New iPhones and the imminent death of the MFD

[Simi 60]

Take your own power bank if you must have extra non essential toys
Not hard

https://www.techradar.com/au/news/po...ommend-1291966

[Tillsbury]

I have to say, I've only once sailed with extra "crew" in the last twenty years, and it was a bit of an eye-opener. Now that everyone has their own chartplotter and weather forecasting, everyone's a skipper and navigator (or so they think). In many ways I preferred it when there was the Shipping Forecast on the radio and a chart on the chart table.

[DeValency]

Interesting and some funny comments in the entire thread...

• charging sockets: With my major refit, USB ports were added throughout - 5 in the cockpit and 2-4 in each cabin. I can turn off the guests circuit (that also has a limiting 15A breaker) if necessary, but otherwise, they’re all welcome to charge phones, tablets, vhfs etc. - thanks god hairdryers are not yet USB charged.

• 220/115VAC outlets are originally installed everywhere. Protected by breakers and limited by the 6Kw inverter when off the grid. I do request guests to ask me first if they want to connect to the domestic outlets.

• Have also I stalked a separate 12VDC circuit with waterproof sockets throughout, including cockpit, deck etc. to operate tools, pumps, flood/search lights and other temporarily needed devices - this is of course disabled for guests use.

• MFD/tablet - I love the new options for using tablets, phones etc as repeaters to the main Raymarine Axiom MFD at the nav station. The cockpit has a set of standalone instruments displays (mostly B&G) and two iPad based repeaters. I can change the tablets display content by controlling the nav station mfd using a remote control keypad at the cockpit. Very convenient and low cost setup.
- so the iPad also displays the Radar, AIS, autopilot, instruments etc - as the mfd repeater.

• frozen lithium batteries - a problem... in the cockpit iPad docking station I plan to install a 12V warming pad behind the iPad mounting surface. Hope it will work... it works great at my home shower mirror to eliminate fog...

And there’s so much more! We are lucky to have all these multi purpose comm. devices and the new apps provided by the instrument vendors.


QUOTE=Smokeys Kitchen;2978625]I actually had this happen to my iPad w/Navionics on it, twice this summer while were sailing. It wasn't unnerving, as we use an E80 as our primary tool, but did give me pause for thought about what I will use in the future when the E80 gets replaced.

Also - the iPad will not display our radar, and that is an essential tool for me.

The ability of the iPad (or any tablet device) to vary the scale very quickly for route planning and visibility is better by far than my E80, but I would not use any tablet in place of a robust MFD[/QUOTE]

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I expect the skipper to be a prudent sailor and to be able to accommodate the mobile device charging needs of his crew.

I don't put the responsibility for my life in someone's hands unless I feel my life is safe in their hands.

If the skipper can't/won't accommodate charging a crew's mobile device (that may be needed to obtain weather, navigation, or personal communication), I don't want to be on that boat.

No, yes, no.


1. If crew show up with a bunch of stuff that hasn't been coordinated in advance they simply cannot expect that they will be able to charge.



2. Absolutely. The skipper is responsible for the safety of crew and boat, and no one should sail with a skipper s/he feels is not capable of upholding that responsibility.


3. Absolutely not. If the skipper does not have a robust plan for weather and navigation why are you sailing with him or her? What kind of skipper won't have navigation tools in hand. Do you seriously expect a skipper to find you bringing something unknown and unvalidated a happy accident?



I'm a bit more methodical than most delivery skippers, in part because of the crew pool I draw from.



When an opportunity goes out (first to my own candidate list, then to OPO members, and then--if needed--over social media, including CF sometimes) I sort the responses. And put together a short list for telephone interviews; sometimes the boat owner participates and sometimes not. Everyone understands (because I tell them) that the purpose of the call is to use the resume as a tool to promote discussion from which I will make a subjective assessment of the candidate's judgement. As I tell them, I can teach people to sail but I can't teach them to make good decisions. That isn't to say a capable and experienced sailor doesn't have an advantage, s/he does. Final decisions are made and we start preparations.



Lots of work goes into preparation including a daily email from me to the team with a copy to the owners. There is a topic of the day. It should be no surprise that one is personal electronics. I tell them what I have and what I'm bringing and why I'm bringing each thing. I go over my understanding of our options on board (a surprising number of owners miss some things - either outlets they forgot about, or some ship system that dominates a port). Crew have an opportunity to stick their hands up about what they are bringing and what their needs are. This is often when I find out about CPAP machines. *sigh* Why it doesn't come up more often when we talk about medical issues I have no idea.



Flexibility depends on the boat. No, no one may unplug my go kit to charge his or her phone. No, no one can put a triplex adapter in a cigarette power plug. Leaving the inverter on all the time may or may not be feasible but we can almost always have "charging time" each day for a while unless there is a charging system casualty.

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

When asked to crew I interview the skipper and inspect the vessel.

I absolutely agree that crew candidates should interview the skipper. Most of my crew constituency at least know of me. The give and take of stories during the telephone interviews often draws out a few more questions.



Vessel inspection is problematic. I'm based in Annapolis. You're up around Lake Ontario. The boat is in Martinique to be delivered to Newport. Are you going to fly down and look at it? While you're doing that I'll have moved on down my list.



I do my best. I try to get most recent survey reports. I talk in depth to the owners. I consider all that due diligence. I've only walked away from a couple of boats when we finally got to the boat. One had two portable generators and three trash pumps running on deck to keep it from sinking. *sigh* The owner had conveniently failed to mention that problem, as had the marina when I called them ahead of time (I always check in with marinas at both ends before I get on the first airplane).



It's possible that when we all get to the boat we'll find something that sends us home. Unlikely for my part of the market, but possible. It is remotely possible that a crew member will find something objectionable that I do not in which case he or she is absolutely free to leave - that's one of several reasons I staff as I do. I did have one crew member who was surprised to find no private cabin and private head and went home. The complete story requires adult beverages and may include language not suitable for mixed company. Anyone coming to the Annapolis Boat Show can buy me a drink and hear the story. *grin* I have no shortage of stories.

Originally Posted by cuthbert

I'm going the Furuno Wifi radar route with an ipad.

I've only used that radar once. I wasn't impressed. Panbo has a write-up on the radar. I think the concept is brilliant but execution is lacking. They may have improved it since I tried it. Panbo would probably list that.

Originally Posted by DeValency

Interesting and some funny comments in the entire thread...

• charging sockets: With my major refit, USB ports were added throughout - 5 in the cockpit and 2-4 in each cabin. I can turn off the guests circuit (that also has a limiting 15A breaker) if necessary, but otherwise, they’re all welcome to charge phones, tablets, vhfs etc. - thanks god hairdryers are not yet USB charged.

• 220/115VAC outlets are originally installed everywhere. Protected by breakers and limited by the 6Kw inverter when off the grid. I do request guests to ask me first if they want to connect to the domestic outlets.

• Have also I stalked a separate 12VDC circuit with waterproof sockets throughout, including cockpit, deck etc. to operate tools, pumps, flood/search lights and other temporarily needed devices - this is of course disabled for guests use.

• MFD/tablet - I love the new options for using tablets, phones etc as repeaters to the main Raymarine Axiom MFD at the nav station. The cockpit has a set of standalone instruments displays (mostly B&G) and two iPad based repeaters. I can change the tablets display content by controlling the nav station mfd using a remote control keypad at the cockpit. Very convenient and low cost setup.
- so the iPad also displays the Radar, AIS, autopilot, instruments etc - as the mfd repeater.

• frozen lithium batteries - a problem... in the cockpit iPad docking station I plan to install a 12V warming pad behind the iPad mounting surface. Hope it will work... it works great at my home shower mirror to eliminate fog...

And there’s so much more! We are lucky to have all these multi purpose comm. devices and the new apps provided by the instrument vendors.

All very reasonable and appears to be well thought out.

Originally Posted by Smokeys Kitchen

The ability of the iPad (or any tablet device) to vary the scale very quickly for route planning and visibility is better by far than my E80, but I would not use any tablet in place of a robust MFD

One of my concerns with tablet navigation is the touchscreen user interface. At least for my principle use case it's awkward at best and frustrating most of the time. It's just too fussy on a moving platform. MFDs with touchscreen and without physical buttons suffer from the same problem. Too many unintended consequences to missed and inadvertent touches, especially multi-finger. Everything takes longer than with buttons and knobs in a sea. Touchscreen MFDs at least usually have large virtual buttons. Nav on tablets and phones can be difficult. You can use them, and I have when primary nav failed, but it isn't fun and it degrades operational effectiveness. More stories to tell.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by DeValency

• MFD/tablet - I love the new options for using tablets, phones etc as repeaters to the main Raymarine Axiom MFD at the nav station. The cockpit has a set of standalone instruments displays (mostly B&G) and two iPad based repeaters. I can change the tablets display content by controlling the nav station mfd using a remote control keypad at the cockpit. Very convenient and low cost setup.
- so the iPad also displays the Radar, AIS, autopilot, instruments etc - as the mfd repeater.

I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the ability of the newer Ray and B&G (maybe others) plotters to repeat to devices using a proprietary app are wholly dependent upon the plotter itself. IOW, it does not make the devices themselves standalone. As you mention, great for convenience & relative low-cost, but if I'm correct then they add nothing to redundancy should the primary plotter itself fail. But then I suppose many also have standalone charting apps on their devices as backups, along with either built-in GPS or multiplexers that rely on the ship's GPS.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Exile

I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the ability of the newer Ray and B&G (maybe others) plotters to repeat to devices using a proprietary app are wholly dependent upon the plotter itself. IOW, it does not make the devices themselves standalone. As you mention, great for convenience & relative low-cost, but if I'm correct then they add nothing to redundancy should the primary plotter itself fail. But then I suppose many also have standalone charting apps on their devices as backups, along with either built-in GPS or multiplexers that rely on the ship's GPS.

You’re correct, the tablets/phones are useless without the MFD, unless said device also has nav software of its own and a built in gps.

[peter57]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Cmon guys, let's get back to what this thread is really about.
APPLE FAIL

Getting all excited about the latest stupidly overpriced iTard product when android has been doing it since 2017. (-;

I thought the thread was about mobile devices taking the place of MFD's
Not about tech Fan Boys

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by DeValency

The ability of the iPad (or any tablet device) to vary the scale very quickly for route planning and visibility is better by far than my E80, but I would not use any tablet in place of a robust MFD

I believe part of the issue confounding this thread, is that some are comparing old computer technology (chartplotter installed maybe 20 years ago) with new computer technology (today's or even vapourware mobile devices.)

Compare apples to apples.

Compare a current technology MFD to a current technology mobile device.

Or compare an old MFD to a similar era flip phone.

I understand that you understand the benefits of a modern MFD, but for those responding / watching who don't...

Today's standard MFD's are fast, powerful, and are way, way, way, more robust and reliable than any of todays standard mobile devices.

Installing charting software on one or more mobile devices is a great convenience tool to have and use where appropriate, but in no way shape or form is a direct substitute for a dedicated MFD.

We carry 3 mobile devices with charting software on our vessel.

Despite this, we just upgraded our 10 year old charplotter with a new Axion MFD.

Why?

Performance and reliability way over and above any of the mobile device!

Sorry, but I will call anybody on it, who will compromise safety while attempting to justify using a fragile mobile device designed for a 13 year old girls hip pocket, or a PC designed for an indoor desk or even worse, lap, to satisfy their inner geek to MacGyver something together that is no where near the same thing, or just to save a few bucks for more beer and cigarettes, vs installing and maintaining a robust MFD designed for the marine environment.

[BenBowSirocco]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I believe part of the issue confounding this thread, is that some are comparing old computer technology (chartplotter installed maybe 20 years ago) with new computer technology (today's or even vapourware mobile devices.)

Compare apples to apples.

Compare a current technology MFD to a current technology mobile device.

Or compare an old MFD to a similar era flip phone.

I understand that you understand the benefits of a modern MFD, but for those responding / watching who don't...

Today's standard MFD's are fast, powerful, and are way, way, way, more robust and reliable than any of todays standard mobile devices.

Installing charting software on one or more mobile devices is a great convenience tool to have and use where appropriate, but in no way shape or form is a direct substitute for a dedicated MFD.

We carry 3 mobile devices with charting software on our vessel.

Despite this, we just upgraded our 10 year old charplotter with a new Axion MFD.

Why?

Performance and reliability way over and above any of the mobile device!

Sorry, but I will call anybody on it, who will compromise safety while attempting to justify using a fragile mobile device designed for a 13 year old girls hip pocket, or a PC designed for an indoor desk or even worse, lap, to satisfy their inner geek to MacGyver something together that is no where near the same thing, or just to save a few bucks for more beer and cigarettes, vs installing and maintaining a robust MFD designed for the marine environment.

It’s not a “couple dollars”... it’s the difference of about a thousand dollars on my count and we ended up with 2 iPads, 4 cases, 4 sets of software, as well as a wireless in cockpit waterproof charging system.

For some of us a new MFD is simply not as effective of a solution.

When it comes to safety- that’s why there is a compass, a leadline, and a planning chart. Not to mention the 3 other chartplotter loaded waterproof (+cases) phones on board.

[BenBowSirocco]

I see your point though and I would never argue the ipads are as robust as your new axiom.

You could always send us one, since it’s only a couple bucks. Haha

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by BenBowSirocco

It’s not a “couple dollars”... it’s the difference of about a thousand dollars on my count and we ended up with 2 iPads, 4 cases, 4 sets of software, as well as a wireless in cockpit waterproof charging system.

For some of us a new MFD is simply not as effective of a solution.

When it comes to safety- that’s why there is a compass, a leadline, and a planning chart. Not to mention the 3 other chartplotter loaded waterproof (+cases) phones on board.

I have a differing opinion.

A couple of years ago, as a result of a similar thread, I spent my time and money to perform as close to an apples to apples comparison as I could.

I went to a marine store and purchased a brand new RM Axiom 7. It came with Navionics charts for North America and the Bahamas, a mounting bracket one could stand on, and a 3 year warranty.

With tax it came to C$1200.

Then I went to comparable computer store (Best Buy), and purchased an iPad with built in GPS, with a Lifeproof case, Navionics for iPad, and a 3 year warranty.

With tax it came to C$1200

It still didn't have a mount, could only be used in wet conditions for about 5 hours before the battery died, couldn't be seen in bright sunlight. and just quit if the ambient temp was below 5C or above 27C.

Not the same; not nearly the same.

What do you mean by "effective"?

IMHO, and MFD is the most "effective" device for operating navigation software in a marine environment. There simply is nothing else nearly as effective.

Paper charts are a good solution, mandatory even. But they are no where near equal to a dedicated MFD. They are a bitch to use in the cockpit, and make most seasick down a the nav station where they can be used reasonably safely and securely, with other devices or technology to keep an accurate fix.

Most boaters use electronic over paper charts for every day use for very good reason.

Overall, they are way mo' betta'.

Those who use a mobile device over an MFD, are not using something way mo' betta', but rather something inferior on almost every front.

That a phone or tablet even needs a 3rd party case to be slightly more shock and moisture ingress protected under some circumstances, should be the first indicator how well suited they are to the marine environment.

A current MFD is ruggedized, waterproof to IP67, with tropicalized PCBs, and comes with a bracket that can withstand one falling from the other side of the cockpit on it.

I go on a lot of boats in my business, and I have yet to see one single iPad or smartphone install anywhere near as robust as any given MFD installed with supplied equipment in accordance with instructions.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

?

Performance and reliability way over and above any of the mobile device!

Sorry, but I will call anybody on it, who will compromise safety while attempting to justify using a fragile mobile device designed for a 13 year old girls hip pocket, or a PC designed for an indoor desk or even worse, lap, to satisfy their inner geek to MacGyver something together that is no where near the same thing, or just to save a few bucks for more beer and cigarettes, vs installing and maintaining a robust MFD designed for the marine environment.

With an enclosed wheelhouse 12ft off the water if we ever need the benefits of "marine environment" computing it'll be because we have sunk and by then it doesn't matter.

I'll stick with my fast 16gb ram i7 mini PC and dual 23 inch monitors for a very small fraction of the price thanks.
All are screwed down and not going anywhere.

[BenBowSirocco]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I have a differing opinion.

A couple of years ago, as a result of a similar thread, I spent my time and money to perform as close to an apples to apples comparison as I could.

I went to a marine store and purchased a brand new RM Axiom 7. It came with Navionics charts for North America and the Bahamas, a mounting bracket one could stand on, and a 3 year warranty.

With tax it came to C$1200.

Then I went to comparable computer store (Best Buy), and purchased an iPad with built in GPS, with a Lifeproof case, Navionics for iPad, and a 3 year warranty.

With tax it came to C$1200

It still didn't have a mount, could only be used in wet conditions for about 5 hours before the battery died, couldn't be seen in bright sunlight. and just quit if the ambient temp was below 5C or above 27C.

Not the same; not nearly the same.

What do you mean by "effective"?

IMHO, and MFD is the most "effective" device for operating navigation software in a marine environment. There simply is nothing else nearly as effective.

Paper charts are a good solution, mandatory even. But they are no where near equal to a dedicated MFD. They are a bitch to use in the cockpit, and make most seasick down a the nav station where they can be used reasonably safely and securely, with other devices or technology to keep an accurate fix.

Most boaters use electronic over paper charts for every day use for very good reason.

Overall, they are way mo' betta'.

Those who use a mobile device over an MFD, are not using something way mo' betta', but rather something inferior on almost every front.

That a phone or tablet even needs a 3rd party case to be slightly more shock and moisture ingress protected under some circumstances, should be the first indicator how well suited they are to the marine environment.

A current MFD is ruggedized, waterproof to IP67, with tropicalized PCBs, and comes with a bracket that can withstand one falling from the other side of the cockpit on it.

I go on a lot of boats in my business, and I have yet to see one single iPad or smartphone install anywhere near as robust as any given MFD installed with supplied equipment in accordance with instructions.

As I said: I would never argue that it was as rugged.

We bought an IPad refurbished a couple years back- full warranty, new packaging- for $350- from the apple store. Spent $50 on fully updating Navionics and a little more on a basic Predict Wind account.
This took us down the Mississippi and Achafalaya Rivers and over 200 miles along the gulf coast in a small engineless open boat. Then on a delivery trip we spent less than a hundred for a complete separate set of navigating software (so two opinions basically) and sailed from Tampa, through the canal and onward to California.

We still use it today and it’s in pristine condition thanks to good cases. We bought a second iPad of the next generation up for $50 and spent about $100 on software for our upcoming trip.
In total spread over 2.5 years I guess we have a little more than $600 into the pair. So roughly half of the axiom. Assuming the MFD comes with all the updated and updating charts, route planning software, ability to save satellite image screenshots and etc- which it doesn’t.

I also just recently spent $60 on a waterproof wireless charger for the cockpit.
But many of these expenses like the redundant software packages could have been avoided.

They have limitations, they are not the same as a MFD plotter, but it’s hard to imagine a more versatile and inexpensive way to safely navigate.

I am contracting work on a super yacht and the captain told me he never turns on the huge Garmin system. He uses an iPad. “Way easier and way more information” and I agree with that.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I have a differing opinion.

A couple of years ago, as a result of a similar thread, I spent my time and money to perform as close to an apples to apples comparison as I could.

I went to a marine store and purchased a brand new RM Axiom 7. It came with Navionics charts for North America and the Bahamas, a mounting bracket one could stand on, and a 3 year warranty.

With tax it came to C$1200.

Then I went to comparable computer store (Best Buy), and purchased an iPad with built in GPS, with a Lifeproof case, Navionics for iPad, and a 3 year warranty.

With tax it came to C$1200

.

There's your problem.

Our backup to our backup is an 8 inch lenovo android tablet running navionics that cost $150 aud.

[Tillsbury]

You're missing several key points:

1) Many people already have ipads, for other uses around the boat. Mine is my notebook, sketchpad, store of all boat documentation, reading device for books and magazines, bedtime video display, and primary internet device when relaxing. As well as many other things. For people like me, the ipad is a no-cost device as we would have bought one anyway for other uses when anchored.

2) If you're using Navionics, particularly on a lesser tablet, then I can see why you'd think an MFD is at least as good. But compare any MFD to an ipad showing raster charts at 2700x2000 resolution (with the boats displayed on top) and both the speed and clarity are poles apart. At best, the most modern MFD has processing power equivalent to a pretty low-budget tablet.

3) In the final broaching wave, yes an MFD is more weatherproof than an ipad, of course. But for 99% of sailing when you're not taking green water into the cockpit, it's fine. I can't see the point in a massive case for an ipad, as I wouldn't be using it above decks in that situation. I have a very thin clear TPU case which covers the back of the device (and happens to hold the pencil too), which is fine for protecting against general scratches, drops from normal height onto the cabin floor etc. A properly fitted mount, protecting the device from normal boat movement, crew banging into it, spray/rain/sun, and fitted with a charging lead, is a relatively simple thing to arrange.

So, the obvious solution is to have a cheap, small, budget MFD which will do at a pinch for really industrial weather (and as a completely independent backup chartplotter, of course), but for almost all sailing situations that you would choose to be in stick with the advantages and quality of the ipad.

tl;dr: I wouldn't suggest using tablets as your only chartplotter on board, but if you're stuck with the thought that you should therefore only use an MFD as your chartplotter, you're missing out enormously.