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Old 16-10-2016, 05:34   #166
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pirate Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

Dockhead.. the DuFour 45 I delivered had radar and the young owner liked used it when he was on watch.. however when he went to get his head down I'd ask him to switch it off.. its not that I don't know how to work them.. being ex RN I gained knowledge of the basics in training before opting for Sonar Controller Anti-Submarine.. more hands on skill and exciting to chase, catch and sink something rather than just sit and look at something you could not control.
I just have an aversion to screens.. even my Nimble Nav program on my note book is a switch on occasionally for position sog and distance to go then back off again.
I get it that folk feel that (radar) is important but just not to me.. and I reckon I'm not unique in that.
This does not make us idiots.. nor unsafe navigators.. I've done Poole to Cherbourg/Alderney/Gurnsey hundreds of time.. all weathers, conditions and seasons and live to tell the tale.. follow the Rules and things work.

PS; The aversion to screens could come from 2yrs in Portland Squadron where we spent most of the time at battlestations putting various sections of the NATO fleets through their paces.. 4hrs on 4hrs off for weeks at a time.. lol
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Old 16-10-2016, 07:10   #167
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Dockhead.. the DuFour 45 I delivered had radar and the young owner liked used it when he was on watch.. however when he went to get his head down I'd ask him to switch it off.. its not that I don't know how to work them.. being ex RN I gained knowledge of the basics in training before opting for Sonar Controller Anti-Submarine.. more hands on skill and exciting to chase, catch and sink something rather than just sit and look at something you could not control.
I just have an aversion to screens.. even my Nimble Nav program on my note book is a switch on occasionally for position sog and distance to go then back off again.
I get it that folk feel that (radar) is important but just not to me.. and I reckon I'm not unique in that.
This does not make us idiots.. nor unsafe navigators.. I've done Poole to Cherbourg/Alderney/Gurnsey hundreds of time.. all weathers, conditions and seasons and live to tell the tale.. follow the Rules and things work.

PS; The aversion to screens could come from 2yrs in Portland Squadron where we spent most of the time at battlestations putting various sections of the NATO fleets through their paces.. 4hrs on 4hrs off for weeks at a time.. lol
You would be the exception to the rule, Phil! In this as in many other things
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Old 16-10-2016, 07:39   #168
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

AIS and RADAR are two different and complimentary tools.

AIS alone wont do you much good with that tricky night time entrance....or are you assuming those pretty images on the chart plotter are actually accurate? I use my RADAR often to verify charted details.

Plenty of small commercial vessels in developing countries whose captains dont even know what AIS means. Occassionally they may run lights though.

And yes, you can rarely get fog in some Tropical venues. Torrential rain is way more common...handy to able to "see" thru the blinding rain.

Nice to know when those big squalls are coming at night...but wait, squalls dont run AIS. RADAR is very useful for squall avoidance. Just used it recently to sail around a big beast of a squall off Cartagena. As a result, instead of getting out butts kicked, we just caught the edge and got a nice lift off of it.

Redundacy...recently just before departure on a longish coastal run...the owner damaged a cable which intergrated the AIS...glad we had RADAR too.


Ideally, you use all the tools at your disposal.
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Old 16-10-2016, 07:47   #169
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

So, I'm the OP. It sounds like radar makes you bitchy. I was hoping to learn a thing or two about radar but, I got a conversation of ppl that love to throw out a bunch of acronyms and pretend their info is best. Thanks to the other three ppl that have an actual answers. I guess I'll try another site.

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Old 16-10-2016, 07:47   #170
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pirate Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
You would be the exception to the rule, Phil! In this as in many other things
Awwww..!!
That's a sweet way to say I'm a weird old bastard...
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Old 16-10-2016, 07:49   #171
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Awwww..!!
That's a sweet way to say I'm a weird old bastard...
Pretty much exactly the words I had in mind
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Old 16-10-2016, 07:55   #172
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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But why do you say using the EBL (I presume that's what you meant) is only "better than nothing"? This is an extremely powerful tool. Even with poor bearing discrimination, the trend is clearly visible as the target walks down the line. This is analogue and goes perfectly with the idea of how radar can be used as an extension of your vision -- different category from the information you get from plotter and AIS (which are, as many have said here, telling you what SHOULD be out there, in theory, rather than what is directly observed).

And as you know, there are many other wonderful tools -- trails, true motion, etc -- which allow you to vividly visualize what is around your boat. .
Yes EBL.....I had a mental block when posting...

Agree it is a good tool, just not as useful as a functioning MARPA that will give you all the CPA data and trial maneuvers..

I do get spoiled with the commercial standard ARPA and gyro stabilization, but even they can dance around in heavy weather and requires the same tricks to keep from getting erroneous feedback from dancing targets.
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Old 16-10-2016, 07:58   #173
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

Honestly, it sounds like radar is an excuse for lazy sailors.

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Old 16-10-2016, 08:00   #174
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Originally Posted by Nammy View Post
So, I'm the OP. It sounds like radar makes you bitchy. I was hoping to learn a thing or two about radar but, I got a conversation of ppl that love to throw out a bunch of acronyms and pretend their info is best. Thanks to the other three ppl that have an actual answers. I guess I'll try another site.

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The rules here stipulate we should "play nice", but nowhere does it state that we must agree. If you ignore the occassional dogmatic character of some responses you can still learn a lot and form your own perspecitve.
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Old 16-10-2016, 08:04   #175
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Yes EBL.....I had a mental block when posting...

Agree it is a good tool, just not as useful as a functioning MARPA that will give you all the CPA data and trial maneuvers..

I do get spoiled with the commercial standard ARPA and gyro stabilization, but even they can dance around in heavy weather and requires the same tricks to keep from getting erroneous feedback from dancing targets.
I can see that. My way of working has adapted to these limitations. I rely on AIS for exact crossing information (using the superb OpenCPN AIS display), and I use radar for the "analogue" stuff -- for visualization and situation awareness, and double checking what AIS and plotter are saying.

This works because I guess I just never cross with anything anymore, which requires an exact CPA or TCPA, which is not broadcasting AIS. The radar shows that AIS has got the right position and that's enough for me.

If I were to encounter a ship in a crossing situation which was NOT broadcasting AIS (say, it's broken), I would just revert to old-fashioned simpler methods which don't require exact data. Probably the hand bearing compass would be the primary tool, not radar, if I had the ship in sight, because I can actually get a more precise bearing that way. If using radar, I would use the EBL and make a fairly hard turn away from where the ship will be, which you can see in an analogue way by how it's moving down the EBL. It would not be a maneuver as precisely calculated as I can now do using AIS, but it would be good enough.
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Old 16-10-2016, 08:07   #176
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Dockhead.. the DuFour 45 I delivered had radar and the young owner liked used it when he was on watch.. however when he went to get his head down I'd ask him to switch it off.. its not that I don't know how to work them.. being ex RN I gained knowledge of the basics in training before opting for Sonar Controller Anti-Submarine.. more hands on skill and exciting to chase, catch and sink something rather than just sit and look at something you could not control.
I just have an aversion to screens.. even my Nimble Nav program on my note book is a switch on occasionally for position sog and distance to go then back off again.
I get it that folk feel that (radar) is important but just not to me.. and I reckon I'm not unique in that.
This does not make us idiots.. nor unsafe navigators.. I've done Poole to Cherbourg/Alderney/Gurnsey hundreds of time.. all weathers, conditions and seasons and live to tell the tale.. follow the Rules and things work.

PS; The aversion to screens could come from 2yrs in Portland Squadron where we spent most of the time at battlestations putting various sections of the NATO fleets through their paces.. 4hrs on 4hrs off for weeks at a time.. lol
...follow the Rules and things work.

5. Look-out
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

7. Risk of collision
Vessels must use all available means to determine the risk of a collision, including the use of radar (if available) to get early warning of the risk of collision by radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects. (e.g. ARPA, AIS).

2. Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case

'Nuff said.
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Old 16-10-2016, 08:13   #177
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

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Stupidly the OP doesn't say where he is, nor his intentions. But including Fatty in his post probably means a tropical circumnavigation.

On mine there was 2 hours of fog in 30 000 nms.

You don't need a Radar.

If someone is staying in a fog bound area the choice may be different.

But with all troll posts there is little detail so they can attack your thoughts.





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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nammy View Post
Honestly, it sounds like radar is an excuse for lazy sailors.

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Or...maybe Mark got it right to start with.
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Old 16-10-2016, 08:18   #178
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pirate Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nammy View Post
So, I'm the OP. It sounds like radar makes you bitchy. I was hoping to learn a thing or two about radar but, I got a conversation of ppl that love to throw out a bunch of acronyms and pretend their info is best. Thanks to the other three ppl that have an actual answers. I guess I'll try another site.

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Hey Nammy.. don't let folk like me put you off.. I just threw in an aside to keep my 'Profile' visible.. got to earn a penny or two boy.. got to earn a penny or twooooooo..!!!
Problem maybe is the heading of your thread.. it sounds kinda like the Red Flag to a Bull for the lovers of ancient typewriters..
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Old 16-10-2016, 08:24   #179
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

Hey Nanny, I was wondering if you were still out there.

There is some good info here that addresses your post. But there is some amount of poor manners to ignore to benefit from it.

Sorta have to have a thick skin to interact here if you haven't been bathing in salt water for decades already. And accept the fact that you will never be one of the cool kids.

It's worth it as a place to learn, if you can endure. I've considered taking my leave more than once, but haven't as of yet.


And Boatman61 is not the only able seaman here that doesn't use radar.
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Old 16-10-2016, 08:31   #180
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Re: Is radar like the extinct typewriter?

LOL.

Nanny, I was typing as you posted. I guess thick skin isn't an option.

Your post is similar to the one's I only type in my head, not on the keyboard. Try it, it's not that hard and feels good.
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