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Old 13-10-2016, 04:44   #31
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

If you sail at night, in the rain, or in the fog without radar you will probably die.
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Old 13-10-2016, 06:29   #32
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Stupidly the OP doesn't say where he is, nor his intentions. But including Fatty in his post probably means a tropical circumnavigation.

On mine there was 2 hours of fog in 30 000 nms.

You don't need a Radar.

If someone is staying in a fog bound area the choice may be different.

But with all troll posts there is little detail so they can attack your thoughts.





Marm
I don't agree with your "don't need a radar" opinion. It's come in handy and spotted objects not on the ais many times especially at night.
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Old 13-10-2016, 06:33   #33
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

I like both. Radar is a must, AIS a good aid beyond radar. Helps while on watch at night and in limited visibility really helps. MARPHA is very valuable.


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Old 13-10-2016, 06:55   #34
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Originally Posted by Numawan View Post
It was a difficult night because the wind was very variable (5 to 25 kts), and of course on the nose, because the rain was reducing visibility to less to 1 NM, and because there were a lot of fishing boats around.

A picture of my AIS screen that night ...
Attachment 132793
What about the boats without AIS? Did you see them? Radar would see them!
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Old 13-10-2016, 08:37   #35
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

We were keeping watch. Not seen any boat without AIS that night. On the rest of the trip, the boats without AIS that we saw were all sailing boats.

Here in Europe, it seems to me that all commercial vessels have AIS now. Even small fishing boats, which was not so obvious a few years ago.
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Old 13-10-2016, 09:06   #36
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Originally Posted by Numawan View Post
We were keeping watch. Not seen any boat without AIS that night. On the rest of the trip, the boats without AIS that we saw were all sailing boats.

Here in Europe, it seems to me that all commercial vessels have AIS now. Even small fishing boats, which was not so obvious a few years ago.
That's the point. Radar would have seen the boats without AIS. Radar can see what human eyes can't.

I won't guess on how many boats have/don't have AIS transceivers, but I know it's way less than 100%. I want to see everything, sailboats, dinghies, and even those as small as kayaks! I don't want to hit anything!

Radar will show you everything, all other tools, including human eyes, show less than everything!
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Old 13-10-2016, 09:25   #37
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
If you sail at night, in the rain, or in the fog without radar you will probably die.
You probably WON'T die, but

1. You've greatly increased the odds that you will get into a collision with a vessel you can't see and is not broadcasting AIS;

2. You've lost the ability to be alerted to objects in your path which you can't see (guard zones);

3. You've lost the ability to guide yourself around or between buoys which you can't see.

4. You've lost the ability to measure range and bearing to landmarks for navigation and general orientation.


But die? Probably not. But you probably also won't die if you blindfold yourself and walk across a busy street. Amounts to very much the same thing.
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Old 13-10-2016, 09:30   #38
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numawan View Post
We were keeping watch. Not seen any boat without AIS that night. On the rest of the trip, the boats without AIS that we saw were all sailing boats.

Here in Europe, it seems to me that all commercial vessels have AIS now. Even small fishing boats, which was not so obvious a few years ago.
Larger North Sea fishing vessels, as a rule, switch off their AIS while fishing, so that their competitors can't track them. That is despite the fact that larger vessels are obligated to use AIS. Smaller fishing vessels in the Channel and North Sea, not obligated to have AIS, as a rule, don't use AIS. Fishermen hate AIS because it gives away their best fishing spots.

The majority of recreational vessels don't have AIS, especially recreational fishing boats.

Almost no buoys have AIS.


AIS is a fantastic thing, but in no way a substitute for radar.
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Old 13-10-2016, 09:39   #39
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

I find sailing through fog eerie enough; without radar is would be terrifying.

If only someone could come up with an affordable, practical forward-looking sonar!

Fair winds,

Leo
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Old 13-10-2016, 09:42   #40
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

It all dpends on where you sail. I spent 35 in San Francisco and contrary to popular belief the fog there was mostly at 1,500 feet with good on the deck visibility - except for very, very rare ground fog winter mornings. Some might remember the Cosco Busan that hit the Bay Bridge in November of 2007.

In August 2016, bringing our boat up the coast to Vancouver Island, we experienced low, low fog most mornings once we got only as far north as Bodega Bay. We came close to a small fishing boat just outside the harbor. We had heavy fog at Havens Neck, Shelter Cove, Humboldt (Eureka bar entrance) and some other spots, like leaving Victoria Harbor and going up Haro Strait.

Now here in the Gulf Islands, there can and will be heavy fog.

It seems inappropriate at best to advise the OP about a yes or no about this subject without knowing where he intends to travel.
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Old 13-10-2016, 09:53   #41
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

As others have said, it depends on where and how the OP intends to cruise. But regardless of this, AIS is not a substitute for Radar, just like a chartplotter is not the same as the information from a depth sounder. In both cases the former is providing you with an approximation of reality which may, or may not be, actually real. The latter is providing real-time data of what is actually out there (within the limitations of the device and the operator).

AIS is solely dependent on someone (or something) else transmitting a signal. As has been repeated here, not everyone, or everything, is transmitting. And even when they do, AIS is tied to GPS. Ever notice the error range on your GPS receiver? It can quickly change from a few meters to many dozens or even into the hundreds, and that doesn't include signal occlusions due to weather, solar activity, etc. The same limitation is attached to chartplotters, except in this case it is confounded by the accuracy of the underlying charts, which may or may not be very accurate.

Radar, like sonar, is real-time information showing what is. Both have serious limitations, but those are in the user's control (at least to understand and therefore mitigate).

AIS is a great tool. I like my receiver. It is useful at times, but it is not the same as Radar.
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Old 13-10-2016, 10:06   #42
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

Check what other cruising sailors mention are the most important electronic item they have on their yacht! Radar is very important id you are a serious blue water cruiser. Colission avoidance is only one capability! Very important to pkay enough with the settings of the radar so when out there you know what setting will be needed in different circumstances. Ie lightening/rain storm with right setting you can have the dark clouds that form the center of the storm moving on the screen, telking you what direction storm moves in, important so you can avoid it by steering away from wirst part of storm. Few know that with right radar setting you can see whales in the water. I have been abke to avoid sleeping whales off East African coast at night! If you hit whale all kind of things can happen, as Hacking family found out on s/v Ocelot in Mozambican channel. The whale they hut whiplashed its tail beating a hull and causing damage, tgey were still lucky as they managed to sail on.
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Old 13-10-2016, 10:08   #43
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

You only need radar when your eyes are not at least as good (which is often the case). That said, I know of a recently commissioned high dollar sail boat that has no radar (or sat TV) because the owner wanted a real clean look. I suspect he will never use the boat at night or in fog.
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Old 13-10-2016, 10:10   #44
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

As a retired professional mariner and after 18 years of sailing the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans in a yacht (having started my career before RADAR was a common asset because of the price and the demands on electricity) my experience is: Never without one.

Even the most simple and low powered RADAR (head up and plain 12 nm maximum range) often makes the difference between shipwreck and/or collision or a successful passage and especially if singlehanding.
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Old 13-10-2016, 10:13   #45
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

ais doesnt see pangas and small fishing boats nor storms...
radar does. the few times i turned my radar on, i was able to see these lil insignificant things--especially pangas in darkness--before i ran em over.
when ais sees storms complete with names and direction i may consider it
until then, i figger it is no ones business where i am. unless i turn on spot so i am seen by friends and family.

ps. anyone not being able to see a hugeass tanker or ship should not be on water. just stay out of their way. that is not difficult to do , even in port of lost angeles, as i have experienced. kinda why the gods invented eyeballs.
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