Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 31-12-2011, 14:56   #106
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, Wash.
Boat: no longer on my Cabo Rico 38 Sanderling
Posts: 1,794
Send a message via MSN to John A
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
The $2 lawyer is in the yellow pages right under free legal advice on the internet.
Ya have to pay for FREE legal advice???? Where the heck is the justice in that??
__________________

__________________
John A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2011, 15:00   #107
Registered User
 
Jesse's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Oro Bay Puget Sound
Boat: Irwin sloop
Posts: 374
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

Would an unbonded boat with an isolated propshaft be imune to marina stray current issues?
__________________

__________________
Jesse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2011, 16:31   #108
Registered User
 
avb3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,913
Images: 1
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

Although the OP took his ball and ran away, wow, has this been an informative thread!

I've learned a LOT, and have bookmarked for future reference.

Thanks CF members; great example of crowdsourcing in action.
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
avb3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2011, 17:10   #109
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bash View Post
I had a similar problem a few years back. An underfunded sea scout sailboat across the fairway from me replaced its dead charger with a cheap automotive charger. Suddenly, everybody within 20 meters of that boat was losing zincs. A Bayliner in the next slip over from him even lost its trim tabs due to electrolysis. (Owner wasn't aware how to prevent electrolysis in trim tabs.)

When the scoutmaster refused to take responsibility for the damage that was being done to neighboring yachts, the neighborhood committee began unplugging his boat every night.

Every night.

Problem solved.
Man!!!...I which I had counted how many times this has happened to me. Because I'm cheap, I always end up in a marina (Moss Landing, Ca. Half Moon Bay, Ca.) with some fishing $#&! next to me with a Sears 2 prong battery charger from 1960 left connected to his 10 year old battery which no longer holds a charge. My zincs are gone in 2-3 months!
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2011, 17:17   #110
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

I agree this has been a very informative thread but would ask that people lay off the OP. Should he return and wish to participate in CF then I would hope we'd welcome him.
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2011, 20:34   #111
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
Big fan of ditching the thru hull bonding. Isolate the grounds for dc and ac. use a clean path for lightening protection. 3 different beasts keep them isoloted as well as you can
+1 here also
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2011, 21:47   #112
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Indies
Boat: Burger 74' motor yacht, 65 foot 12 metre, Flicka and sailing dinghy
Posts: 635
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

For what its worth, legal action is worthless in this case. A boat owner should check his or her zincs periodically. If you notice a problem, you have a duty to mitigate damages, eg., replace your zincs more often. The only damages you could get are the cost of replacing zincs more often. Not a significant amount.
If you were to go to court, you would have to have an expert testify. A good expert is expensive. The other party has the right to depose the expert. There goes $2000 at least in expert time and legal times for one deposition.
I have an aluminum boat with isolation transformers. 6 years at marinas and the zincs barely show any effect. Had hull scanned and no damage either. they were expensive ones, but its a big boat. best money I ever spent.
__________________
dohenyboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 06:04   #113
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newport News VA
Boat: Egg Harbor sedan cruiser 1970
Posts: 829
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
Would an unbonded boat with an isolated propshaft be imune to marina stray current issues?
more likely to be more resistant to stray current.
How is the current going to return to its source if the items are not bonded to the AC ground wire?
Only thru the seawater which has more resistance than someones boat who is bonded. Current does not follow a single path, it is like lightening with many branches some larger some smaller.

If the current is there I bet the corrosion will preferentially attack the bonded boat instead of the higher resistance un bonded boat.
__________________
sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 06:24   #114
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newport News VA
Boat: Egg Harbor sedan cruiser 1970
Posts: 829
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lateral View Post
The way I see it.
RCD's, ELCB's,GXYZ's means wiring upgrade because of exactly what is happening here. Or they would be forever tripping. eg 15mA leakage current for 30mSec.
That is why pumps,fridges & dishwashers are exempt here. Some leak ac from new.Also I beleive the US doesn't have the MNE (multiple neutral earth) system in alot of places. Hence Residual current devices are not relevant
as earth shouldn't have a polarity. Situatiion could get confusing .

Clamp meters a go for sure. Current in = current out; if it doesn't its leaking back to the grid somewhere thru fault/ low resist path. Saltwater has a penchant to rectify-bingo. Hell your boat is sitting in electrolyte.
The no brainer is to isolate but you could play roulette with marina polarity
if you like living on the edge.
The clamp meter is detecting current imbalance, so a RCD or GFCI WILL trip if it detects the imbalance. GFCI has a 5 milliamp leakage trip point.

ELCI trips at 30 milliamps, which one do you think is going to protect better.
Introducing the ELCI

However would either of these protect the boat from AC stray current corrosion ?
Is say 4 milliamp current flow enough to initiate corrosion?
__________________
sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 06:38   #115
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717
However would either of these protect the boat from AC stray current corrosion ?
Is say 4 milliamp current flow enough to initiate corrosion?
No it is not. Only an isolation transformer provides 100% protection.

When the situation is bad enough, a galvanic isolator also fails with dramatic results. The reason is that the ground wire is not really isolated because that would not be safe with this tupeof device. It will only isolate if the current through the ground wire is very low. When the current (voltage potential really but let's keep it simple) becomes high enough, it will allow it through. This might happen when it is saving your life or it might happen when there is a severe galvanic problem.

Remember what was said before:

***** galvanic corrosion is caused by the current through the GROUND WIRE, not the hot or neutral wires. *****

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 06:51   #116
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newport News VA
Boat: Egg Harbor sedan cruiser 1970
Posts: 829
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

Quote:
***** galvanic corrosion is caused by the current through the GROUND WIRE, not the hot or neutral wires. *****
ok, but the point is the guilty party, if they had GFI, their breaker would trip not your breaker. GFI or ELCI ought to be on all point sources for the slips for each boat.

The source is them and if current flow was unbalanced for them it would trip and turn off the power. It wont trip yours.

Perhaps ought to be a way to open the ground on your boat and notify you if the ground wire is carrying current. Which would have other problems. But at least you would know something.
Perhaps you could have a meter in your ground and log the current.
__________________
sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 07:03   #117
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 647
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

Hi Nick,

Appreciate your input. Several questions...I understand the concept of limiting the current through the common ground wire by preferably a transformer(I would think all transformers are isolated since they use magnetic flux to transfer voltages) vs a galvanic isolator, however I would think the corrosion is being caused by a direct current in that ground wire instead of an AC current? The next question is a statement I made regarding the problem boat in that the culprit that is leaking current does not sacrifice his zincs but rather causes all of his neighbors to loose zincs by various amounts depending on current paths. I've always heard that, but thinking about it I can not understand the physics in that the leaking boat should have a positive potential between his ground and the water and thus his boat is the anode and as such the anode should be giving up ions(depleting his zincs to his neighbors rather than the other way around)?
__________________
lancelot9898 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 08:27   #118
Registered User

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Elsewhere on the Water
Posts: 571
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

There is a way to accurately determine if your boat, or other boats, are are leaking AC current. A few posts have been close by suggesting a clamp meter on the shore power cord. This is not quite valid.

The green ground wire in the cord must be excluded to measure leakage. Also, a meter capable of measuring down to a milliamp is needed. A Fluke 360 is such a meter and it costs about $600.

A short piece of shore power cord can be made with the ground separated so that the meter clamp can be placed on the hot and neutral wires. Plug this test cord into the dock power and plug the boat's shore power cord into it. This makes it quick to connect to any boat on the dock without getting on it.

The current flowing to the boat in the black wire will equal the current flowing from the boat in the white neutral wire, so these two wires will read near zero if there is no leakage.

Some electronic equipment will run a very small current to ground. You can ignore values of 1 milliamp or less. 20 milliamps, or more, can be lethal to a person in the water.
__________________
St. Elsewhere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 08:37   #119
Registered User

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Elsewhere on the Water
Posts: 571
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

A common cause of leakage currents in marinas is the use of improperly wired electric heaters. If the ground and neutrals on the heater are crossed, it will appear to work, but will be creating a large leakage current. It is desirable to test your boat's outlets for proper polarity, but be aware that a mis-wired appliance plugged into a properly wired boat will create a problem too.
__________________
St. Elsewhere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2012, 08:44   #120
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,432
Re: Neighbor dumping raw AC into water?...what to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by St. Elsewhere View Post
The green ground wire in the cord must be excluded to measure leakage.
Not necessarily. If the leakage is to boat ground, i.e. salt water, the return is not via the green ground. The meter will see this.

After all it's leakage to the water the OP is worried about.
__________________

__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
raw water

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
External Raw Water Strainer ? tartansail Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 23 13-07-2016 04:30
Ever Hear of 'Air-Lock' Trouble In Raw Water Circuit (Yanmar 2gm) ? Northeaster Engines and Propulsion Systems 36 25-12-2013 19:09
Raw Water Pump vs Fresh Water Pump Cheechako Engines and Propulsion Systems 44 01-02-2012 15:31
Troubleshooting Poor Raw Water Flow Jetexas Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 9 17-10-2011 16:43
Refilling Water Tanks ironhorserider2 Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 19 29-09-2011 07:01



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.