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Old 28-02-2016, 08:45   #61
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

[QUOTE=Rustic Charm;2058059]
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Originally Posted by jibstay View Post

Thats the older models. Maybe the newer models you have to purchase the app to control it via wifi? I thought the older models you could only view, not control?

From what im reading the e7's provided wifi for remote viewing, not full control?
I think Ray View, Ray Control, and Ray Remote, are compatible with all WIFI enabled models.

I really like the E7D, combining the atom display with sonar in one unit. A 7" screen is perfect for a sailboat helm. Having the sonar function is so vastly superior to just a depth reading, for knowing the bottom for anchoring.

The new Es series is great, but unfortunately there is only non-sonar and down-vision versions. (Down vision transducers do no mount well on most sailboats.)

PS, an external GPS antenna isn't required on most boats (except when blocked from satellite view by metal).

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Old 28-02-2016, 08:56   #62
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
For those of us with tiller steering, much of this discussion is moot. Ipad and Iphone work great in the cockpit (with noted limitations).
Lots of tiller steered boats are equipped with permanent chartplotters.

Tillers just eliminate helm binnacle mounting options.

Companionway bulkhead, hatchboard, Ram arm, forward footwell, etc. options are still valid for tiller steered boats.

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Old 28-02-2016, 09:28   #63
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

Back to the original intent of this thread, which I believe was to be focused on iPad mounts and cases rather than fixed "old school" chartplotter promotion and sales...

Here's the iPad helm mount that we've been using by RAM. It's spring loaded which enables us to mount an iPad Air enclosed in a Lifeproof case or the original iPad. Removal is also very easy. RAM offers a clamp for attaching to stainless bar (bar clamp) which is not pictured.
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Old 28-02-2016, 09:44   #64
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
Back to the original intent of this thread, which I believe was to be focused on iPad mounts and cases rather than fixed "old school" chartplotter promotion and sales...

Here's the iPad helm mount that we've been using by RAM. It's spring loaded which enables us to mount an iPad Air enclosed in a Lifeproof case or the original iPad. Removal is also very easy. RAM offers a clamp for attaching to stainless bar (bar clamp) which is not pictured.

MMMMMM, nice bait! ;-)

Hmmmm, what could possibly go wrong?

Spring, thump, thump, splash, blub, blub, blub. ;-)

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Old 28-02-2016, 10:15   #65
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

Here's the best picture I have of how the RAM spring clamp mount is attached to the pedestal in front of our helm. The RAM mount is very high quality, much like the other clamp shown in an earlier post #39, but it allows some variation in the size of the iPad and will accommodate a waterproof case. The clamp provides a very secure attachment and requires a significant two handed effort to remove the iPad.

If the ROKK mount had existed or if I'd know about it a year ago, I probably would have given it serious consideration, but in our case at the time, I needed the mount to be able to accommodate two different sized iPads in two different cases.

'Just another lazy day anchored somewhere in paradise.
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Old 28-02-2016, 17:53   #66
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Lots of tiller steered boats are equipped with permanent chartplotters.

Tillers just eliminate helm binnacle mounting options.

Companionway bulkhead, hatchboard, Ram arm, forward footwell, etc. options are still valid for tiller steered boats.

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I'd suggest you try using one mounted in any of those places and see if it is worth the additional cost. For me, those costs far outweigh the benefits. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.(wouldn't be the first time,...just ask my kids...)

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Old 29-02-2016, 08:03   #67
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
I'd suggest you try using one mounted in any of those places and see if it is worth the additional cost. For me, those costs far outweigh the benefits. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.(wouldn't be the first time,...just ask my kids...)

Cheers,
OL1
A tiller does not preclude chartplotter use.

I have consulted, installed, and used chartplotters in all of those places on tiller steered boats, many times.

Lots of folks with wheels prefer mounting chartplotters on a bracket under the dodger, rather than on the binnacle. Not my preference, but to each there own.

I don't understand this concept of additional cost. Chartplotters start at about $400. Yes, you can get much more expensive models, but you don't have to if your budget won't permit, and you don't want/need the features. Most cell phones are way over that. (One may get if for free today, but pay $600 or more over time.) I have dropped a cell phone in the water. Retrieved it, dried it out for a week. Euchered. Now that did cost.

IMHO, a chartplotter is a safety device that one should not compromise. Has nothing to do with my business position. I felt this way long before starting my business. Again, if daysailing in familiar waters, no biggy. But if sailing somewhere where one needs a chart, due to lack of intimate familiarity, a chartplotter is worth its weight in gold. (As always a paper chart for back-up, and as many mobile devices running nav software as one wants.)

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Old 29-02-2016, 08:16   #68
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldlaxer1 View Post
I'd suggest you try using one mounted in any of those places and see if it is worth the additional cost. For me, those costs far outweigh the benefits. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.(wouldn't be the first time,...just ask my kids...)

Cheers,
OL1
A tiller does not preclude chartplotter use.

I have consulted, installed, and used chartplotters in all of those places on tiller steered boats, many times.

Lots of folks with wheels prefer mounting chartplotters on a bracket under the dodger, rather than on the binnacle. Not my preference, but to each there own.

I don't understand this concept of additional cost. Chartplotters start at about $400. Yes, you can get much more expensive models, but you don't have to if your budget won't permit, and you don't want/need the features. Most cell phones are way over that. (One may get if for free today, but pay $600 or more over time.) I have dropped a cell phone in the water. Retrieved it, dried it out for a week. Euchered. Now that did cost.

IMHO, a chartplotter is a safety device that one should not compromise. Has nothing to do with my business position. I felt this way long before starting my business. Again, if daysailing in familiar waters, no biggy. But if sailing somewhere where one needs a chart, due to lack of intimate familiarity, a chartplotter is worth its weight in gold. (As always a paper chart for back-up, and as many mobile devices running nav software as one wants.)

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Old 29-02-2016, 08:29   #69
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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Again, if I've told you once, I've told you a MILLION times, stop exaggerating.

;-)

As a result of this thread, I did a quick search on electronic charts in Europe and the Med.

Being previously familiar only with the relatively low cost of proper electronic chart solutions for North America, I empathise with sailors in other parts of the world who are sailing on a budget and are burdened with a higher cost of electronic charts.

This however, does not eliminate the burden on those skippers to properly outfit there vessels with appropriate safety and navigation gear.

Last I checked, nobody is making anybody sail a recreational vessel.

Hmmmm, let me process this for a second.

Sails an Oyster 53, but claims financial hardship when it comes to purchasing electronic charts for a chartplotter.

Wait a minute. That's it!

Yup, now I have truly heard it all. ;-)

Must get back to work, helping skippers make their boats safe, installing chartplotters on boats ranging from 45 year old 26 footers.

If you continue your current practices, and you loose your boat or a loved one, you will have my sympathy, even if, it would have been totally avoided had the use of a proper chartplotter saved the day.

That is the kind of stand-up guy I am.

The question is, under these circumstances, "Would you be able to live with yourself?

If your answer is "yes", then there is no point in my proceeding any further with this thread.

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I stand corrected. European charts aren't as expensive as I originally thought. Navionics + charts for MFDs are 199 euros each. They cover a pretty wide area. I'm not sure if charts are pre-loaded in MFDs and chartplotters in Europe. Perhaps someone else can advise.

Also, chartplotter charts include additional features not included in mobile device charts.
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Old 29-02-2016, 08:59   #70
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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I stand corrected. European charts aren't as expensive as I originally thought. Navionics + charts for MFDs are 199 euros each. They cover a pretty wide area. I'm not sure if charts are pre-loaded in MFDs and chartplotters in Europe. Perhaps someone else can advise.

Also, chartplotter charts include additional features not included in mobile device charts.
They are the same charts. Quit trying to mislead and get back to the original topic. Cases and mounts for tablets.
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Old 29-02-2016, 13:10   #71
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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They are the same charts. Quit trying to mislead and get back to the original topic. Cases and mounts for tablets.
Charts derived from the same source can have added features not found in other versions.

With a proper chartplotter, it is even possible to store your depth readings against your chart for future use, and to contribute depth readings to enhance chart depths of the supplier, in the future. (Crowd sourced depth readings.)

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Old 29-02-2016, 23:29   #72
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

With a little more digging...

One can purchase a chartplotter, that comes with a Navionics Silver chart, 93S base map, that covers the entire the European and UK coastlines and Mediterranean, from the top of the Norwegian Sea down to the Red Sea.

Based on a few chartplotter models I checked, charts are supplied either free or at a 65 Euro adder.

At marinesuperstore.com, Portsmouth UK, (no affiliation) a basic chartplotter/sonar (Dragonfly) with (CMAP Essentials European Bundle) charts costs 350 Euros.

More sophisticated networking and WIFI enabled MFDs loaded with EU charts start at 830 Euros.

There are all kinds of models having various screen sizes and features beyond this.

Hope this helps clear this up a bit.

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Old 01-03-2016, 02:49   #73
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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I don't understand this concept of additional cost. Chartplotters start at about $400. Yes, you can get much more expensive models, but you don't have to if your budget won't permit, and you don't want/need the features.
One key contributor to the cost problem is the fact that today, at least in our boat, a typical crew member already has a smartphone and a tablet or a laptop. Some have all of these. They are typically equipped with anything from a simple GPS+map application to multiple free and paid navigation/chart applications. The extra cost of personal gadget navigation can thus be something from zero to the cost of few apps/charts.

Since redundancy is a good thing, those devices will be equipped with charts in any case. Next there is the question whether to have a specialized plotter in addition to paper charts and various electronic stuff. Specialized plotters might be more luminous (required in a fixed mount), more waterproof, and maybe integrated nicely in the binnacle. I would like to have one whose screen is at least as big as the tablet screen to make it as useful as the tablets are. That would add some numbers to the price tag. Same with a new integrated binnacle.

We are thus talking about four numbers of additional cost when compared to the application based solution that we already quite automatically have. Would it be worth it? If our boat was a fast powerboat, it would make sense to have some device permanently mounted in front of me when I'm turning the wheel. But so far our sailing speed and safety has probably not suffered much from having only paper charts and portable gadgets at the cockpit (and the old slow plotter and some additional electronic gadgets and paper charts downstairs).
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Old 01-03-2016, 08:20   #74
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

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One key contributor to the cost problem is the fact that today, at least in our boat, a typical crew member already has a smartphone and a tablet or a laptop. Some have all of these. They are typically equipped with anything from a simple GPS+map application to multiple free and paid navigation/chart applications. The extra cost of personal gadget navigation can thus be something from zero to the cost of few apps/charts.

Since redundancy is a good thing, those devices will be equipped with charts in any case. Next there is the question whether to have a specialized plotter in addition to paper charts and various electronic stuff. Specialized plotters might be more luminous (required in a fixed mount), more waterproof, and maybe integrated nicely in the binnacle. I would like to have one whose screen is at least as big as the tablet screen to make it as useful as the tablets are. That would add some numbers to the price tag. Same with a new integrated binnacle.

We are thus talking about four numbers of additional cost when compared to the application based solution that we already quite automatically have. Would it be worth it? If our boat was a fast powerboat, it would make sense to have some device permanently mounted in front of me when I'm turning the wheel. But so far our sailing speed and safety has probably not suffered much from having only paper charts and portable gadgets at the cockpit (and the old slow plotter and some additional electronic gadgets and paper charts downstairs).
A claim made by another poster, was that "charts" for chartplotters "cost a fortune" compared to charts for iPad. I knew this not be so in North America, so researched and found this not to so in Europe and the Mediterranean either.

I absolutely concur that one may already have a smart phone (for mobile communication) or a tablet (for mobile computing), so the cost of adding waterproofing, navigation software, and charts for these devices is incremental. I absolutely condone doing so. No question about. Any additional source of information or measure of redundancy can be a good thing.

My personal experience, and experience with customers attempting to use non-waterproof, mobile devices in the cockpit, is terrible. Rough weather, flying equipment, broken displays, or water damage. I can't count the number of handheld VHFs that I know of, that went overboard, and were lost forever. Fortunately, the station VHF remained in the cabin. (The reason I also recommend wired mics over wireless VHF microphones.)

IMHO, anything in the cockpit, should be solid enough that one can fall on it, or rely on it as a handhold; anything less is unsafe. The first question I often get after suggesting binnacle mounted electronics is, "We will still be able to grab hold of the arch, right?" If there was something relatively weak mounted onto it, like a mobile device, and any of the mounts I've seen to date, the answer would have to be, "No". I've never had to say, "No" yet. In my opinion, the arch of the binnacle is an important safety handhold, and shouldn't be cluttered with flimsy stuff one may grab when reaching for it. When I mount an electronics pod on an arch, we either replace the arch, or extend it's height, so the handhold remains easily graspable.

I absolutely concur that everyone should carry paper charts. Having (I don't care how many) chartplotters nor mobile devices do not preclude this. Before chartplotters and GPS, I carried paper charts in the cockpit in a waterproof holder. Ineviteably, they got wet. Since the advent of chartplotters, we still carry paper charts in waterproof containers, down below. The advent of chart plotters did not make paper charts obsolete.

When I give advice to others, especially on a public forum (where I don't know them or their skills from a hole in the ground), I tend to focus on safety. Compromising safety is never a personal choice one should take lightly. For solo sailors without family, there is the safety of the SAR team that may be dispatched to save their hind-end. As soon as one adds crew, or has loved ones at home, the responsibility to others, to operate the vessel safely increases further yet.

In my opinion, a proper chartplotter is an important piece of navigation equipment to help assure safety, that is not made obsolete by the availability of mobile devices aboard, for the foreseeable future.

It is true that a relatively inexpensive plotter screen is smaller than the full-size iPad. A small plotter, (I typically recommend 7", for binnacle mounting), is easy to read and use, and doesn't obstruct the helm's view nor clutter up the binnacle too much. Again in my opinion, larger screens in the cockpit are more of a distraction and nuisance, than a benefit, unless when swivel mounting between helms, or on the bridge of a power vessel or motor sailor.

When I approach a vessel, I want the helm to be watching where they are (or need to be) going, instead of watching music videos, or surfing the web.

I guess to sum up, I would suggest that nav software on a mobile phone, makes nav software on a tablet redundant and vice versa, but neither of these devices makes a proper chartplotter redundant. The chartplotter should be the primary navigation instrument, followed by an number of redundant mobile devices, charts, guide books, websites, etc.

To each their own, and everyone is free to do as they please, but I really take exception to claims, (advising others) that chartplotters are made obsolete by mobile devices. In my opinion, it simply isn't so, and I feel strongly enough about the subject to persist in threads like these.

I understand that I am not likely to change the minds of those defending alternate practices, any more than they are likely to change mine. The purpose for this post, is to assist those who are in the process of making a decision, with the benefit of an alternate point of view, (which is a good thing and the key value of a forum like this).

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Old 01-03-2016, 09:26   #75
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Re: iPad Case and Mount Options

The Lifeproof nuud case is waterproof down to 2 meters for up to one hour. I use mine to sometimes take shallow underwater photographs, which look great on the nearly 10 inch high resolution display. Not bad... considering the cost was only $79 for charts and the Nobeltec app was free. I'm also using my iPad Air which is presently three thousand miles away from my boat to post on this forum.

Try that sometime with a 4 inch basic, 350€ binnacle-mounted Chartplotter.
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