Maxsea TZ, NAIS-300, Maretron USB100 all on N2K

[DotDun]

Following your line of reasoning, the PSTN would never go away, RF delivering television signals would last forever, and Keyspan would be selling USB/serial adapters for another 50 years!

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No, following my line of reasoning, better suited technologies get developed even when old ones are usable. I don't see any link with PSTN etc.

Sorry, I didn't provide enough context (if you lived in my world, you would have understood! )

The PSTN pundits are arguing that the Internet shouldn't replace the PSTN because of reliability, privacy, etc., etc. Fact is the market has accepted the level of service the Internet delivers to voice and video applications and it's time for the PSTN to die. Even though it only has 40% of the customers it once had and is 2.5 times more expensive to deliver service to each of it's customers, they are still arguing it's needed for the greater good.

I was attempting to provide an example of a general purpose network replacing a purpose built network.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I don't agree to accept that as you write it. The only reason that the Ethernet solution is cheaper today is because it is produced much more and off the shelf modules are available for what you describe. There is nothing particularly expensive about electronics used for n2k. Yes, the connectors are much more expensive but I am sure every boater is happy to pay that price for the weather sealing they provide.

And of course the manufacturers let us pay more for the n2k versions of sensors. They will do the same with Ethernet based ones, even if the cost to produce it would be lower. They will only let you keep those $$$ in your pocket when the market forces them to do that. Airmar pretty much has a monopoly on the transducers anyway. As long as they don't become too greedy, nobody is gonna challenge them any time soon I think.

So, what business is Airmar in? Obviously transducer AND networking. My main point is that the price paid for the value received on their networking products far exceeds that of more general purpose networking gear.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yes well, the weatherproofing of Ubiquity is as good as possible for their price but yes I understand what you mean and I like Ethernet too. Let's compare the two like this:

1. n2k sensors.

Wind/weather sensor at masthead. An in-line terminator lives here and the n2k backbone cable runs down the mast, exits it and connects to a T-connector. From that T a drop-cable runs forward to a depth/speed/temp tri-ducer. Also from the T, the backbone continues aft, snaking along compass, GPS, computers, displays, APs etc. with in the middle a power injector. At the very end another terminator.

2. ethernet sensors.

Let's assume they decide to use small enough solid weatherproofed connectors. Now we have to find a central location where we mount an industrial Ethernet switch that is DC powered and has POE ports. These units are 48V. Okay, let's assume they create 12V versions. Now we have the switch and can start pulling cables from that switch to each and every individual sensor. That looks awfully much like 0183 cabling to a 0183 MUX, doesn't it. I hate that and the total amount of cabling is horrific. But we have the sales in place and connect the sensors which are same price as the n2k versions because the amount of sensors sold determines price more than cost differences to build them.
Now we can use a web browser to update and configure the sensor which works great and we use a computer that we have anyway, saving $400.- Now we start using the sensors. They put what, 100 bits per second on a dedicated cable rated for at least 100,000,000 bits per second. Clearly, the available bandwidth of Ethernet is wasted on these simple sensors, or at least not an advantage.

You obviously haven't had to perform much troubleshooting on a bus wired system? Ever had an o-scope connected to thicknet or thinnet? Especially when you had no idea of the physical path it runs? I'll gladly run wire for future ease of troubleshooting. Smart switches perform a great deal of automatic isolation such that the remaining devices still communicate when there is a problem wire or device.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Next we get to compatibility. We connect the computer to the Ethernet and then what? Best you hope for is a standard packet format among manufacturers, like we have with NMEA and software vendors who slowly start accepting and supporting that. I do not see any improvement regarding compatibility, although the physical interface from a computer is easier. But cost savings is just the same $400.- mentioned earlier.

$400 for Maretron devices, $400 for Airmar, $500 for Garmin, >$1000 for Raymarine, >$1000 for Furuno, ?? for Simrad. How does one mix and match vendors when you have to buy separate gear to support each of them? Oh yeah, that's their secret marketing scheme to get you to stay with a single vendor.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I'm fine with n2k as it is and almost agree with the mix and match between n2k and Ethernet as done by Furuno. I would only put 1 connector on the displays and output n2k from the AIS box. It would be nice when they standardize Ethernet protocols among themselves so that a Garmin radar sensor works on Furuno display etc. How realistic is that to happen? It would require an organized consumer commitment to it and support from at least one manufacturer.

cheers,
Nick.

I believe we are more in agreement than disagreement...

[s/v Jedi]

Hi DotDun,

Ah well, PSTN is obsolete, a dinosaur. There still some old folk whining but time will fix that too
But the Internet outperforms what can be done with PSTN in every way.

Airmar is active in n2k yes but it's kinda a new thing for them. I don't understand why they didn't introduce that ultrasonic triducer with n2k though... It all sounded like things were going bad...

Bus wiring systems... Oh my. I put many AMP taps onto the good old thumb-thick ethernet cables (10Base5).. before it was called thicknet haha. From that period on, I (my ISP company) have been working at the roots of the Internet in Europe and created one of he largest networks and serious datacenter at the time. Every day, we used more cat5 cable than Italy consumed spaghetti . You know what the only thing was that never failed? That good old thick Ethernet cable. I think it will still be there. Read here: http://afnog.org/archives/archives/msg00958.html

If I were to have a say in how it's gonna be done on boats, it would be fiber optic, no other option would be acceptable or me. And everybody knows this is how it should be and yet they keep playing with copper.

Originally Posted by DotDun

I believe we are more in agreement than disagreement...

Impossible, we should discuss that over a beer

cheers,
Nick.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Bus wiring systems... Oh my. I put many AMP taps onto the good old thumb-thick ethernet cables (10Base5).. before it was called thicknet haha. From that period on, I (my ISP company) have been working at the roots of the Internet in Europe and created one of he largest networks and serious datacenter at the time. Every day, we used more cat5 cable than Italy consumed spaghetti . You know what the only thing was that never failed? That good old thick Ethernet cable. I think it will still be there. Read here: Re: IXP hardware

Hmm, 10mbps CSMA/CD doesn't have a lot of value today.....

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Impossible, we should discuss that over a beer

You sail, I'll buy the beer! :^)

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Bus wiring systems... Oh my. I put many AMP taps onto the good old thumb-thick ethernet cables (10Base5).. before it was called thicknet haha. From that period on, I (my ISP company) have been working at the roots of the Internet in Europe and created one of he largest networks and serious datacenter at the time. Every day, we used more cat5 cable than Italy consumed spaghetti . You know what the only thing was that never failed? That good old thick Ethernet cable. I think it will still be there. Read here: Re: IXP hardware

I'll bet we have mutual acquaintances in the region.

[s/v Jedi]

OMG...

I have a Furuno GP-33 GPS and when I activate a route I do see it on a Furuno RD-33 display bearing, distance etc. but it's not on the autopilot!

So, I look with the analyzer and see it gives a magnetic bearing... meaning.... that the problem with the USB100 is probably not that it gives a True bearing.

Looking at other fields, I see that the GP-33 gives weird waypoint data:

Origin Waypoint number: 10,000
Destination Waypoint number: 1

I am going to study the Simrad AP25 docs. I wish the N2KAnalyzer could inject PGNs... or can it?! I'll look at that too.

cheers,
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Okay, did some more testing and believe the problem is indeed with origin and destination waypoints. Both need to be valid numbers and destination must be higher than origin or so it seems.

time to call the tech support lines :bang head: oh wait, it's Christmas

ciao!
Nick.

[DotDun]

Does the AP25 give you the option to chose 'source' of nav data? If not, you might try cold booting it - it may have locked on the source address of the MFD8/12 and simply doesn't see the 129283/4 from a new source.

My RM X-10 does not give me that choice. So the AP must simply be looking for 129283/4 PGNs. RM does state in the manual that only ONE of each on a network - can't have (2) CP producing nav data.

I call if half-fast N2K compliance!

[s/v Jedi]

Hi DotDun,

I don't think that is the case. I looks like the AP rejects it, as does the Furuno MFD12. Also, the Maretron DSM-250 also rejects the data for it's highway display. Still, I'm having trouble remembering the source selection for the AP and it's not obvious when playing with settings either. I'm being careful because I don't want to do it's configuration (sea trials) all over again

ciao!
Nick.

[DotDun]

Nick,

Off topic....

How is the alarm sound on the RD33? Is it as loud as the MFD12? I've often wondered if that would be a good anchor alarm, low power draw.


Thanks,

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Nick,

Off topic....

How is the alarm sound on the RD33? Is it as loud as the MFD12? I've often wondered if that would be a good anchor alarm, low power draw.

Thanks,

Haven't tried it yet... but for alarms, I am very impressed with Maretron, did you look into that? And their N2K alarm module? Wish I had all their sensors...

I will come with a RD-33 review very soon

cheers,
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

F I X E D

Well, mostly fixed. DotDun gets the price again

I have the autopilot now accepting navigation data (goto waypoint) from both the USB-100 and the GP-33. The Simrad AP requires you to go into the service menu and perform a global SimNet reset. After that, it forces you to run the wizard that listens to the SimNet (=N2K) data and select sources etc.

There is one problem left and that is the erroneous waypoint info that the GP-33 puts in PGN 129284. The Maretron display tries to make sense out of it which doesn't computer and thus the highway displays fails to show BTW, DTW and XTE information. It does show a missing destination waypoint and an origin waypoint 10,001.

The USB100 transmits a destination waypoint 1 and a missing origin waypoint. This is acceptable for the Maretron display.

The MFD12 when converting from NavNet to N2K for MaxSea, transmits a destination waypoint 10 at the moment and a missing origin waypoint.

Clearly this system is so that when you follow a route, then the origin waypoint will become the previous waypoint etc. etc. It is only the GP-33 doing this wrong.

The Simrad pilot ignores this info and accepts either true or magnetic headings while it is receiving variation info from connected GPS sensor(s).

So, the USB100 will drive the Simrad pilot, as will the MFD12 and the GP-33. I guess I have enough sources now

Interesting with this pilot-needs-reset behavior is that you can mix between Furuno MFD displays and connected MaxSea computers because it is always the master MFD that speaks on the N2K network.

cheers,
Nick.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

F I X E D

Cool!!!

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Well, mostly fixed. DotDun gets the price again

I have the autopilot now accepting navigation data (goto waypoint) from both the USB-100 and the GP-33. The Simrad AP requires you to go into the service menu and perform a global SimNet reset. After that, it forces you to run the wizard that listens to the SimNet (=N2K) data and select sources etc.

That doesn't mess with the other settings requiring a sea trial does it?

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

There is one problem left and that is the erroneous waypoint info that the GP-33 puts in PGN 129284. The Maretron display tries to make sense out of it which doesn't computer and thus the highway displays fails to show BTW, DTW and XTE information. It does show a missing destination waypoint and an origin waypoint 10,001.

A good question for the Furuno support forum.

Furuno USA Forum

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The USB100 transmits a destination waypoint 1 and a missing origin waypoint. This is acceptable for the Maretron display.

The MFD12 when converting from NavNet to N2K for MaxSea, transmits a destination waypoint 10 at the moment and a missing origin waypoint.

Clearly this system is so that when you follow a route, then the origin waypoint will become the previous waypoint etc. etc. It is only the GP-33 doing this wrong.

I can't imagine what a AP would do with origin waypoint. All it should care about is destination wp, DTW, BTW, MV, XTE, and SOG.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The Simrad pilot ignores this info and accepts either true or magnetic headings while it is receiving variation info from connected GPS sensor(s).

Wow, something works like it should!! Kudos to Navico!!!

You may want to check to see which has the most accurate magnetic variation, the GPS or MFD. The reason I ask is I discovered that since MFDs get software updates more often they typically have more accurate MV. The Furuno 330 GPS is stating 4.8 degrees for my location and the real value is 5.1 degrees. It's not that .3 will bother anything, but the GPS doesn't adjust over time (it was loaded with a 3-4 year old db). I don't know if the MFD adjusts with time, or their db is updated more often, I just find MFDs more accurate. If you find the MFD more accurate, you may be able to stop the GPS from putting out MV and just let the AP get it from the MFD.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So, the USB100 will drive the Simrad pilot, as will the MFD12 and the GP-33. I guess I have enough sources now

Interesting with this pilot-needs-reset behavior is that you can mix between Furuno MFD displays and connected MaxSea computers because it is always the master MFD that speaks on the N2K network.

cheers,
Nick.

You would think they would have a more graceful way to switch sources of nav data. But in their defense, they probably figure there aren't very many NERDs that would want to do such!!

Glad to see it works! I wonder if I can beat my RM into submission!!!

[s/v Jedi]

I had already posted to the Furuno forum but as a noob there my post needs the green light from a moderator and these frakkers don't even work during Christmas (joke of course, I'm very impressed with Furuno support)

The reset doesn't harm any of the difficult settings. BTW, my pilot predates Navico.. it even has both SimNet and RobNet (as in Robertson) connectors on the back! I'm very impressed that it shows 100% compatibility with N2K after putting that adapter cable in.

The origin waypoint... well, it is important when you're a geek (includes Maretron). The thing is, when you activate you may not be on the origin waypoint so you don't want to be forced to reset XTE upon activating the pilot. Also, it has a highway display which needs the origin too...

p.s. I see that Actisense converts AIS between N2K and 0183...

ciao!
Nick.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I had already posted to the Furuno forum but as a noob there my post needs the green light from a moderator and these frakkers don't even work during Christmas (joke of course, I'm very impressed with Furuno support)

The reset doesn't harm any of the difficult settings. BTW, my pilot predates Navico.. it even has both SimNet and RobNet (as in Robertson) connectors on the back! I'm very impressed that it shows 100% compatibility with N2K after putting that adapter cable in.

That is impressive from an early N2K product.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The origin waypoint... well, it is important when you're a geek (includes Maretron). The thing is, when you activate you may not be on the origin waypoint so you don't want to be forced to reset XTE upon activating the pilot. Also, it has a highway display which needs the origin too...

Just highlight the track on the Furuno, right click, and restart. The highway will line up perfectly!

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

p.s. I see that Actisense converts AIS between N2K and 0183...

ciao!
Nick.

I found on the Furuno forum that there is no support for AIS on N2K on NavNet3D. I hope 2.08 (or ?) comes out soon, I'm tired of living with the currents errors. (leave tide/current overlay on causes reboot & extra 126208 traffic on the N2K).

[colemj]

I'm a noob with all of this, but just completed a N2K install with Maretron USB100 and Actisense 183-2000 converter as well as Simrad autopilot, Furuno radar/MFD8 and Standard Horizon AIS VHF.

Plugged the USB100 into a laptop running Coastal Explorer, set a waypoint and sent it to the autopilot - no problem, it immediately took the waypoint and steered for it. I haven't figured out how to send stuff to the Furuno yet - the same procedure as for the Simrad doesn't work with the Furuno (but I don't really care about that because I won't be using the Furuno and CE at the same time).

Interestingly, my quick test of getting the AIS onto the N2K network via the Actisense wasn't successful. The Furuno was set to get the AIS info from the Actisense (it actually showed up on the Furuno setup menu as a source for AIS), but no AIS data appears. CE sees the AIS data, but is complaining that the sentences are too long and is not using them. Again, this was an end of day test by twisting some wires together and hoping for the best. I get confused with 0183 and may have the wrong wires connected.

Mark