New iPhones and the imminent death of the MFD

[swordds]

What is an “MFD”?

[Davidhoy]

Originally Posted by swordds

What is an “MFD”?

Multi Function Display - basically all modern chart plotters are classified as such.

[themediadoctor]

Thank you Tarian. I just bought a 1988 Viking MY and all electronics need to be replaced ... which is why I'm thinking an I5 laptop + 2 displays (upper and lower helm). If I ever get a wave over the top of the flybridge, a locked screen will be the least of my problems. Is it possible for you to message me or post a quick list of your nav setup? Very much value practical experience! Thanks!

[tarian]

I have painstainkly read through these posts and am amazed no horrifed at the level of need for displays to be fore front of any navigation and for people to need them for navigation.
Lets be honest most boaters tend to stick to their main sailing grounds and sail in familiar waters, OFC there are the few that go out of their way to explore . What worries me is that you still need a MFD to look at while sailing , I have charts on OPEN CPN and I plot my course (Compass in case no one knew it) and I look for landmarks and depths and bouys that would set my course , I then transfer this to my Tablet , yes I have a waterproof 12v socket at the helm and a waterproof case for the tablet I do not have the tablet on any bracket it just sits beside me on a cushion , when I set sail I take my bearings and point my boat to the compass direction I need to go and every now and then I look at the tablet to see that the course is being maintained , but this is infrequent , as I have tha ablity to plot a course hold a course and look for the tell tale signs of the land and sea . . this is not going backwards this is common sense and for me a better sailing experience, I feel the boat I navigate with the elements and I feel I have achived ,
MFD displays have there needs but the price point does not justify having one nor do I need one , how many on here have there car sat nav on even to a route they have done many times , this is the same as a boat,
how many keep their mobiles in their pocket , this is like your MFD , people have these on crossing oceans , WHY in case you missed the next Junction . Do not get me wrong if these were priced like a normal tablet I would buy it and switch it on when I needed to but these Marine companies are scamming you in belivivng that A MFD with quad processors and can call Mars for you is the way forward and you need to upgradge ,
that is how they keep you coming back.
My $150 tablet has quad processors I only need to see a map and play candy crush .... Never think because of their price point you are getting more than the guy next door with a Tablet you have all fallen into the Apple trap of if you have not got the I phone 11 THEN YOUR A NOBODY as everone rushes out and upgrades their Iphone 10 why? you only use it to make phone calls listen to music and take pictures just like the last one , but wait they have told you it has 1000 more pixels , dam shame the human eye wont care nor the human brain .. But its your money and you buy what you want , but in a lot of cases it is pure Boat Snobbery , my electronics is newer than yours are you one of those people?

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by captmikem

Most of my sailing is offshore, so my wind and speed instruments and MFD are mounted above the companionway where they can be seen when sitting in the cockpit.
Many people mount them in a pod above the wheel where they can only be seen when behind the wheel.

Not directly relevant to the OP but I agree with you about where instruments belong for offshore sailors. Watchstanders sit under the sprayhood/dodger, not behind the wheel. Worth noting that everyone topside can see the instruments, not just one person.



Extra credit for why the MFD should be to port vice to starboard. *grin*

Originally Posted by FabioC

I use two iPads aboard in addition to the MFD on the boat.
The iPads are definitely superior to the MFD (in my case, B&G Zeus 2) for running sophisticated navigation apps (like Timezero or Navionics). Also, there is no comparison in resolution and size of the screen and in the user-friendliness of the UI.

However, I see three limitations with the iPads (or tablets in general) being used in the cockpit to augment the MFD.
1. The screens are really not made for outdoor use, and are only readable at certain orientations. Also, they do not read well if you wear polarized glasses. This is true, to different extent, with all tablets.
2. More importantly, they are awkward or even impractical to hold (for obvious reasons, especially the large ones) by the helmsman while steering. In many boats, adding holders near the helm is also impractical. This is especially true with the newer boats that have two wheels and a relative small stand for the wheels (or one that is integrated in the cockpit). Some holders, (e.g., holding arms), are not sufficiently secure, and the iPad can get in the way or even come off if it gets bumped accidentally in a maneuver.
With two wheels, in most boats, there is no good place to have a single holder. Moving the iPad from one holder to another is impractical.
3. The tablets are not waterproof. Even if they are, the touch screens do not work when wet. They do not work with most sailing gloves either. Adding a waterproof casing is bulky and in general makes the touch screen not very reactive even when it is not wet.

I am on a quest to find solutions (or at least improvements) to these issues, since there is no question that tablets have no match (potentially) as navigation aids in the cockpit and I am very interested to learn what other people have come up with to solve these problems.

I usually trim posts I quote, but yours is too good. It is lovely to read a post from someone else who has side-by-side experience over many miles with alternatives. I agree with your conclusions. A tablet works, but is still not as good as an MFD. That day may come, but is not here yet. Can you use a tablet for primary navigation? Yes. Does it measure up to an MFD? No.

[CatNewBee]

Some tablets and phone shut down when exposed to sunlight to protect them from overheating. Not good for navigation if they are the only source. And they must be charged...

[sudarkoff]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Just reading though the new iPhone announcements, it seems that we are finally getting devices that could make the MFD obsolete. The new iPhone 11 Max packs a 6.5" display, 1,200 nits and IP68 for about $1,100.

Availability is a very big factor here. Professional marine gear is built to a vastly different availability spec than consumer devices. I would hate it if I lost all my instruments because Angry Birds crashed my tablet in the middle of coming into a new anchorage.

On the other hand, MFD shouldn't be your only means of navigation either.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Not directly relevant to the OP but I agree with you about where instruments belong for offshore sailors. Watchstanders sit under the sprayhood/dodger, not behind the wheel. Worth noting that everyone topside can see the instruments, not just one person.



Extra credit for why the MFD should be to port vice to starboard. *grin*





I usually trim posts I quote, but yours is too good. It is lovely to read a post from someone else who has side-by-side experience over many miles with alternatives. I agree with your conclusions. A tablet works, but is still not as good as an MFD. That day may come, but is not here yet. Can you use a tablet for primary navigation? Yes. Does it measure up to an MFD? No.

More relevant to the Ipad disscussion , a waterproof case is as flimsly as a plastic bag, mine is, my sailing gloves work no problems through the weather protector why on earth are you keeping it held while steering your boat , why look at it every 2 mins are you scared that a red light will come on and you have to halt , as for brackets there are plenty of good sailing brackets for tablets on Amazon I have one , survived 50 knots of a mountain along the coast , and for a real no brainer get yourself some stainless tubing with mounts at the bottom right angled turns and make yourself a stainless handle and screw mount it on the pedestal and put your tablet on there if it is needed to be secure . my stainless handle cost me in parts lesss than $60 316 grade , when you are confronted with a price that far exceeds the items worth look for another way , but I have Aspergers my brain can't help it the only true negative and it is true is the screen is not as bright , but I use a glare protector and wear polarised glasses , I aslo have a custom sunhood for when I really need to see anything

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by themediadoctor

Thank you Tarian. I just bought a 1988 Viking MY and all electronics need to be replaced ... which is why I'm thinking an I5 laptop + 2 displays (upper and lower helm). If I ever get a wave over the top of the flybridge, a locked screen will be the least of my problems.

Why??

While it's not common, it's not uncommon either. I have a 39-foot flybridge trawler that goes 8 kts. I've taken heavy spray on the flybridge before. Enough so, that after one wave with the isinglass window open and we looked like we took a shower with our clothes on.

Why in the world would you think that is a good time to lose your electronics?

[camkelly]

Seems that the tablet / smartphone vs mfd topic can stir up quite the debate! Maybe debate is the wrong term because the conversations begin to sound more like Ford is better than GM and vice versa. They each have pros and cons and suffer from exactly the same vulnerabilities. They both require electrical power, can both breakdown, get wet or damaged. Find what works best for the type of sailing you do. The tablet (whichever manufacturer) will replace the mfd as we know them today and regardless of whatever side one is on, don't leave home without your up to date paper charts.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by Shrew

Why??

While it's not common, it's not uncommon either. I have a 39-foot flybridge trawler that goes 8 kts. I've taken heavy spray on the flybridge before. Enough so, that after one wave with the isinglass window open and we looked like we took a shower with our clothes on.

Why in the world would you think that is a good time to lose your electronics?

Why would he lose his electronics if they are in a waterproof case of bag , the real reason is fear of the unkown and the what if's and the scare stories from those that have heard tales of woe , the need for a 12 inch MFD so so much greater than a 7 inch Because the boat is bigger argument, but your eyes are all the same size and your brians , (well moslty ) why do trawlers and big power boats need bigger screens than a sailing vessel , just curious , not arguing with yourself just random thougths going through my head , oh and I have taken plenty green water over my Boat with a cheap tablet in a case secured with a bracket and homemade handle it surived but my so called wwetweather gear which was expensive let in water and I got wet , go figure that , should have stuck to my oilies but we were told that they make you sweat and you need gortex but gore tex is not 100% waterproof as the saturation point and hydrostatic head of water will eventually get in.
Ok of now ranting over

[exMaggieDrum]

I just installed an update to my iOS for my iPad Pro. I now have lost functionality that I had before. This does not make me a happy camper. This has happened many times in the past. It is basically unpredictable what will change and what the change will mean until you do the install.


I don't think I would be very comfortable using my iPad, or a Samsung tablet (just as bad for OS updates - I have one of those too), or even Microsoft PC's, for mission critical operations on the boat. I would, and have, used them as auxiliary displays and for planning. The colors and pixels can't be beat. But not in indirect or direct sunlight (in my experience).


We had green water in our full dodger, high freeboard, center cockpit many many times. When I say many that means MANY.



I was the "experienced" helping a couple take their very capable Tayana down the west coast a few years ago. The boat had am MFD but the owner said (after we pushed off) that he intended to use (only) his iPad. It was constantly running out of battery and they both used it for emails which drained the battery and took the "chartplotter" offline. I would think whoever would want to use a tablet or pad for navigation would not follow the same protocol.


Nice as adjuncts but never (at least at this state of hardware) the main navigation or radar display.

[Martkimwat]

As good as iPads are for general navigating and especially ease of use with the Navionics app, they do not stand up to bright sunlight well, not the display brightness issue which is pretty good, but they don't like the heat and after an hour or so, in full sunlight will go into overheat mode, the display goes black and if you try to open the screen, a small thermometer is displayed with a message that the device needs to cool down, not very helpful when it happens just when you are trying to verify a position or time. So don't be relying on it without having your usual MFD device to fall back on. Maybe the new iPad pro's with OLED screens may be better, but you are paying more for that than an equivalent MFD so I don't see the point.

[wingssail]

In the first place an MFD at the helm is not an option for us since we are tiller steered and there really is no place to mount an MFD unless we wanted to have it under the dodger. But really, we wouldn't use it that much.

What is "mission critical" for us is the ability to carefully pre-define a route. Mostly this is to alert us to navigation dangers which might not be apparent while casually referring to either a MFD or a tablet. We do this route planning below deck on O where we are dry and comfortable and have a full keyboard. Our nav station is not subject to dowsing. We don't think this would be easily done at an MFD, especially on a dirty night, reaching through the spokes of a wheel, without a keyboard, in a slamming boat.

On deck we are rarely steering unless entering port or helming for fun. Mostly we are on windvane and autopilot. An MFD back at the helm station (if we had one) would not be convenient.

Tablets? We have several, including one waterproof, ruggedized 7" with a 1000 nit screen. We often use this on-deck, but it is hard to see unless in the shade, and it is small. The primary navigation system, the source, is O on a laptop with all connections to instruments, ais, the best charts.

BTW, our first experience with a tablet ended when it was placed on a cockpit cushion then kneeled on, ending both the navigation and the book which was being read.

Another friend lost their boat (run aground and destroyed) when their charting subscription system started interrupting their Navigation as they approached shore and came into cell range.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by tarian

I have painstainkly read through these posts and am amazed no horrifed at the level of need for displays to be fore front of any navigation and for people to need them for navigation.
Lets be honest most boaters tend to stick to their main sailing grounds and sail in familiar waters, OFC there are the few that go out of their way to explore . What worries me is that you still need a MFD to look at while sailing , I have charts on OPEN CPN and I plot my course (Compass in case no one knew it) and I look for landmarks and depths and bouys that would set my course , I then transfer this to my Tablet , yes I have a waterproof 12v socket at the helm and a waterproof case for the tablet I do not have the tablet on any bracket it just sits beside me on a cushion , when I set sail I take my bearings and point my boat to the compass direction I need to go and every now and then I look at the tablet to see that the course is being maintained , but this is infrequent , as I have tha ablity to plot a course hold a course and look for the tell tale signs of the land and sea . . this is not going backwards this is common sense and for me a better sailing experience, I feel the boat I navigate with the elements and I feel I have achived ,
MFD displays have there needs but the price point does not justify having one nor do I need one , how many on here have there car sat nav on even to a route they have done many times , this is the same as a boat,
how many keep their mobiles in their pocket , this is like your MFD , people have these on crossing oceans , WHY in case you missed the next Junction . Do not get me wrong if these were priced like a normal tablet I would buy it and switch it on when I needed to but these Marine companies are scamming you in belivivng that A MFD with quad processors and can call Mars for you is the way forward and you need to upgradge ,
that is how they keep you coming back.
My $150 tablet has quad processors I only need to see a map and play candy crush .... Never think because of their price point you are getting more than the guy next door with a Tablet you have all fallen into the Apple trap of if you have not got the I phone 11 THEN YOUR A NOBODY as everone rushes out and upgrades their Iphone 10 why? you only use it to make phone calls listen to music and take pictures just like the last one , but wait they have told you it has 1000 more pixels , dam shame the human eye wont care nor the human brain .. But its your money and you buy what you want , but in a lot of cases it is pure Boat Snobbery , my electronics is newer than yours are you one of those people?

Too funny. Horrified you say. Of all the people reading and responding to this the forum, the average amount of time spent more than 1 mile away from terra firmanthat could be struck while moving, is likely around 0.05%

Of course no one really needs a display in the middle of the ocean with good visibility. Middle of the ocean with poor visibility? Radar and /or AIS may save you from being run down. Within 1 mile of shore or shoal? An MFD may save you from grounding or sinking.

Keeping a proper watch, also includes using available navigation instruments appropriately for conditions. In maritime tragedy proceedings, the excuse that one sank the boat because the wife was using the primary navigation tool to play Candy Crush, will not absolve the skipper of responsibility.

One of my criteria for agreeing to crew on a boat is if the boat is equipped with “adequate” nav instruments. In all cases except maybe a daysail on a small boat in very well known water with few obstructions, that includes an MFD. If the skipper doesn’t value his crews safety enough to have a proper, working, dedicated MFD, I am certainly not going to trust his judgement for any matter
Relating to my safety. Of course I always bring my own mobile and handheld devices just in case, but that is for if the proper equipment should fail.

It’s similar to not relying on a bulge pump to keep rhe boat from sinkiing, the prudent sailor fixes the freakin hole.