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Old 13-02-2012, 11:11   #1
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NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

We are doing the big shove off this fall so a major refit of Fairwind's systems are in progress. One upgrade is going to be her electronics going to a NMEA2000 based system. Last year I installed a Raymarine ST70 and X30 auto pilot system to replace our worn out Alpha. Trying to find out if the new auto pilot was NMEA2000 compatable I sent the following to Raymarine:
Subject
NMEA2000

Discussion Thread
Response Via Email (Jim R)
02/13/2012 09:06 AM
You are entering some "uncharted territory" for Raymarine products. You can certainly try this , but we can't guaranty everything will work or share data.
Customer By Web Form (Mike W..)
02/10/2012 03:29 PM
Jim,
I would like to make the ST70, X30 and E90W spurs off of the NMEA backbone. Try this JPG attachment.

Response Via Email (Jim R)
02/10/2012 01:53 PM
If you have an ST70 and the X30, then you already have a Seatalk ng backbone. You would not want a second backbone. The E90W will tie into the exist STNG backbone via a spur cable. I could not open your attachment.
Auto-Response
02/10/2012 12:15 PM
The answers to the following questions may be relevant to your question:
Customer By Web Form (Mike W..)
02/10/2012 12:15 PM
I have an existing ST70 autopilot controller and X-30 corepack. I would like to install a NMEA2000 backbone and add an E90W multi-function display. Would all of this work together? I have attached a proposed system using the Maretron design software, but have not added in my Raymarine components. Also, could I substitute the Raymarine transducer pods on this system and keep my existing transducers?

Question Reference #120210-000013
Product Level 1:
Autopilot Systems & Components
Category Level 1:
Installation or Interfacing Question
Date Created:
02/10/2012 12:15 PM
Last Updated:
02/13/2012 09:06 AM
Status:
Waiting

Big help, eh?
Does anyone have any experience integrating the Raymarine STNG systems with NMEA2000? I have been following Nicks upgrade to Jedi and he has sold me on Maretron and Furuno.

Your comments and advise would be welcome!

Mike
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Old 13-02-2012, 18:08   #2
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Firstly Seatalkng is NMEA2k, just with different connectors and the standard Seatalkng cable carries a legacy seatalk wire as well.

SO in theory Maretron systems will connect directly onto Seatalkng, there is an adaptor cable . Whats problematic is calibrating such sensors, it can't be done from the Raymarine MFD.

So in effect out of the box the St70, X30 and E90W are on a NMEA2k Backbone, whats your issue? No manufacturer can guarantee that any nmea2K device will actually share data, The certification process just confirms the device will operate on the bus , but not necessarily interoperate, but it should.
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Old 13-02-2012, 18:38   #3
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

I have an ST70 and X30 connected with STNG. Works fine. However the Maretron GPS200 which is NMEA2k is incompatible with the X30. The bus connections are not the problem. It is the logic in the X30. The X30 will accept nmea0183 RMC and RMB messages and will operate in Track mode. I assume it will also work with an E90W on the STNG bus. However when the GPS200 is connected to the bus, the autopilot drops out of Track mode with a "no navigation data" error message. Raymarine says the X30 is NMEA2k compatible, but not NMEA2K compliant. The PGNs from the Maretron GPS200 are confusing the X30. I suspect Raymarine is using proprietary PGNs to make their own components work. Raymarine recommended connecting to the gps with NMEA0183. The X30 autopilot is not ready for NMEA2k.

Just a heads up.

Chuck
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Old 13-02-2012, 18:44   #4
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckSK View Post
I have an ST70 and X30 connected with STNG. Works fine. However the Maretron GPS200 which is NMEA2k is incompatible with the X30. The bus connections are not the problem. It is the logic in the X30. The X30 will accept nmea0183 RMC and RMB messages and will operate in Track mode. I assume it will also work with an E90W on the STNG bus. However when the GPS200 is connected to the bus, the autopilot drops out of Track mode with a "no navigation data" error message. Raymarine says the X30 is NMEA2k compatible, but not NMEA2K compliant. The PNGs from the Maretron GPS200 are confusing the X30. I suspect Raymarine is using propritary PNGs to make their own components work. Raymarine recommended connecting to the gps with NMEA0183. The X30 autopilot is not ready for NMEA2k.

Just a heads up.

Chuck

Little of Raymarines gear is NMEA certified,, they got round it by using the seatalkng moniker. Only the protocol convertor is compliant.

The other thing as you point out is that NMEA2K compliance does not guarantee that PGNs will interoperate. Ray has started to list what PGNs do what in the latest gear but older stuff you can never be sure what will and won't interoperate.

Dave
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Old 13-02-2012, 18:52   #5
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

STng wiring is standard N2k electrically (and color code), the connectors are different. There is no 'extra' ST wire(s) in the cable.

I have (2) ST70, ST70 AP control and X-10 AP with Furuno NavNet3D, Furuno 330 N2K GPS, a Em-Trak AIS, and RM xcvr pods for wind, depth, speed, & temperature all on the same backbone. (plus 2 Actisense gateways)

Everything behaves OK (Furuno has a couple of bugs) but the RM units are not completely N2K compatible.

1) The RM xcvr pods are NOT N2k - they don't announce themselves on the network, Furuno does not recognize them. Technically per the spec, Furuno is correct. But, everyone else works with these units and so *could* Furuno if they decided to.

2) The RM ST70 displays and AP do not have the capability to chose the source of a data stream. What this equates to is the inability to have multiples of the same sensor on the network. Hence, they are not completely N2K compatible. From what I read, the newer i70 units are better in this area. So, no redundant GPS or depth sounder, etc.

Everything works, but with these units one can not truly expand N2K like it was envisioned.
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Old 13-02-2012, 18:52   #6
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

It seems there are a lot more compatibility problems with NMEA 2000 than with NMEA 0183. This is why when I upgraded my chart software to Nobeltec Trident I picked the NMEA 0183 version, and it just works. My GPS, AIS transceiver, AIS GPS, autopilot, autopilot fluxgate, VHF, engine data, Furuno MFD-BB, Young meterological box and its fluxgate and data logging computers all talk to each other. NMEA 0183 still seems to be the international language in common for most all marine electronics.

I think that when you buy marine electronics that do not do NMEA 0183 that you want to integrate with other brands, then you are asking for potential problems. NMEA 2000 is better from a technical standpoint but not from a practical standpoint. Unless you are buying all one brand that is designed to integrate from the beginning.
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:20   #7
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Quote:
STng wiring is standard N2k electrically (and color code), the connectors are different. There is no 'extra' ST wire(s) in the cable.
well that just shows my memory, went into the other room and looked at the gear, Its the special st70 sea talkng cable ( with the white ends and six pins that carries sea talk ) the blue backbone is 5 pins.

Im getting old.
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:23   #8
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Originally Posted by ChuckSK View Post
I have an ST70 and X30 connected with STNG. Works fine. However the Maretron GPS200 which is NMEA2k is incompatible with the X30. The bus connections are not the problem. It is the logic in the X30. The X30 will accept nmea0183 RMC and RMB messages and will operate in Track mode. I assume it will also work with an E90W on the STNG bus. However when the GPS200 is connected to the bus, the autopilot drops out of Track mode with a "no navigation data" error message. Raymarine says the X30 is NMEA2k compatible, but not NMEA2K compliant. The PGNs from the Maretron GPS200 are confusing the X30. I suspect Raymarine is using proprietary PGNs to make their own components work. Raymarine recommended connecting to the gps with NMEA0183. The X30 autopilot is not ready for NMEA2k.

Just a heads up.

Chuck
What is your chart plotter? How is it talking to the X30?

I'm asking as it's hard to believe there is that much difference between the X10 & X30.
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:29   #9
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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well that just shows my memory, went into the other room and looked at the gear, Its the special st70 sea talkng cable ( with the white ends and six pins that carries sea talk ) the blue backbone is 5 pins.
I remember this as I've cut into several times adding *normal* N2K connectors. This was painful enough that even an old person remembers it.

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Old 13-02-2012, 19:35   #10
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

actually interesting point DotDun, The X-30 doesn't use GPS PGNs one way or the other, it takes navigation data from the MFD. Something doesn't add up here. I know the E90W works with NMEA2K GPS units.
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:49   #11
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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actually interesting point DotDun, The X-30 doesn't use GPS PGNs one way or the other, it takes navigation data from the MFD. Something doesn't add up here. I know the E90W works with NMEA2K GPS units.
The X-30 will need SOG from the GPS as it's not included in N2K nav PGNs 129283/4.

It makes me think he is trying to feed the X-30 with 0183 nav data, including SOG from the CP and with the N2k connected it sees the Maretron GPS and is confusing it. RM doesn't offer the ability to pick and chose sources, a problem IMO.
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Old 13-02-2012, 19:54   #12
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Quote:
What is your chart plotter? How is it talking to the X30?

I'm asking as it's hard to believe there is that much difference between the X10 & X30.
I am using OpenCPN on a laptop connected to the X30 with an Actisense USB to NMEA 0183 gateway.

It would be terrific if I have overlooked something.

I also have an Actisense NMEA2000 to NMEA0183 gateway. Converting the RMB and RMC messages to NMEA2000 PGNs and inserting them on the STNG did not work either.

Chuck
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Old 13-02-2012, 21:07   #13
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
The X-30 will need SOG from the GPS as it's not included in N2K nav PGNs 129283/4.

It makes me think he is trying to feed the X-30 with 0183 nav data, including SOG from the CP and with the N2k connected it sees the Maretron GPS and is confusing it. RM doesn't offer the ability to pick and chose sources, a problem IMO.
I always thought that the x-30 used stw. But I agree I suspect there's conflicting sources of data. I know on e90w ray have stated that it's seatalkhs , then seatalkng, then seatalk. as you say the lack of source select is a continuing problem.

The no navigation data usually means no bearing and distance to waypoint information. The x-30 doesn't need either SOG or STW to actually work. ( I beleive)
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Old 13-02-2012, 21:18   #14
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Originally Posted by ChuckSK View Post
I am using OpenCPN on a laptop connected to the X30 with an Actisense USB to NMEA 0183 gateway.

It would be terrific if I have overlooked something.

I also have an Actisense NMEA2000 to NMEA0183 gateway. Converting the RMB and RMC messages to NMEA2000 PGNs and inserting them on the STNG did not work either.

Chuck
My guess is that the X30 prioritizes the STng over 0183 and when it see a GPS on the STng it stops listening to the 0183.

Out of curiosity, have you tried stopping OpenCPN from sending RMC? My thought is there is a small chance the X30 is getting confused because it sees GPS info on both interfaces (RMC includes GPS data), but this is a long shot.

I assume you have your Actisense updated to the latest firmware version (2.197)? I haven't tested this with my X10, but it is on my to-do list. Actisense has just recently been working the bugs out of converting nav data from 0183 to N2k, so it may or may not work. While testing this I would completely disconnect the 0183 from the X30.
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Old 13-02-2012, 21:26   #15
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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I always thought that the x-30 used stw. But I agree I suspect there's conflicting sources of data. I know on e90w ray have stated that it's seatalkhs , then seatalkng, then seatalk. as you say the lack of source select is a continuing problem.

The no navigation data usually means no bearing and distance to waypoint information. The x-30 doesn't need either SOG or STW to actually work. ( I beleive)
I agree that 'no nav' means btw/dtw. My guess is it's all or nothing on RM APs, it requires both GPS and nav from the same network and prioritizes the STng over 0183 so when it sees the Maretron, he stops listening to 0183.

My X10 won't 'track' without a GPS on the N2k. I can only assume it uses SOG for ROT decisions. I found this playing around one day by removing the N2k GPS and feeding the CP with 0183 GPS. The CP - X10 are talking via N2k, that's when the X10 refused to track with a 'no speed' error.
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