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Old 24-08-2018, 02:17   #16
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

Without knowing what your 30 connections are, I would divide the wire bundle into two. One multicore at 14awg for pure power supply connections and the other at 16awg for signal connections eg NMEA 0183. Less crosstalk and lower losses on the power connections.
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Old 24-08-2018, 06:06   #17
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

While I'm not sure why you would need 15 pair, having worked with plastic jacketed multiconductor cable on signal systems, it would be a great option as long as you can feed it (they do make other sizes with different conductor numbers).

It provides it's own chafe protection and then you can break it out at either end to keep things much cleaner than the typical rats nest of wires.

Are all these pairs feeding devices at the same end location? If you are feeding 15 circuits spread across the boat, I don't think it makes as much sense.
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Old 24-08-2018, 06:28   #18
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

Is this multi conductor cable made up of stranded cores or single wire cores? Surveyors frown on single core wires for good reason.
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Old 24-08-2018, 06:54   #19
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

I have four objectives. 1. Rewire inside the pod and make the wires neater down through the cockpit sole. 2. Take a shorter route through the engine room to the electrical panel. 3. Tidy the spaghetti mess to the panel. 4. Move the whole panel as part of my nav area renovation.
I thought of using split plastic covering, which comes in different diameters and colors, but I also need to pull the original old wires, circa 1977, many of which are chaffed and stiff.
It’s very easy to strip the outer black shield, so I might remove that completely once inside the engine room, where some wires lead off elsewhere anyway. This would help to obviate the heat problem, yet keep them in a neat bundle.
I know It’s going to be a long and tedious job, but my overall plan will be very different from a traditional chart table arrangement, yet just as effective, and keep the character of the boat.
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Old 24-08-2018, 07:19   #20
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

Start by making a schematic of what will remain in the pedestal.

Consider wiring changes that concentrate wiring in ways that avoid a lot of back/forth.

Consider if upgrading to network-based devices will help. A single NMEA2k cable with daisy-chained connections to multiple gauges would greatly simplify the wiring. Sensors at the devices each make a network connection, or use a gateway box as a bridge. No need to run separate sensor lines back/forth from each sensor to a single gauge. It's an added expense for the devices but that offsets the labor and wiring expenses.

An additional upside to networked sensors is you can add a multi-function display anywhere else on the boat and get all the data with just power and a single network cable.

I would not use a bulk multi-conductor line. Too many situations where a conductor goes bad, or the risk of one overheating and taking out adjacent ones. Yeah, it's more work to run separate ones but any future troubleshooting or repairs would stand to be a lot less problematic.
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Old 24-08-2018, 07:28   #21
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post
Start by making a schematic of what will remain in the pedestal.

Consider wiring changes that concentrate wiring in ways that avoid a lot of back/forth.

Consider if upgrading to network-based devices will help. A single NMEA2k cable with daisy-chained connections to multiple gauges would greatly simplify the wiring. Sensors at the devices each make a network connection, or use a gateway box as a bridge. No need to run separate sensor lines back/forth from each sensor to a single gauge. It's an added expense for the devices but that offsets the labor and wiring expenses.

An additional upside to networked sensors is you can add a multi-function display anywhere else on the boat and get all the data with just power and a single network cable.

I would not use a bulk multi-conductor line. Too many situations where a conductor goes bad, or the risk of one overheating and taking out adjacent ones. Yeah, it's more work to run separate ones but any future troubleshooting or repairs would stand to be a lot less problematic.
Okay, I don't know anything about that system but I wouldn't mind taking a look and costing it. Can you send me some information, maybe with a PM. Thanks.
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Old 24-08-2018, 07:57   #22
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

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Okay, I don't know anything about that system but I wouldn't mind taking a look and costing it. Can you send me some information, maybe with a PM. Thanks.
Just about every modern chartplotter or marine gauge maker supports networked stuff these days. Maretron has a lot of good info and examples on their website. They were one of the first 'small players' to get into making more versatile sensors and displays at prices a lot less than what the major players were gouging. That and they offer a lot of technical info online.

You don't have to go "whole hog" on the system. A simple setup using a 4" multi-function gauge that can display multiple sensor values is one place to start. Lots of companies make such gauges, in various sizes. Furuno, Simrad, Raymarine, Maretron, B&G, etc.

An important thing to remember is don't overcrowd too many important readings on too few a set of gauges. There are some values that need to be visible at all times (engine temps, depth, etc). Resist the temptation to use rotating pages on small gauges. You miss things that way... things that get expensive to repair when not monitored. While a chart plotter can display engine data, having that on a dedicated separate gauge keeps it visible without poking around on a screen.

A networked system of sensors will likely be more expensive than old school analog gauges, sensors and wires all over the place. One upside is you get rid of a lot of wiring spaghetti and troubleshooting hassles. Another is you get flexibility in showing more data without a lot of individual gauges.
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Old 24-08-2018, 09:30   #23
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

May I suggest that Blue Sea Systems has a very good app that allows you to calculate wire sizes, given the effect of ambient heat, type of load, bundling, etc. It started out as a simple calculator, and has grown to be very comprehensive.

I'd also recommend that you consider their if you're going to the trouble of moving your existing panel. I had them make a custom panel for my Alerion, and it's just gorgeous and fits my needs precisely.

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Old 24-08-2018, 09:34   #24
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

The wire under consideration (per the posted link) is not tinned and therefore problematic for marine use. Not forbidden, but you will, over time, end up with corrosion at the terminals. Better to spend the $$$ for marine grade tinned wire IMHO.
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Old 24-08-2018, 10:08   #25
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Roger View Post
I plan to re-place all the separate and loose wires from my pedestal pod and engine instruments, to the electrical panel in my saloon. It is a distance of approximately 17 feet and there are 30 wires, all 12 volt.
Is there any reason why I can’t use a single multi core cable with 30 conductor wires? This will be a lot cheaper than buying separate wires, and easier to install? My present wires vary between 16 and 14 AWG. Which thickness will be best? 16 AWG is half the price of 14 AWG.
Thanks in advance. JR.
17ft X 2 as you need to compensate for the circuit
so assuming 15 positive and 15 negative
as posted early you can use a slave fuse box closer to the pedestal reducing the run for 28 wires reducing cable size as voltage drop will be lower
you will need to beef up you one positive and one negative lead to the main panel using voltage drop calculations and max amperage from all instruments this allows less long wire runs and less bundling over a length of time assuming that the instrument panels have a low amperage you will get away with a low wire awg less cost over all although you will need to get a fuse box
really if you want better advice you would need to gives us the total amps of the instrumentation the highest amperage from one of the instruments
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Old 24-08-2018, 10:23   #26
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

If it's instruments as you suggest I would think 16 AWG would be fine. many use much smaller than that.
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Old 24-08-2018, 10:45   #27
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

Thanks everyone for this continued support, although it’s getting a bit above my amateur electricians head.
I’m going to the boat in a few days when I will count and catalog the wires and take pictures of the pod, which includes a Raymarine chart plotter and a digital wind direction/speed instrument. I think these are already plugged for NMEA?
By the way, I’ve previously used the Blue Sea panel wizard, which came up with over $1000! There is nothing wrong with my old panel, it’s the wiring to it which is suspect, if no dangerous.
I will then report back. JR.
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Old 24-08-2018, 11:23   #28
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

I have used some braided cover material to make my own loom. Got tired of tywraps or covers that were hard to replace a wire in. These allow you to pull a new wire through. The stuff I have is much more open weave than this picture. I have several feet here.
What I have found is you make up a multi wire loom and sure enough, you end up later needing one more wire, or one bigger gauge etc. Use this type of cover, make up what you need with a couple extras and/or messenger lines to pull future wire.
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Old 24-08-2018, 13:54   #29
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

Why not use a PVC conduit that you can pull your wires as you need them. All you need is a string twice as long as as the conduit. Then you can put a tee anywhere you like to have wires coming from different sources. You can add wires or remove wires anytime in the future. Cost shouldn't be the main concern when it comes to electrical safety. Quality equipment and a built in safety factor are more important.
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Old 24-08-2018, 15:48   #30
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Re: Multi conductor wire for re-wiring job?

Birds nest wiring is intolerable. Bus-bars and local fuses eliminate most of it.

If one MUST switch everything on board from one position, do what the car-makers do and use relays alongside the apparatus to be switched, and run the low-current activation wires using a common return leg, to your switches. Also to any LED condition indicator lights which are of interest at the control panel.

Main-frame telecommunications connection wiring is colour-coded, tinned and suitable for low-current marine use, such as operating relays or LED indicators showing a pump is running, or a circuit such as a gas monitor is active. Aircraft wiring too is often suitable.. Local military disposals stores often have cheap goodies and electrical tinned cables useful in boats. There is no higher quality obtainable at such a reasonable price--if you can just lay your hands on what you need.

There is no way I would be running heavy cables to and from a control panel. Activation circuits maybe, but nothing drawing more than five amps max.

The engine controls should all operate through their own relays, but these often need five amps. Use heavier wire for these--but I have my engine controls on their own panel, mounted on a bulkhead above the helm, and to which the hydraulic steering was attached.. It would be OK to have this engine control panel mounted on the steering pedestal--but its wiring should be entirely separate in its own loom, separated from any other wiring.

In places where there are a lot of wires and not much space, tying them into laced bundles, with the circuits labelled, is helpful. Faults are easier to find and less likely to occur. Most of the bus-bar fittings supplied to yachts are inadequate and of poor quality. Again, direct disposals have better stuff, or you can make your own from brass drawn sections using a small drill press and a set of small metric taps and dies. Mine worked by having a hole drilled in the side of the square bar, which was then threaded for a 5 mm stainless bolt. From the top through to the bottom of the bar, a smaller hole is drilled right through from top to bottom. Wires can be inserted from above or below. The side hole which intersects the wire holes is the one is being threaded, wires to be connected may be inserted from above or below and the lock bolt tightened on them. All cabinets containing these connections need to be air-tight and dessicated with silica gel sachets. They are rarely opened once the vessel is wired--and the drier they are, the less trouble one will have with them.
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