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Old 14-02-2012, 18:28   #31
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Chuck I know that Ray has got itself into serious muddles where similar information is presented on different ports, which different generation equipment dealing with it in different ways.

In latest equipment Ray have stated its sea talk hs->seatalkng->sea talk->0183 in descending order of priority, but I know this is not the case in older equipment. In particular I seen erratic behavior where conflicting data is fed in different ports. (down to a lack of source select)

The other issue that must be watched is the assumption that core packs do bridging, they don't to any extent and its only in the MFDs that any significant bridging takes place.

dave
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Old 14-02-2012, 18:30   #32
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Okay, I don't get it then... so this CP does not have that Seatalk-ng port? If not, then it all ends there I think, because I would have no hope of using converters to make it happen. The converters don't really like to convert 0183 data into PGNs that send nav data to AP's. I got that to work with the Maretron USB100 gateway and MaxSea. But MaxSea allowed me to configure which 0183 sentences to send for the AP so I could match that with the data wanted by the USB100 to do the conversion. You don't have that luxury with that RM CP I think..

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Nick,

My "CP" is Furuno Navnet3D on N2k. Works fine with RM AP on STng.

The trouble seems to be ChuckSK using 0183 to N2k thru the Actisense NGW-1. It's look like either an OpenCPN or Actisense problem. But I'm still not convinced that the RM AP isn't simply remembering the nav data source and refuses to recognize a new source, similar to what your Robertson AP did.
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Old 14-02-2012, 18:46   #33
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Originally Posted by ChuckSK View Post
Nick

I probably muddled things up. Currently my nav system consists of OpenCPN on a laptop sending nav data to the X-30 nmea 0183 port. The ST70 is connected to the X-30 with STng. There is no chart-plotter on the STng bus.

In an effort to get the Maretron GPS200 working on the STng bus I was trying to send OpenCPN nav data to the X-30 via the Actisense gateway and STng. This in an effort to avoid simultaneous nmea 0183 and STng nav data.

Unmuddled?

Chuck
Let's see; the ST70 is a display but might be able to activate nav to a waypoint? If so, does it send a N2K published PGN or a propriety RM PGN?

On your PC, you use an Actisense gateway to get N2K sensor data, right? Then may be you can define an extra serial port on which to repeat GPS 0183 data (and other sensors if needed) + nav data and connect that to the X30? May be you can even repeat nav data from the ST70 display? I can do that with MaxSea.

About what Dave wrote: the market is in a lot of motion right now. Navico, Furuno, Garmin and now also RM are all moving forward. After all the trouble I had with RM, I am now looking at their new displays that even show AIS targets and must admit they look like they have a clue again. Same for B&G which I just ditched... their new displays look like they have a future. The thing with these companies is that it took so long and they acted so arrogant all that time, until they had to go on their knees and then, suddenly, they rise again with products that they denounced before. I still sense the arrogance in terms like Seatalk-ng... next generation... just a clone of CAN/N2K, what a innovative next generation... and we comment on NMEA for being behind the times...

ciao!
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Old 14-02-2012, 19:03   #34
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Quote:
Let's see; the ST70 is a display but might be able to activate nav to a waypoint? If so, does it send a N2K published PGN or a propriety RM PGN?

the ST70 Autopilot head ( different from the ST70 instrument) controls the X core pack over either sea talk or seatalkng ( NMEA2k) using propriety PGNs or proprietary seatalk commands ( but not both).

While the X-30 is nmea2k Compatible , i.e. it will sit happily on a NMEA2K bus, Ray do not tell you what it will accept in the form of standard PGNs. So you have no idea what might work short of testing all the common PGNs. ( This would be easy enough with the N2K actisense gateway ( the N2k one not the 0813 to n2k) and their free software which is the best thing since sliced bread, closet thing to a poor mans Can protocol instrument.

Dave
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Old 14-02-2012, 19:04   #35
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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About what Dave wrote: the market is in a lot of motion right now. Navico, Furuno, Garmin and now also RM are all moving forward. After all the trouble I had with RM, I am now looking at their new displays that even show AIS targets and must admit they look like they have a clue again. Same for B&G which I just ditched... their new displays look like they have a future. The thing with these companies is that it took so long and they acted so arrogant all that time, until they had to go on their knees and then, suddenly, they rise again with products that they denounced before. I still sense the arrogance in terms like Seatalk-ng... next generation... just a clone of CAN/N2K, what a innovative next generation... and we comment on NMEA for being behind the times..

Well Nick all , with the exception of Mareton are sinners here and Mareton don't do a MFD/Chartplotter. we have Simnet, Seatlkng and then Furunos compatible but not certified nonsense.

Dave
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Old 14-02-2012, 19:16   #36
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Well Nick all , with the exception of Mareton are sinners here and Mareton don't do a MFD/Chartplotter. we have Simnet, Seatlkng and then Furunos compatible but not certified nonsense.

Dave
Oh yes I agree; it is just how they called it which makes me

I have not heard of any major trouble with SimNet or Furuno CAN bus like we have here with the X30. SimNet and Furuno at least use published PGNs as much as possible, with Furuno having some kind of lame excuse about not reading AIS targets from N2K.

What would be the reason that RM chose to use propriety PGNs when standard PGNs exist and are okay?

Another idea: can you send nav data to the ST-70 AP control head then?

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Old 14-02-2012, 19:19   #37
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Well Nick all , with the exception of Mareton are sinners here and Mareton don't do a MFD/Chartplotter. we have Simnet, Seatlkng and then Furunos compatible but not certified nonsense.

Dave
Furuno is very slow at fixing bugs. They have 2 moderate to major bugs (IMO) in 2.07 plus a half-ass implementation of AIS. I have a bad feeling about the upcoming NavNet TZ Touch, they could very well abandon those of us with NavNet3D. The MFD8/12 are very light on CPU. My MFD12 is the 'master' on the network with N2k connection, 4.8k 0183 with incoming wind data, 4.8k 0183 with DSC from VHF, and 38.4k 0183 from AIS (as they don't support AIS on N2k). My MFD8 shows the AIS targets but the 12 does not (yes, it's setup correctly in the installation menu). So, the MFD12 has the connection to the AIS data, he repeats it on the Ethernet so the MFD8 can see the targets, but he doesn't display the targets himself. These symptoms really point towards the MFD12 running out of gas.
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Old 14-02-2012, 19:23   #38
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Quote:
What would be the reason that RM chose to use propriety PGNs when standard PGNs exist and are okay?

Another idea: can you send nav data to the ST-70 AP control head then?

Mainly because the X-30 was released at a transition by Ray from sea talk to seatalkng. Remember Ray initially claimed seatalkng was an extension of NMEA2K and tried not to release any PGN information. As far as I know the X-30 doesn't respond to any standard PGNs, but Im not sure. I have one installed on the boat but never tried prodding with standard PGNs.

As to the ST70, the display will accept the common wind,water, speed PGNS ( but not documented anywhere) but all the autopilot control sequences are proprietary PGNs ( I believe this is the case with all the big four, to prevent control head swapping),

Dave
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Old 14-02-2012, 19:55   #39
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
What would be the reason that RM chose to use propriety PGNs when standard PGNs exist and are okay?

Another idea: can you send nav data to the ST-70 AP control head then?
Nick,

The ST70 MFD doesn't transmit any PGNs (except for the requisite control plane stuff), it's just a display. The ST70 AP Controller Display only talks to the X10/X30 AP Corepack via manufacturer proprietary PGNs. So when you push the 'track' button on the ST70 AP Controller, it tells the X10/X30 to look for the appropriate PGNs on the STng network. The X10/X30 will then look for and use the standard nav PGNs 129283/4/5, hence a Furuno NavNet3D can be the source of nav data for the X10/X30 via N2k.

Next you need to realize the RM emphatically states there can be only 1 of any type sensor/data source on STng. Thats 1 depth sensor, 1 wind sensor, 1 temp sensor, 1 STW sensor, 1 GPS, 1 Nav source, 1 mag variation, 1 AIS, 1 heading, etc.

What this buys RM is they don't need to have code that first looks for a source address, then for the data PGN. Their software simply listens to the network and displays the relevant data associated with a particular PGN. Example: wind data is PGN 130306, so their ST70 MFD looks for PGN 130306 and displays it, if there were (2) sensors spitting out wind data, the poor ST70 display would be bouncing all over trying to display both sensors. So there is no UI to tell the ST70/X10/X30 to use a particular source for nav or gps data.
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Old 14-02-2012, 20:17   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun

.....

What this buys RM is they don't need to have code that first looks for a source address, then for the data PGN. Their software simply listens to the network and displays the relevant data associated with a particular PGN. Example: wind data is PGN 130306, so their ST70 MFD looks for PGN 130306 and displays it, if there were (2) sensors spitting out wind data, the poor ST70 display would be bouncing all over trying to display both sensors. So there is no UI to tell the ST70/X10/X30 to use a particular source for nav or gps data.
Yes the problem known as source select. Another area NMEA over looked. There are source select issues with all the big four I beleive

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Old 14-02-2012, 20:30   #41
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Yes the problem known as source select. Another area NMEA over looked. There are source select issues with all the big four I beleive

Dave
There is no source select problem with my Furuno MFD12, my Simrad AP25, Maretron DSM-250 or my MaxSea TZ. My Furuno RD-33 does have a problem with it.. it selects one source, allows me to change to another source (like 2nd GPS) but then keeps displaying the first source, i.e. it's bugged.

When I switch off the GPS used by the Furuno MFD, it will sound the alarm for a minute, then switch to secondary GPS. The Simrad AP25 will sound alarm, then needs a SimNet bus reset before switching to alternative source. But... the new version that Mark installed (AP28 IIRC) does this automatic.

ciao!
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Old 15-02-2012, 11:30   #42
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Wow! What a goldmine of information. Thanks Dave, Nick and DotDun.

I have an N2k network set up on my dining room table. It includes the Maretron GPS200, an Actisense NGW and an Actisense NGT. The NGW and NGT are connected to a laptop running OpenCPN and NMEA Reader.

With a route activated on OpenCPN, RMB messages are sent to the NGW and on to the N2k bus. I can monitor the N2k bus with the NGT.

Here are the PGNs on the bus now. The list looks clean.

Click image for larger version

Name:	testPGNs.JPG
Views:	135
Size:	51.7 KB
ID:	37431

With the additional clarity provided by you experts, I am going to try again.

Chuck
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Old 23-02-2012, 13:28   #43
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

I've done some more playing around with N2k and RM X10 AP, including discussing with RM tech support, or better stated, trying to discuss with RM tech support.

The official word from RM support is that if you have a non-RM navigator, interface to the X10 with 0183 only as they don't support non-RM N2k. But they do support a RM navigator interfacing with the X10 via STng.

From what I can tell via observation, the X10 supports PGNS 129283/4 as long as the BTW is sent referenced to magnetic. It appears to not support BTW referenced to true. I was trying to get RM support to admit to this, but of course they like to hide behind the, 'tell me you equipment and I'll tell you if we support your scenario' line of crap. (It's amazing how you can spend thousands of dollars with a company and they treat you like this).
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Old 23-02-2012, 18:15   #44
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

My understanding is that the current "X" series , while NMEA2K "compatible" is not interoperable. i.e. it needs specific proprietary PGNs to operate with the head unit.

Dave
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Old 23-02-2012, 18:34   #45
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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My understanding is that the current "X" series , while NMEA2K "compatible" is not interoperable. i.e. it needs specific proprietary PGNs to operate with the head unit.

Dave
Correct, I don't believe any manufacturers control unit to course computer protocol is 'open'. We're trying to get the RM X10 to work with N2k navigators/chart plotters taking N2k PGNs for BTW/DTW/XTE.
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