Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-04-2013, 15:34   #16
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post

There are specific lengths that the back stay should be cut to, so I don't know where "*not* usually precisely cut to a specific tuned length" comes from. By using unshielded cable, you are essentially increasing the length of the antenna. I do agree with you however of using the coax but not the shield. I should have been more explicate. I only meant to use the inner wire of the coax and let the shield act as an RF insulator. Hope this clears it up a little.
Wtf.... shield as RF insulator? You make it up as you write I bet that some will even do this when they read it and believe they are good. Do you do this on purpose?
__________________

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 18:20   #17
Registered User
 
SeaBuffalo's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Galveston, Texas
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
. I should have been more explicate. I only meant to use the inner wire of the coax and let the shield act as an RF insulator. Hope this clears it up a little.
The shield will act as a capacitor NOT a insulator. As I said earlier it will as capacitive reactance to the antenna and decrease efficiency and cause more load and heat in the tuner.

GTO wire is the proper wire for the application. It's the same thing used in neon signs and rated for very high voltages.

Because the shield isn't grounded it will not shield anything and if you ground it you will make problems worse.

I've actually tried the coax instead of GTO with a antenna analyzer and see the added capacitive reactance of the coax its not pretty.
__________________

__________________
SeaBuffalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 18:58   #18
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Re: my ssb install was a breeze

As a ham for over 40 years and as a professional SSB installer, I don't know whether to laugh or to cry when reading this thread.

No, it's not rocket science. But there is a lot of science involved, as well as art and actual experience and practice.

Hey, anybody can hook up an SSB radio just any old way using just any old thing and, with luck, make some contacts. Especially on nets with lots of folks on frequency listening. EVEN THE WORST INSTALLATION will allow you to get thru sometimes.

How do I know this? Many thousands, nay tens of thousands of contacts with boats over many many years on the various maritime nets all around the world.

Making a few contacts proves almost nothing. Making reliable contacts when you want to in many places and times and on various bands means much more.

Haven't the time or energy to respond to all the bad info in this thread.

The most egregious...

1. tuner to backstay.....use GTO-15 wire, NOT coax; failure to do so will result in possible shock hazard and in certain attenuation of the transmitted signal;

2. length of backstay.....it doesn't matter that much. Modern tuners can tune just about any length over 23' or so. Longer lengths favor lower bands; shorter lengths favor the higher bands.

3. "dipole" ... backstay antennas are not dipoles, nor are they "one half of a dipole". A dipole is a balanced antenna. A backstay is an unbalanced, end-fed random length antenna.

4. the KISS-SSB counterpoise (I'm a dealer)....yes, it's incredibly easy to install and works fairly well. It's not the best RF ground or radial system you can install, but it's not bad, and will help to tune on all bands.

FWIW,

Bill
WA6CCA

BTW, Capt Don has it just about right! Guess some folks do learn from the reading :-)

B.
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 19:19   #19
Registered User
 
SeaBuffalo's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Galveston, Texas
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post

3. "dipole" ... backstay antennas are not dipoles, nor are they "one half of a dipole". A dipole is a balanced antenna. A backstay is an unbalanced, end-fed random length antenna.


B.
My point with one half a dipole is for the simplest illustration rather than start off with saying its like a ground mounted vertical or a inverted L if you add more wire.

Or if you took a tuner and mounted it in the air and had a wire running from the center conductor and the ground lug it would be a dipole. And by using a piece of coax to connect to the high voltage lug is in effect putting a capacitor in the middle of that dipole.
__________________
SeaBuffalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 19:21   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,371
Re: my ssb install was a breeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaBuffalo View Post
You DO NOT want to use coax from the output terminal of the tuner to the base of the random wire for good reason. If you look at the specifications of any coax it will tell you it's capacitance in pF per foot. By using coax from the tuner to the random wire you are adding capacitive resistance to the antenna which the tuner must overcome at the cost of efficiency and heat.

There is a reason GTO is used and not coax because coax is just one big capacitor.

Yes you want shielded coax up to the tuner but the dipole starts at the tuner. Just imagine the tuner as in the middle of a dipole hanging in the air. By using that shielded coax your basically adding a capacitor in one leg of your dipole.

Your antenna is still a dipole so to speak its just the random wire is one side and the kiss counter poise radial is the other.
YEP. Sure it'll work with coax, but you are loosing signal in the ground shield.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 19:22   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NW BC Canada
Boat: Dufour35 1982
Posts: 779
Images: 5
Re: my ssb install was a breeze

Wow, congratulations on winning the jackpot.

Funny world, I found out today when it comes to SSB I am a big loser!
__________________
www.SouthPacificEngagement.com
NorthPacific is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 19:37   #22
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,198
Images: 4
Re: my ssb install was a breeze

When Bill has a bit more time, maybe he will share his many years of being net control for multiple maritime nets and you won't find anyone with his insight as to good marine antenna installations. I've only been a relay for these nets on occasion, but when a 20 meter maritime mobile signal coming from one boat in an anchorage is barely readable, and the others in the anchorage are all 9+, you can see the impact of a poor antenna installation. This happens a lot in a net setting, where for a given area you would expect all maritime signals to be close to equal in strength, there is that one boat that its signal is so low, you know he has problems.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 20:36   #23
Registered User
 
SeaBuffalo's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Galveston, Texas
Posts: 72
Read Gordon West's write up about marine grounding for HF SSB and you will find out a lot of it boils down to the counter poise ground. Yes a kiss system will work but its no match for a proper ground with lots of copper and a seawater bond.

He actually uses different ground systems with a field straight meter. It's very good reading.
__________________
SeaBuffalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 20:40   #24
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Re: my ssb install was a breeze

Typical

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 21:41   #25
Registered User
 
SeaBuffalo's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Galveston, Texas
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Typical

Have something serious to add or just taking up space and wasting elections?
__________________
SeaBuffalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 21:55   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: my ssb install was a breeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaBuffalo View Post
Have something serious to add or just taking up space and wasting elections?
Would I take your advise or s/v Jedi. Without doubt the latter.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 22:18   #27
Registered User
 
SeaBuffalo's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Galveston, Texas
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post

Would I take your advise or s/v Jedi. Without doubt the latter.
Has nothing to so with who's advice. My response to Jedi's last post was what was the point of it? It served no purpose to the topic just him being rude.
__________________
SeaBuffalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 22:29   #28
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 4,198
Images: 4
Re: my ssb install was a breeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaBuffalo View Post
Has nothing to so with who's advice. My response to Jedi's last post was what was the point of it? It served no purpose to the topic just him being rude.
Aw, you misunderstand Nick (S/V Jedi), he isn't rude, just jaded. He has been cruising the last dozen years, and if you haven't noticed on the "Cruiser's" Forum, for every cruiser there are 100 wanna be's or wanna return to cruising types on this forum.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-04-2013, 23:28   #29
Registered User
 
SeaBuffalo's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Galveston, Texas
Posts: 72
http://www.kp44.org/ftp/SeawaterGrou...GordonWest.pdf

I think Gordon West qualifies as a expert on the topic. Read it and take from it what you want.
__________________
SeaBuffalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-04-2013, 01:28   #30
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 8,013
Images: 5
Re: my ssb install was a breeze

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Wtf.... shield as RF insulator? You make it up as you write I bet that some will even do this when they read it and believe they are good. Do you do this on purpose?
Well if you are trying to be counter-productive with your sarcasm, congratulations, you were successful. I have been doing my antennas this way for 20 years and my signal reports are my proof.
__________________

__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ssb

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Marine SSB Radios Used for Ham Radio Capt.Don Marine Electronics 48 16-01-2014 08:52
Problem with SSB Icom and Spectra Watermaker jpiebrig Marine Electronics 22 03-02-2012 20:14
general cost of SSB install unbusted67 Marine Electronics 72 22-12-2011 15:36
Yet Another HAM vs Marine SSB Question GeoPowers Marine Electronics 8 02-11-2011 23:18



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.