Is an SSB/pactor modem worth it?

[LeaseOnLife]

We do have a M802 on board, but have never used the HF DSC capability. After reading the interesting posts above, I measured the current used by the M802 while on DSC watch: 1.68 A @13.2V !!! This is about the same as when listening/RX with not too much volume.

For our power budget the extra 40Ah per day are a lot and the M802 will be turned off after each active use. Sorry, we will not be reachable 24/7.

Dirk

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by AllanR

The Coast Guard and the HAM community could not contact a nearby yacht to direct them to that PLB signal. Presumably because no one nearby bothered to have their HF/SSB radios switched on.

The Coast Guard and HAM network could not find anyone via satphone, because they did not know who was nearby or their satphone number to call. And probably those were also turned off.
Two thoughts occur here:
1) Being very early in the season there may not have been very many folks out, let alone in their immediate vicinity. I don't know.
2) Given the weather conditions they may have been more concerned with maintaining their own security, than making sure the HF was working properly.

A modern marine HF/SSB with DSC is the practical option that people can keep turned on in their yachts 24/7 because it is not noisy.
It is only practical for those with the money to acquire it.

There does not seem to be any other workable option; unless you can afford to buy and operate a high-powered INMARSAT system as found on big ships.
I don't know about that, there's SPOT, Yellowbrick and any number of knock-offs. I understand these systems aren't feeding position info to the CG so they can get a big picture of who's in a certain area, but the vendor companies themselves have that info and could coordinate. But it would take some phone calls to do that so that's not very feasible is it? Can't ask a private company to seek help from some of its clients to help another client can we, that's the job of a public agency.

Beyond the irregular emergency situations, the same radio also provides a means for people to stay connected, to help each other with day to day information, waypoints, advice, warnings of obstructions etc. And all those calls to help each other or get advice cost nothing. And with a Pactor controller attached, it also gives low-cost access to emails, GRIB charts, METAREA forecasts, coastal forecasts, position reporting, etc.

Looking at USA websites I see the ICOM M802 (DSC) with tuner is less than US$2500. Allow a generous US$1000 for installation related expenses - backstay insulators, earth plate or KISS-SSB counterpoise, cabling etc. Bringing the total to about US$3500.
You're glossing over a lot here. That's $3500 for the radio, tuner, cabling, etc. Then on top of that there's added battery capacity, added solar panels, wiring, supports for tha panels, that's another $500-1000 plus lost storage space, and added windage. Then there's the Pactor modem you mentioned, another $2000 if you want to do anything other than call for help or chit chat with folks.

Installation is not rocket science and within the capacity of resourceful yacht owners.
It's not rocket science but it is a difficult process that takes tech savvy folks to do an acceptable job. Figure on at least $500 in consulting fees to help get it all sorted out. Now you are looking at $6-7k even with a lot of DIY.


A US$3500 radio is no more expensive than a new sail but will last years longer.
Yeah but sails move the boat and radios don't. Then again when the sails blow out in the middle of nowhere I can get somebody to come and get me.

And what price do you put on the lives of the other crews in your rally, race, delivery trip etc who could be riding on a bolt-on keel attached to an internal matrix of stiffeners which cannot be seen through the internal accommodation liner to observe delaminating stringers, a flexing hull, elongating keel bolt holes or the bilge, to know if there is a structural issue waiting to create an emergency.
By that last arguement I should check the condition of everyone's boat in the rally and help them pay for repairs if things aren't up to snuff or at least what I believe is up to snuff. And if it can't be brought up to snuff economically then I should forbid them to participate. OK, that's taking things to a logical and absurd extreme.
Somewhere there are fuzzy lines between reliance on others,mutual support and complete independence. What you seem to be advocating is close to the reliance end.

As someone who wants to buy and outfit a boat for $40k I'm not going to drop 15-20% of that on another radio so that I can MAYBE help someone.

[hellosailor]

If you expect small craft (and since that's what most recreational sailboats are, cruising or otherwise) to keep a radio watch 24x7, it had better be a flea-power radio receiver. That's nothing new though. Twenty years ago it was called an alphanumeric PAGER and typically a AA battery could power it for well over two weeks. The pagers' decoding system basically read all traffic that was being transmitted and just processed the messages with the individual unit's address, basically the same as DSC does. The only difference is that the pagers didn't transmit. (Those that did are another kettle of fish.)
It would actually be a terribly mundane programming exercise to set up a gateway between the SSB and VHF DSC systems and a satellite paging system, so that all DSC messages "intended for these units", whether that was "these" geographically or in other groups, was then forwarded to the appropriate gateway and broadcast in a way that fleapower (pager) receivers could get. Pager goes off, and instead of bee-bee-beep it can just as easily power up the ship's radio.
In fact, call "routing" over the cell phone system already is currently handled the same way. As I said, mundane old programming exercise.


So all it takes is for someone with bucks to say "OK, let's implement the gateway and throw up a standard, and piggyback the traffic onto a satellite network".


Maybe sound unthinkable and unattainable, but then again, kids these days can't conceive of a world before cell phones and 24x7 omnipresent broadband, either. Pushing "the global village" onto the seas wouldn't be hard, the internet and webcams had spread from Amundsen Base (Antarctica) to Mt. Everest by 1999.


Personally...I still hang onto the aesthetics of "I'll be at sea, you won't be able to reach me until..." and with any luck, there are no load ringing things to bother my sleep during that time!


I've delegated the 24x7 distress watch to other parties, often uniformed and paid ones. I'm a civilian.

[ka4wja]

Mike, et al,
You make an excellent point, and one that I've thought about when recommending an HF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephone....thought about your point quite a bit actually!!!

And, while I still stand by my recommendations, it is clear that some (especially those of us on a budget, and/or those sailing within easy HF SSB Voice contact of the USCG) have a different opinion...

All evidence to the contrary, I'm not going on a rant about DSC!!
So, no worries there!
But, what I'd like to do is add some more info and context that might help???


Mike (and others), I'd like to just add a few pieces of info to the mix.....it might make a difference to you, or it might not....but, here goes...


Mike, remember MF/HF-DSC is NOT new....it has been around since 1992!!
(yes, that makes it older than the GPS satellite system, which was fully operational in 1995, and the damned GPS receivers back then, cost $1000's and $1000's of dollars and were bigger than your Icom M-710!!!)
And, MF/HF-DSC became mandatory for all GMDSS signatory nations and all SOLAS vessels on Jan 1, 1999!!

How many other "electronic systems" or "communications devices" do you still use daily, that still work as they did > 20 years ago!?

Remember this "new DSC stuff" came out about the same time as the very first digital cellular phone network (early 1990's), back before SMS was even thought of!!!
And, we (the maritime communications users) HAD "SMS" that worked worldwide in the 1990's, known as "DSC" (what many cruisers still think of as "new", has been there for > 20 years, and is FREE!!)

Albeit, our "Short Messaging Service" (DSC) is limited to just 5 basic messages, it is FREE to everyone, works worldwide, requires no subscription, nor fees, etc....and for ship-to-ship contact / communications, requires NO infrastructure at all!!! (works when almost everything else, short of Morse Code, doesn't!!)


Have a look at some of these videos, where you'll learn a lot about Marine HF-DSC....
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2n3z5nlv-ga2zYuPozhUXZX

And, marine HF comms in general...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nPNdApNsZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y

And, the Icom M-802, in specific...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2npivDjoFrC-8QKVyMb4tVr


Understand that HF radio is a rather unique animal amongst "electronics" / "hi-tech" stuff in our world these days!!!

In that HF radio waves do NOT rely on any man-made systems nor "infrastructure" of any kind, they travel the same way they did 20 years ago, or 100 years ago....
BUT...

But, unlike the change from B&W TV to "color TV" (in the US) in the 1950's, which allowed all existing b&w TV sets to continue to receive signals the same way, whether the program was transmitted in color or not....AND...

And, unlike the change (starting in the late 1940's) on most HF amateur radio bands from "Full-carrier, AM double-sideband" to "SSB", where SSB receivers would still be able to receive the AM signals by "zero-beating", and the AM receivers had external BFO options/adapters (I designed and built one myself)....

Yes, unlike those truly revolutionary and generational changes, the change over to "DSC" for MF/HF maritime monitoring / watch-keeping is a HUMAN change!!

What I mean here is that, even though the DSC signal travels along the airwaves similarly (actually a LOT better!) than an SSB Voice signal, the DSC signal (100-baud SITOR/RTTY signal) is not understood/interpreted by a human ear, and must be received electronically....and the receiver can then either ring an alarm and show a message on a screen (such as when a Distress call is received), or simply "beep" and show a short message on a display that a human can read and then they can determine whether or not to respond to the "routine call"....

This change to remove the necessity for having a radioman stand watch 24/7 listening HAS improved safety and HAS saved lives!!!
But, since there is no requirement (under USCG or GMDSS, etc. rules/regs) for pleasure boats to be equipped with any HF radio at all, let alone a MF/HF-DSC Radio, the actual "change" from a "Voice SSB" radio (such as the M-710) to a "MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephone" (such as the M-802), has not 100% occurred!!!

And, even though the USCG is, and has been, a proponent of DSC signaling.....in weird dysfunctional way they have also been perpetuating the use of the older system (Voice SSB calling), by still maintaining Voice SSB radio watches on SOME HF freqs, from SOME of their stations....please don't get me wrong, I LOVE the USCG, and I do think this is a GOOD thing....but it also has given fuel to the argument that "nobody really needs HF-DSC"....

FYI, worldwide there are currently > 80 HF-DSC shore stations and > 450 MF-DSC shore stations, monitoring for DSC calls....
Not to mention the 1000's of SOLAS vessels monitoring MF/HF-DSC, as well...

And, worldwide we have ZERO (none, nada, zip, not) SOLAS ships monitoring any HF Voice freq....
And only 5 HF Voice coast stations (2-USCG, 2-Australain Maritime Authority, 1-NZ Maritime Authority), that maintain a Voice watch on SOME HF GMDSS Voice freqs....
{And, 2 HF public coast stations in the US (WLO and KLB, both run remotely by Shipcom, in Mobile, AL), that monitor some of their HF Voice freqs (NOT the GMDSS Voice freqs)..}

And, please understand that it has been this way now for a couple decades!!!
MF/HF-DSC is NOT new!!!

I'm not shouting at anyone that they will die if they don't get a MF/HF-DSC radio!!!
Just trying to point out that things HAVE changed, and they changed quite a number of years ago...if budget or other circumstances have kept many cruisers from changing their own radios, there is nothing to be done....
BUT...
But, if the reason is that they are not aware of these changes over the past 2 decades, them maybe this information will be helpful to them...
In any case, I cannot see this information having any negative impact at all....so why not just read and learn!


If you look at this from a dollars and cents point of view.....then it is a big expense...
The M-710 sells for about $500 on the market today....and the M-802 for about $1800....
That's a $1300 difference, and that IS a significant amount of money!!

But, a couple iPads....or an iPad and a couple iPhone6's....are about this amount....

Or even JUST a new laptop, new tablet, and a new phone, etc.....and these are also about this amount...

Or, how about a Class B AIS transponder and display, AIS antenna/cable or "antenna splitter"....and these are about that amount...

Or, how about ext Wi-Fi systems, ext 3G/4G systems, boat wif-fi router, etc....
Or, how about an electronics upgrade???
Or, what about new canvas, cockpit cushions, batteries, etc. etc. etc....the list goes on and on....

The point?

The point is priorities!!
What are your priorities???
(everyone is different, and I for one, do NOT wish to push any agenda on anyone....but, if many are uninformed on the changes that have occurred over the past 20 years, then how do they make decisions on what their priorities are???)

And, here is what it all comes down to:

If you are not aware of how to signal other vessels (via MF/HF-DSC), nor with the exception of some USCG stations on some freqs and AUS and NZ maritime authorities, how to signal shore stations (via MF/HF-DSC), then how do you know that you're M-710 is not capable of doing that???

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Allan,
You and John make very compelling arguments for a SSB with DSC capabilities and I am sold.

However, as I type this, looking at my trusty old IC-M710 sitting at the nav station, I have a hard time justifying $1,800 to upgrade a working piece of equipment.
This I understand....perhaps the additional info here in this post will help??


On another thread I asked if anyone had any knowledge of DSC actually being used by a yacht in an emergency and got no replies.
Sorry, I never saw this....and even though I do not have the GMDSS statistics, I can assure that the answer is: Yes....MF/HF-DSC has been used by many vessels worldwide, in emergencies, and has proved to be very effective!!
(I'm not sure why this is surprising to so many people, but it is true!)



{Mike, remember MF/HF-DSC is NOT new....it has been around since 1992!!
(yes, that makes it older than the GPS satellite system, which was fully operational in 1995, and the damned GPS receivers cost $1000's and $1000's of dollars and were bigger than your Icom M-710!!!)
And, MF/HF-DSC became mandatory for all GMDSS signatory nations and all SOLAS vessels on Jan 1, 1999!!

Understand that HF radio is a rather unique animal amongst "electronics" / "hi-tech" stuff in our world these days!!!
In that HF radio waves do NOT rely on any man-made systems nor "infrastructure" of any kind, they travel the same way they did 20 years ago, or 100 years ago....
BUT...
But, unlike the change from B&W TV to "color TV" (in the US) in the 1950's, which allowed all existing b&w TV sets to continue to receive signals the same way, whether the program was transmitted in color or not....AND...

And, unlike the change (starting in the late 1940's) on most HF amateur radio bands from "Full-carrier, AM double-sideband" to "SSB", where SSB receivers would still be able to receive the AM signals by "zero-beating", and the AM receivers had external BFO options/adapters (I designed and built one myself)....

Yes, unlike those truly revolutionary and generational changes, the change over to "DSC" for MF/HF maritime monitoring / watch-keeping is a HUMAN change!!
What I mean here is that, even though the DSC signal travels along the airwaves similarly (actually better!) than an SSB Voice signal, the DSC signal (100-baud SITOR/RTTY signal) is not understood/interpreted by a human ear, and must be received electronically....and the receiver can then either ring an alarm and show a message on a screen (such as when a Distress call is received), or simply "beep" and show a short message on a display that a human can read and then they can determine whether or not to respond to the "routine call"....

This change to remove the necessity for having a radioman stand watch 24/7 listening HAS improved safety and HAS saved lives!!!
But, since there is no requirement (under USCG or GMDSS, etc. rules/regs) for pleasure boats to be equipped with any HF radio at all, let alone a MF/HF-DSC Radio, the actual "change" from a "Voice SSB" radio (such as the M-710) to a "MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephone" (such as the M-802), has not 100% occurred!!!
And, even though the USCG is, and has been, a proponent of DSC signaling.....in weird dysfunctional way they have also been perpetuating the use of the older system (Voice SSB calling), by still maintaining Voice SSB radio watches on SOME HF freqs, from SOME of their stations....please don't get me wrong, I LOVE the USCG, and I do think this is a GOOD thing....but it also has given fuel to the argument that "nobody really needs HF-DSC"....}


All of which is to say, for those of us with older, working SSB setups it is difficult to justify the expense of replacing them with a new 802 for it's DSC capabilities alone.
Mike, I understand this.....and I'm not shouting at anyone that they will die if they don't get a MF/HF-DSC radio!!!

If you look at this from a dollars and cents point of view.....then it is a big expense...
The M-710 sells for about $500 on the market today....and the M-802 for about $1800....
That's a $1300 difference, and that IS a significant amount of money!!

But, a couple iPads....or an iPad and a couple iPhone6's....are about this amount....

Or even JUST a new laptop, new tablet, and a new phone, etc.....and these are also about this amount...

Or, how about a Class B AIS transponder and display, AIS antenna/cable or "antenna splitter"....and these are about that amount...

Or, how about ext Wi-Fi systems, ext 3G/4G systems, boat wif-fi router, etc....
Or, how about an electronics upgrade???
Or, what about new canvas, cockpit cushions, batteries, etc. etc. etc....the list goes on and on....

The point?

The point is priorities!!
What are your priorities???
(everyone is different, and I for one, do NOT wish to push any agenda on anyone....but, if many are uninformed on the changes that have occurred over the past 20 years, then how do they make decisions on what their priorities are???)

And, here is what it all comes down to:
If you are not aware of how to signal other vessels (via MF/HF-DSC), nor with the exception of some USCG stations on some freqs and AUS and NZ maritime authorities, how to signal shore stations (via MF/HF-DSC), then how do you know that you're M-710 is not capable of doing that???

I do help this helps!!!





The power consumption is a problem....at about 2 amps / hour, the M-802 in receive (squelched, etc.) will pull almost 50 A/H's per day!!!
And, that's a big chunk of power for most modest-sized cruising boats!!

Originally Posted by Harryws

A wonderfully balance and informed piece. Well done.
Your observation of having a 24/7 SSB on all the time is just not practical on a small to medium size yacht. It just used too much power....
I have seen many yacht over the last 10 years cruising around the world set off without a SSB the have to install one in some out of the way place as they see the benefits of safety and community

Getting most cruisers to install and use MF/HF-DSC-SSB radios (such as the M-802), is hard enough....
Getting them to leave their radio on 24/7? That's a nice idea....but it's a tall order!!


I wanted to write more, but gotta' go..

Fair winds to all...

John

[ka4wja]

The original topic of this thread "SSB with a PACTOR modem, is it worth it?", was quickly answered a couple months ago....
SSB, yes...PACTOR, maybe, but usually not necessary...

Please see this specific posting for all of that:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1794230


As this discussion continued, we've been trying to provide some info about HF-DSC and its robustness, as well as its ease of operation and reliability....but we've also had non-technical sailors, and even some technical types, write about misconceptions, myths, and complete falsehoods regarding HF-DSC signaling...

Please understand that this is NOT a rant about HF-DSC....just trying to post some facts and dispel some myths...
What you all do with the facts, now that you learn about the false myths, etc....well, that's up to each sailor/cruiser to decide for themselves.....but, if you don't have accurate, factual info, then you cannot make good decisions...


These words from "Canibul" and "socaldmax", are examples of these completely false understandings!!!

--- Fact is, Yes....Yes, anyone that can press a red distress button, CAN effectively use a MF-MF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephone to signal for help, signal more than 80 HF-DSC Coast Stations, and more than 450 MF-DSC Coast Stations, and 1000's of SOLAS vessels plying the oceans worldwide.....(as opposed to a couple shore stations maintaining a SSB Voice watch, and ZERO other vessels...or trying to remember when/what freqs the "cruising net" was on...)

Originally Posted by Canibul

If your new crew member wakes up and sees you lying unconscious and unresponsive, can they grab that SSB microphone and do anything at all useful with it to save your life?

Great time to find and read a manual for a few hours, and frankly, I read the Icom 701 manual several times and still couldn't get satisfactory results from the SSB when it was working. It's old technology. Like wooden boats, it still works...but not the only nor the best game in town any more.

With a MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephone (such as the M-802), it is as easy as pressing one button....easier than dialing 911 on a cellphone....
And, this system has been around since the 1990's!!
And, HF-DSC is substantially more "robust" and "reliable" than Voice SSB!!!
Have a look here for details:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1794460

And here:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1795190


And, have a look here for EASY to understand videos, that explain how this works, and why!!
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX







--- socaldmax, you CANNOT buy any new "non-DSC" marine radios any more, and they haven't been legal to sell (new) in more than a decade!!! So, the point about a HF-DSC radio being "too expensive" is a fairly moot point...
But, even if this wasn't the case, the cost of an M-802 system is WAY over-stated!!!
Please read the details about costs, in my earlier posting...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1848701

The radio costs about $1800....and the "whole system" including tuner, etc. all cables, installation materials, etc. sell for about $2650!!! All-in....
NOT $5000...
Icom SSB Radio Kits & Components

Originally Posted by socaldmax

I'm not discouraging anyone from buying an HF/DSC marine radio, I'll probably buy one if it's not already installed on the boat I buy, I'm just pointing out a few things that got glossed over - like the expense. For some people, $5K sounds like 6 months of cruising budget, or even 10 months of cruising budget for those $500/mo. sailors. That's a lot of money for something that's not guaranteed to reach anyone close by. Sure, you might reach someone, but from my own experience, it may not be someone on the closest island or continent.


It's a great tool to have, in addition to other communications devices, just wish it wasn't so darn expensive.

But, what concerns me, is your comment, "something that's not guaranteed to reach anyone close by....you might reach someone, but from my own experience, it may not be someone on the closest island or continent.".....

The MF/HF-DSC system is designed as part of the GMDSS....and as such is designed (and DOES) provide quick and easy contact with BOTH:
a) DSC Coast Stations / RCC's and
b) other vessels either nearby, or in the region, that can provide assistance
This IS the primary goal of the GMDSS...and it DOES work!!!
Not sure why you do not believe this, or what experiences you've had that has shown this to not be the case?

Curious what MF/HF-DSC experience has shown you that you just "might reach someone"???
'Cause, it is substantially more robust/reliable than a Voice SSB contact, and with > 80 HF-DSC Coast Stations and > 450 MF-DSC Coast Stations, and 1000's of SOLAS vessels also maintaining a MF/HF-DSC radiowatch....it boggles my mind how you've not found MF/HF-DSC to be anything but downright easy, reliable, and robust??

My personal experience with HF-DSC (routine calling, as well as "Safety" DSC messages) have proven to be 100% reliable and always able to raise the station called...

I understand the itch to repost the myth of "this stuff costs $5k", etc....which of course it does NOT...
But, please tell us where you've found HF-DSC to be unreliable...





Please understand that I'm NOT attempting to wade into any arguments, and I fully accept that we all have differing opinions, etc....but, I'm just trying to sort out some all-to-often posted myths, and provide real hard facts regarding HF-DSC, and explain how things have been working effectively for 20 some years now...


I do hope this helps...

Fair winds to all...

John

[socaldmax]

John, my $5K figure was buying an M802, antenna tuner, antenna, counterpoise, wiring to the battery, Pactor 4 modem and for most people, professional installation.

That's a round number, but I bet for most it's not far off. Your numbers are way off, according to the web link you provided. By the time you buy the M802 ($1850) plus shipping, plus tax, plus all of the other bits and pieces, I came up with $2927, and that did NOT include the coax to the AT140, the cable to the antenna, or the backstay antenna itself. It did include the DSC antenna and GPS cable. The total with antenna and cable is probably just over $3100.

Remember, this thread is about HF SSB with PACTOR MODEM, not about your usual DSC rant. So you don't get to leave out the cost of the Pactor modem, because that's what this thread is all about.

I was unclear, I never meant to say DSC doesn't work. I posted HF/DSC but was referring to HF SSB communications, not DSC - may not contact the closest land. As I've explained before, our sub was west of HI, we suffered a casualty, tried to raise COMSUBPAC in Pearl Harbor and was unable to raise them, even though they monitor 24/7. We ended up in communication with the Sub base in San Diego, 2500 mi east of Hawaii.

That may not be typical, but that was our experience in an emergency, unencrypted HF SSB setting. Our normal method of communication was via encrypted SATCOM called SSIXS, and I guarantee you that works, as long as you have the capability to load your crypto.

Sure I agree with you, DSC will probably always get hold of someone. But it may not be someone close by. It's obvious fro mthe replies in this thread that a lot of people aren't keeping their HF radios on for the sake of power usage, so that's not a good sign. My mistake for not clearly explaining that it was HF SSB that I was referring to.

Yes, you can buy an M802 and tuner and antenna for less than $3,000. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about HF marine transceiver and Pactor modem, is THAT worth the cost.

The answer to that question is a matter of budget and personal choice. So many people post that they don't have a fridge or the battery power and charging power to support a fridge. This makes me pretty confident that their budget and 12v power system probably doesn't support the purchase of an HF/DSC rig and Pactor modem, regardless of whether you or I may think it's invaluable.

[socaldmax]

According to Dock Side Radio,

Note: The M802 is FCC approved for sale in the US. The M802 is not CE approved, therefore, it should not be fitted to European-flagged vessels, and may not be shipped to Australia, Europe, New Zealand, etc.

Is there another HF/DSC radio that all of those people can use?

[socaldmax]

Let me be perfectly clear.

I wish everyone had an M802 and Pactor 4 modem.

I wish every sailboat kept it on 24/7.

I wish everyone was willing to divert course to render aid.

But that's just not the case. When it boils right down to it, there may be very few sailing vessels nearby with a radio, turned on, willing to come to your aid, regardless of what we hope or expect. If I had an HF/DSC radio, I'd certainly keep it on and I most certainly would try to render whatever aid I could.

I sell VHF "race" radios, specifically for sandrails and offroad race cars, so all of the cars racing or playing together can keep in contact and radio for help back to camp if the need arises.

These radios are only $300 with a tuned antenna, with a range up to 85 mi. You would be AMAZED at the number of guys who spent $4,000 on a paint job, $300 for heated seats, but won't drop another $300 on a $65,000 sandrail for a safety item as important as a radio.

It's not $5,000 these guys won't spend, it's a measly $300. They spend that much in beer in one weekend. So I know how much your head hurts from banging it against people who act like a brick wall.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

According to Dock Side Radio,

Is there another HF/DSC radio that all of those people can use?

I ran into this when I bought my at-140.... there are different versions for different markets.

The CE version of the 802 is the 801 or the 801E or something...
Icom M801E and M802 Marine SSB transceivers - SailCom Marine

http://www.icom-australia.com/produc...n%20Manual.pdf

I get brain ache when dealing with stuff like this.... the differences are minor but are important to the people whose mortgage payments rely on making the rules... by memory the E version of the at140 is always hot to go on 2182 or somesuch.

If I was outfitting from new I would buy an 802 but I have what I have and as mentioned the thread is about pactor......

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I ran into this when I bought my at-140.... there are different versions for different markets.

The CE version of the 802 is the 801 or the 801E or something...
Icom M801E and M802 Marine SSB transceivers - SailCom Marine

http://www.icom-australia.com/produc...n%20Manual.pdf

I get brain ache when dealing with stuff like this.... the differences are minor but are important to the people whose mortgage payments rely on making the rules... by memory the E version of the at140 is always hot to go on 2182 or somesuch.

If I was outfitting from new I would buy an 802 but I have what I have and as mentioned the thread is about pactor......

Ahh, good to know! DSR might get a few more sales if they specified which radio for which market and stocked them. Perhaps there are some other regulations prohibiting them from selling overseas, who knows.

[El Pinguino]

To paraphrase Nero or some other ancient 'all roads lead to CF'...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...2-a-86337.html

and #2 here ... quite a difference between the two models http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ea-118248.html

I think it was Steady Hand who suggested using the CF search function...

[FatChance]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I ran into this when I bought my at-140.... there are different versions for different markets.

The CE version of the 802 is the 801 or the 801E or something...
Icom M801E and M802 Marine SSB transceivers - SailCom Marine

http://www.icom-australia.com/produc...n%20Manual.pdf

I get brain ache when dealing with stuff like this.... the differences are minor but are important to the people whose mortgage payments rely on making the rules... by memory the E version of the at140 is always hot to go on 2182 or somesuch.

If I was outfitting from new I would buy an 802 but I have what I have and as mentioned the thread is about pactor......

But the M801E is discontinued, and I can't find it for sale anywhere, including the link you provided (they only sell accessories that work with the 801E, and the 802 itself). So where are you going to find an M801E?

[SimonV]

Originally Posted by FatChance

But the M801E is discontinued, and I can't find it for sale anywhere, including the link you provided (they only sell accessories that work with the 801E, and the 802 itself). So where are you going to find an M801E?

Ebay in Australia. A dealer has more than 10 available.

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[FatChance]

Originally Posted by SimonV

Ebay in Australia. A dealer has more than 10 available.

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Thanks for that, but sort of a rubbish option in all honesty. $2700 USD for radio only when it comes time and have to deal with having it shipped from Australia along with paying an additional 25% in VAT. Nothing else that's more reasonable and actually in the EU? You'd figure since it was for the European market you might find them here, but I haven't had much luck. Even the UK sellers and installers just seem to provide the M802. What a shame that ICOM discontinued the M801E model.

[SimonV]

Originally Posted by FatChance

Thanks for that, but sort of a rubbish option in all honesty. $2700 USD for radio only when it comes time and have to deal with having it shipped from Australia along with paying an additional 25% in VAT. Nothing else that's more reasonable and actually in the EU? You'd figure since it was for the European market you might find them here, but I haven't had much luck. Even the UK sellers and installers just seem to provide the M802. What a shame that ICOM discontinued the M801E model.

That's why you use the 802. Type approval does not count for non Comercial vessels.

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