addressed.

[ronbo1]

Thanks Jeff! It's good to hear they are still a viable company. I guess there's a lesson there: don't jump at the latest upgrades, let someone else find the bugs.!

On another note...it appears Raymarine is shipping again after the recent purchase by FLIR. The one-day sale at Defender has the latest digital products available.

Ronbo

[St. Elsewhere]

Jeff, Active Captain, said:

If anyone is having a critical issue with Nobeltec, I'd be happy to help you get additional support

My issue is not really critical, but since upgrading to Nobrltec version 10, I have lost access to raster charts that I had with Passport, and the elderly Maptech product charts that worked with VNS v9. I see that Nobeltec v10.7 is now released. I hope that it has restored access to my raster charts for backup use.

Do you, or other Nobeltec users, know what raster charts can now be accessed from VNS 10.7? It would be really great if we could find a set of instructions for putting them to use again. The CMap vector charts are great, but they still have some places where data is missing, and the raster backups are still needed.

[sded]

One major critical issue with Nobeltec is that they removed the ability to use the USG vector charts, and charge for an add-on to use the raster charts. I am currently using version 9.2.2218 and expect never to buy anything from them again after well over 10 years as a customer. Even with all the bugs I have reported to them (before they canceled their user group so they didn't have to listen to the complaints anymore) I will just keep the old version around. Outrageous self serving behavior like that should not be rewarded! They are also behind the power curve again on Windows 7 (like they were on Vista). A long way down from Dave Steckler and co. Fortunately their Vista fiasco led me to Coastal Explorer which worked on Vista from the beginning and now works on Windows 7 from the beginning without even paying for an upgrade.

[St. Elsewhere]

Originally Posted by sded

charge for an add-on to use the raster charts.

sded,

I am not sure what the difference is in our situations, but I was not charged for the raster pack addon in VNS 10. I upgraded from VNS 9 for no cost, and I was given the raster pack addon at no cost when I asked them why it failed to run my raster charts. My current issue is that it has not previously run my Passport Canadian raster charts or my old MapTech raster charts. It does run the NOAA raster charts that I have loaded. My hope is that they are restoring more chart compatibility with the new v10.7 release.

It is also possible that I need a better understanding as to how to install the Passport charts. Nobeltec support people told me about a year ago that it would not run the old MapTech charts.

[sded]

I didn't do the upgrade, so just know what I read. I checked and it looks like you are right, that the upgrades from v9 includes a free raster pack. Of course the upgrades are not free like CE. Don't know whether this affects my Softcharts of Mexico, though. Looks like only new customers were charged for the raster pack, and the scope is ???. Vector USG charts are definitely gone, though, as are my older Passport charts. And the latest 10.7 at least appears to provide some Windows 7 support. With Vista, attempting to install the current version made it totally unusable. So maybe the new owners will attempt to do the right thing after all. Like:
1) Restore the USG vector chart capability. In fact, build a capability like CE has to automatically maintain the current editions of both the raster and vector charts.
2) Reinstitute the Nobeltec Users forum
3) Make sure that Windows version compatibility is maintained
4) Fix the many bugs instead of building more gee-whiz crap. Don't any of them actually navigate a boat with it? Like fix the upload and download of waypoints and routes to GPS so it is reliable and doesn't hang/crash the machine. And facilitate route editing to accomodate the many users who change their routes on the fly as they are cruising. Or the other stuff on the lists they solicited from me and then ignored. Maybe they are all fixed, since I haven't done the upgrade. And I couldn't do it easily now anyway because their credit card processing is also broken according to their website.

[sded]

Since you have upgraded, maybe you can tell me whether they ever fixed the routing issues below, for example. This is a 2005 post from their user forum (before it vanished) and addresses what I think are basic flaws in the way they do things.
"Below is a 2003 repeat (in response to a request from Nobeltec) of complaints that I have been sending them since 1998. All of the BS added to later versions does not make them more usable to me. These are usability issues that Nobeltec should be ashamed of! If there are still sailors aboard.
"Over the nearly seven years I have used Nobeltec products, I have
regularly asked for some changes to routing to make it more usable. So
it is time again to ask for the ones that have never been addressed.
1. Let me remove a waypoint from an individual route without removing
it from all routes.
2. Let me add an existing waypoint in the middle of a route, just like
I can at the beginning and end.
3. Make waypoints and marks common, so I don't have to remember why a
point I want to add doesn't show up in the mark table.
4. The problems above have led me to create multiple marks with the
same name and various versions of the same mark with different
names-this is a consistency problem to be avoided. Provide a way to
merge marks and waypoints into unique items without destroying all the
routes that they support.""
And another usabillity issue from 2007:
"In the Planbook, the
routes and marks are not sorted alphabetically as they were in previous version
and in the manual. The marks are sorted correctly in the chart table; the
routes are not but can be sorted by clicking the name column header."
None of these were fixed as of version 9.2.2218, and the removal of the vector charts and demise of the older Passport charts were a dealbreaker for me for further upgrades. Along with the other things listed as broken above, and other messages I sent that went nowhere.

[St. Elsewhere]

sded,

None of those items are problems currently, and possibly the issue of "multiple marks" is actually "operator error".

I routinely edit new routes while underway. The edits include adding, deleting, and moving waypoints. These things are quite easy to do. When moving the active waypoint with the autopilot is engaged care must be taken to avoid an excessive rate of turn.

The post you quoted seems to be using "marks" interchangeably with "waypoints". Marks are used to identify locations of points of interest or objects such as buoys, shipwrecks, marinas that you want to identify uniquely and to access without regard to routes that are selected. Waypoints are just the points you select to define a route. I do not name them, and a avoid using common waypoints in multiple routes so I have never experienced the issue described above in any Nobeltec version over the past 13 years.

There was a VNS release a couple of years ago that failed to alpha sort the routes in the planbook. It was fixed fairly promptly after I submitted a bug report.

I hope some of this is useful to you, and I hope that we can all benefit from our shared experiences.

[sded]

Good; sounds like the later releases solved a lot of problems. The problem of deleting a waypoint from a route causing it to be deleted from all routes was particularly vexing when trying to edit; the others were just minor nuisances. And I did mean "waypoint"-the version I am using only lets you insert a new waypoint interior to a route, not select an existing waypoint. And when you right click on the route, the popup says specifically "insert new mark" and "append new mark" for the route, so I am glad to hear the confusion has been resolved. What does your system say in the context menu when you right click on a route? "append new mark" causes an extension to the route so I can add an existing waypoint at the end. "insert new mark" causes a new (redundant) waypoint to be added at the point on the route I click, and I can then insert the lat/lon of an existing mark to create another copy to use-not really ideal. What I want to see is the ability to insert an existing waypoint in the route on the leg I right click.
Thanks;
Ed

[St. Elsewhere]

sded,

You might still have a problem of deleting a waypoint that is used in multiple routes. I rarely allow common waypoints in multiple routes. The only case where I have done that is where there has been a common starting point, such as exiting a marina, and in that case I have not had the need to delete it, so I have no applicable experience.

You are correct that when right clicking on the route gives a pop-up with a number of options and that the terms Insert New Mark and Append New Mark are used. If you click on the Marks tab in the planbook, they do not appear in the list. The Mark list only includes Marks created with the Mark tool, and these are objects that are not waypoints in routes.

"The ability to insert an existing waypoint in the route on the leg I right click" does not exist. I do not understand why such a feature is desired. Using the Route tool you can just drop waypoints down by moving the mouse and clicking where you want them, and it is very quick. If you click in an existing waypoint location, it asks if you want to use the existing waypoint in the new route though. If you say "yes" it would be common to both routes, and an issue for both if you later want to move or delete it. Such point do not appear in the Marks list either.

[sded]

OK; sounds like things have not changed that much. Still oriented toward recreating routes rather than editing old routes in a route library. I travel places (Mexico, California Channel Islands, ..) where the route often changes depending on weather and last minute decisions. I go lots of different places in some order based on some common stopover points, and find it more convenient to edit the active route than to keep creating new routes. Just makes a bigger route library otherwise. And with the reference routes I know they are surveyed for hazards, closure areas, etc. already. This Summer I will take trips of 2-4 weeks, and know things will keep changing. And spent 6.5 months in Mexico with lots of changes. So obviously can work around these VNS items; just noting they would make things more usable for me.
For the same reason, I may want an extra stopover along the way to a destination and the ability to insert it effectively into the working route is useful to me. But not essential. I can actually do these functions manually on my Horizon chartplotter, but then it takes a little effort to have VNS catch up-never got downloading of routes to VNS to work, so hope the latest XFerWiz is also improved.
I guess what I am really looking for is a simpler way to create a real "working route" as common in many GPS applications, and haven't had much success with getting better tools for it.
And the append and insert marks actually append and insert waypoints, as now? So "marks" and "waypoints" are still used interchangeably some places in VNS?
Sounds like alphabetizing is fixed, though.
Now if they would only bring back the old chart use capabilities...
Thanks for the information;
Ed

[SailFastTri]

Why pick on Nobeltec because they didn't design the program they way you would prefer it? Just use it within the design constraints. They don't need to consult with any user, and they certainly have the right to develop features the way they think best. You can vote with your wallet and apparently you did, SDED.

I too left them a few years ago in favor of Coastal Explorer. The final issue (of several) that pushed me over the brink was when Nobeltec withdrew S-57 support, after I paid for a prior upgrade only so that I could have S-57 charts without need to keep paying Nobeltec for chart updates. In Nobeltec's favor, they offered me one free chart update for my currently owned regions when I complained about this (and I appreciated it) but that didn't address the longer term issue of being locked into proprietary Nobeltec vector chart updates (Nobeltec charts are far superior to S-57 charts from NOAA, but I still wanted the freedom to use S-57).

Nobeltec has a great program but so does Coastal Explorer which has been a lot easier to live with than Nobeltec. Coastal Explorer's program stability and customer-friendly upgrade policy along with automatic online chart updates for raster and vector, along with more open support for third-party charts has helped quite a bit.

Along with this switch, I have switched to using raster charts more than vector, but that is not a problem because raster charts generally show more info.

[gegroves]

Nobeltec has just released VNS and Admiral 10.7. they are available for download from their web site. The laundry list of changes appears to address most of the recent concerns above. Especially relevant is the ability to use Win 7 and/or Vista. Maybe now I'll upgrade from Win XP.

[ActiveCaptain]

I've asked the product manager for Nobeltec to read over this thread. It's a holiday weekend so I'd like to give him a couple of days to get back and address the issues.