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Old 14-10-2016, 22:28   #121
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

Thanks Kenomac ....all looks under control despite the conditions
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Old 15-10-2016, 02:00   #122
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Originally Posted by seaskip View Post
Hey there folks. Anyone who thinks radar isn't desirable? I reckon it'd be like expecting your surgeon to go without X-rays.
If you have a suspicious mole on your butt, why would you waste money on an x-ray...sure it's possible it could find something wrong but it's not a wise investment of limited resources. On the other hand if you fell and you foot is now resting at a 90 degree angle to straight ahead, only a fool wouldn't take an x-ray before sending you into surgery.

I've yet to see any comment saying "radar isn't desirable". Plenty that say it's nice but necessary depending on where and how you cruise. Then you have those saying if commercial ships (who go out in any weather and often have far less ability to maneuver) use it, cruisers must have it, it's roughly the same as the mole on the butt example.

This is the fundamental issue in the debate. No one can afford every possible piece of equipment and the space and power to run them. If you have a large boat with a healthy budget, cruise in foggy congested waters and go out regardless of conditions, radar makes a lot of sense. On the other hand on a smaller boat with less space and power cruising in areas with only rare fog , a willingness to wait before heading out in fog and needing to decide among a variety of safety devices to purchase and install, radar may not be the top need.

PS: I too was confused why radar would be needed to avoid a large marker that was in it's correct position if you have a functional chart plotter.

PPS: As far as the people running the river system at night, it's not the barges that concern me. They are typically well lit and seem to be better than ocean going ships about making first contact via VHF. It's the logs floating just below the surface that are difficult to see during the day and most often wouldn't show up on radar.
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Old 15-10-2016, 03:56   #123
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pirate Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
And your's would be a dumb idea, IMHO, that would have landed you on the rocks someplace on Santa Maria.

You don't know what you're talking about, you weren't there. And sure, it's always easy to Monday morning quarterback and second guess a situation months later on front and of your computer screen.

We were never in Bonifacio prior to the storm, we were sailing past it on our way down from Calvi into what we thought would be 30-40knot winds on our way to Olbia (not the 40-49knots encountered). 30-40 knot winds are well within our comfort zone on our boat. FYI, it was a Northeasterly gale and we were obviously sailing on a broad reach and not "headed into them" as you suggest. Watch the video next time, and read what I wrote. We followed a course 1/2 mile off the coast of Corsica down past Bonifacio then cut south just west of the marker buoy. We didn't follow the straight line on the goto... I just used that to show you the marker buoy and intended destination. We try to sail as far off a leeward shore as possible in those conditions.

Get your facts straight and please stop making stuff up. Again.
Ahahahaaa... Whatever..!!
As for making things up.. I'm not the one altering courses and Go To points to suit my argument.. the first had you within metres of the Cardinal buoy.. the second had you well S of it.
Last time I went through there we left Bonifaccio at 10pm.. wind was around 25kts when we cleared the lee of the land and I passed between the red buoy and the cardinal mark... where if you look you'll see there's plenty of depth for small craft.. and one clears S Maria by a mile.. also by then the wind starts dropping as you start clearing the acceleration zone.
Anyway.. I'll leave you to your silly mind games.. Enjoy..
PS: From the video the lee shore would be to stbd..
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Old 15-10-2016, 05:46   #124
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

Whether you have radar or not is your choice. I personally would not do passages in low visibility without it.

Differences between you and me:

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
PS: I too was confused why radar would be needed to avoid a large marker that was in it's correct position if you have a functional chart plotter.
I want to know where the marker actually is, not where it's suppose to be. In low vis, i.e., you can't see it with human eyes, radar will show you where it is, a chart shows you where it is suppose to be (at the time the chart was made!). Have you ever come upon where a marker is suppose to be and it was missing? Is it really missing or is the light out? Or it's been moved and your chart is wrong? Radar confirms where it is or not vs. you spinning around like an idiot, all puckered up, at the helm with a spot light at 2am.

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PPS: As far as the people running the river system at night, it's not the barges that concern me. They are typically well lit and seem to be better than ocean going ships about making first contact via VHF. It's the logs floating just below the surface that are difficult to see during the day and most often wouldn't show up on radar.
Typically?? What about the non-typical, yeah, the barge that the lights stopped working? I want to know for sure! You feel safe depending on the other vessel to see and you first and hail on the radio? I've witnessed enough "things" on the water not playing by the rules to not depend 100% on others.

Radar shows me reality vs. "suppose to be" in real time so I can make navigational decisions.
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Old 15-10-2016, 05:59   #125
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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I want to know where the marker actually is, not where it's suppose to be. In low vis, i.e., you can't see it with human eyes, radar will show you where it is, a chart shows you where it is suppose to be (at the time the chart was made!). Have you ever come upon where a marker is suppose to be and it was missing? Is it really missing or is the light out? Or it's been moved and your chart is wrong? Radar confirms where it is or not vs. you spinning around like an idiot, all puckered up, at the helm with a spot light at 2am.


In the example, it was indicated that the marker was found because of radar....if it was in it's expected position, it shouldn't have been a surprise. If the marker is moved or in the wrong position, you are still spinning around like an idiot, all puckered up, because you don't now if a storm pushed it out of position or if it was moved to account for a shifting channel.

Typically?? What about the non-typical, yeah, the barge that the lights stopped working? I want to know for sure! You feel safe depending on the other vessel to see and you first and hail on the radio? I've witnessed enough "things" on the water not playing by the rules to not depend 100% on others.

Pretty rare to have a commercial tow completely unlit and still under way. But then again as stated, the bigger issue is radar doesn't help with the tree trunk floating downstream just at the surface. I've seen enough of them during the day that it's not worth the risk to try it at night.

Radar shows me reality vs. "suppose to be" in real time so I can make navigational decisions.
This is a good example of radar encouraging someone to do something risky.

Again not saying radar is bad. If I wound up running on the river system at night and had radar, I would have it on...but I would still be pretty puckered hoping not to hit debris.
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Old 15-10-2016, 06:25   #126
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Each to their own I guess.. never use radar.. never wanted it.
Sailed all over the place on the Mk 1 eyeball.. as for the port channel marker at Bonifaccio.. it sits on a rocky outcrop.. definitely bigger than any size Oyster.
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Maybe because I sail inside that buoy.. guess its all down to personal experiences Mr Kenomac.. as for ridiculous statements I think the comment about not being on your boat is one.
Its often commented on how close I sail to capes.. some do.. others don't.
Stop judging others by your limitations..
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Likely because its a N'ly gale and if I were daft enough to be out there I'd want to be as close to Lavezzi as possible to lessen the sea's then head out and run across the top of the Islands, around 6 miles.. and then SE rather than head into them..
Tho' if you remember the first time you posted this video a while back.. I said I'd not take a boat out of Bonifaccio in those conditions in the first place.
Notice you moved your go to a few miles to the SE.. lol
You brought up the channel marker in your first post, I then corrected you by showing the channel marker I was referring to (pictured). It's four miles away from the one you sighted for your example.

You then went on to boast that you would have taken a course heading almost directly into 50 knot wind and waves to weave a course between the rocks and cardinal buoys to sail "close to capes." We saw the marker buoy on radar (which you don't have or use) and sailed south away from the marker buoy and the cape.

Who's the one with the vivid imagination? I sure wouldn't want a delivery skipper threading the needle between those rocks and the cardinal buoy on my boat in the conditions pictured in the video with the radar turned off.
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Old 15-10-2016, 06:47   #127
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
This is a good example of radar encouraging someone to do something risky.

Again not saying radar is bad. If I wound up running on the river system at night and had radar, I would have it on...but I would still be pretty puckered hoping not to hit debris.
Risky? I think it's far more risky to make a low vis, i.e. nighttime, passages without radar. I've transited plenty of channels after dark where radar showed me/confirmed the position of the markers. Ever run the NW channel out of Key West in 30kts of east wind at 3am? If you venture outside that channel, you are sitting on a reef. Yep, the majority of markers I can see with a spot light, but the few I couldn't radar showed me where they were. Since you can see the line of markers with radar, it's easy to see if you drifting towards the edge of the channel, something you can't tell by simply spotting the next marker ahead.

I've also tiptoed thru fleets of shrimpers, IIRC, 17 was the most at one time (none with AIS), using radar/ARPA to stay 1/2nm away. Yes, all the shrimp boats were lit like a football stadium, but where they are trolling and changing direction, it's damn nice to plot a course ahead of time vs. playing 'bumper cars' with full sails up. I'll guarantee you won't make out their nav lights amongst the deck lights, let alone judge CPA visually. Radio? None will answer the radio, they are on autopilot with all hands on the back of the boat working!

Nope, radar doesn't see underwater! Might be a reason to stay out of the rivers at night, but I have not witnessed floating logs in the GoM/Atlantic/Caribbean.
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Old 15-10-2016, 06:57   #128
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pirate Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
You brought up the channel marker in your first post, I then corrected you by showing the channel marker I was referring to (pictured). It's four miles away from the one you sighted for your example.

You then went on to boast that you would have taken a course heading almost directly into 50 knot wind and waves to weave a course between the rocks and cardinal buoys to sail "close to capes." We saw the marker buoy on radar (which you don't have or use) and sailed south away from the marker buoy and the cape.

Who's the one with the vivid imagination? I sure wouldn't want a delivery skipper threading the needle between those rocks and the cardinal buoy on my boat in the conditions pictured in the video with the radar turned off.
I did not boast.. I did.. and that passage is not a threading its around 1/2mile wide from the island to the danger mark just NW of the cardinal buoy and barely that far to cross.
As for your comment that I said you headed into the wind.. read again and you may just barely comprehend I referred to heading into the islands.. which considering your end destination in the gale you allege is threading the needle..
I much prefer a 5-6 mile beat and then a run on a beam reach outside that group of islands.. becoming a broad reach a few miles further on and a fast run to Olbia.
As for my delivery capabilities.. so far so good..
Maybe you should chillax and stop going for lighthearted comments like an attack dog
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Old 15-10-2016, 07:00   #129
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

I need to feel the love.

Let this be and end to the fighting and a return to discussing the subject in hand.

Please.
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Old 15-10-2016, 07:04   #130
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

As for me, I was raised on RADAR.

Hard for me to let it go. So very useful expecially on entering the River Ribble with a Pea Souper so thick you could cut it with a Fork... and....... 2 P&O ferries of indeterminate size but known to be larger than Fleetwood town somewhere behind, location not quite sure but the bow wave is pushing you up the river

I love RADAR.
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Old 15-10-2016, 07:23   #131
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

During a passage not so long ago from New York to Virgin Gorda we had 4-5 days of fairly constant squalls as a cold front unexpectedly followed us south. Particularly at night, radar was critical in allowing us to see them coming, prepare accordingly, and sometimes thread our way through them. Without it, our progress would have been painfully slow and signficantly more tiring.

That's just one example among those that others have cited. Radar is one of those things that when it's useful, it's REALLY useful, even critical, even if the rest of the time it seems like just "nice to have".
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Old 15-10-2016, 07:36   #132
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pirate Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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I need to feel the love.

Let this be and end to the fighting and a return to discussing the subject in hand.

Please.
Who's fighting.. I'm just holding the stiff bristle broom.
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Old 15-10-2016, 07:40   #133
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

I'm going to post this short video one more time, it's not the same as the storm video. Listen and watch as we try to sort out want's appeared on the radar screen. My wife has a chartplotter in her hands, but cannot see the marker buoy due to the weather conditions and the small size of the buoy on the chartplotter... she has a lot on her plate at that moment, visuals, chartplotter, radar, AIS and bracing herself. The marker buoy wasn't broadcasting an AIS signal.

The radar shadow is what got her attention... our attention. Then we were able to change course, hold our course or whatever was necessary to avoid the buoy and the hazard it was indicating.

I can't think of a better way to demonstrate to the non believers in radar, of how important the device is at the times when it's needed.
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Old 15-10-2016, 08:15   #134
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

I fear to tread...

Kenomac, I get your point about finding the buoy. I also get Boatman's point about staying put another day or two when the wind is forecast at 30-40.

I'm kind of impressed, though, that you tuned the radar well enough to pick up a buoy close by in that slop.

Which brings up another point- if you're going to have radar, you need to learn how to use it. I was almost t-boned in a pea-soup fog up near Newport, Rhode Island a few years ago. It was by a sportfisherman running over 20 knots with his radome spinning. Fortunately, i appeared out of the fog just in time for him to spin the wheel hard over and miss me. He had a guy on a jet-ski following right behind him.

And, no, I didn't have radar at the time. Which is why I do have radar now, I suppose.
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Old 15-10-2016, 08:36   #135
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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I fear to tread...

Kenomac, I get your point about finding the buoy. I also get Boatman's point about staying put another day or two when the wind is forecast at 30-40.

I'm kind of impressed, though, that you tuned the radar well enough to pick up a buoy close by in that slop.

Which brings up another point- if you're going to have radar, you need to learn how to use it. I was almost t-boned in a pea-soup fog up near Newport, Rhode Island a few years ago. It was by a sportfisherman running over 20 knots with his radome spinning. Fortunately, i appeared out of the fog just in time for him to spin the wheel hard over and miss me. He had a guy on a jet-ski following right behind him.

And, no, I didn't have radar at the time. Which is why I do have radar now, I suppose.
No need to fear, this is a discussion. Regarding your stay put comment when the forecast is for 30-40 knots. Why would we? Many boats do just fine in those conditions. I certainly wouldn't want to head directly into forty knots, but sailing along with it behind us is just fine.

You made an excellent point regarding learning how to use radar. It doesn't do any good if it's turned off or if someone hasn't practiced using it. My wife can't imagine setting off without it; we had it on our Hunter and now on our Oyster.

For those who wish to criticize our use of the engine in the video, we were sailing along under bare poles with the engine at 1600 revvs to charge our batteries and aid with steering. Basically, having a good time.

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