If you could do it all over again...

[seapop]

Ok, to set the stage properly, I am (retired, semi-old) on the verge of purchasing a used 38 to 44 foot cruiser for coast hopping, Sea of Cortez cruising, and who knows, maybe a puddle jump. I have crewed briefly, studied boats immensely, and have a mechanical and electronic background.

When it comes to on-board electronics, there seems to be a lot of debate on what is needed and what is not, which brands are best, and then most of all, how the technology is shifting quickly under our feet.

It sounds like a lot more can be done nowadays with laptops and smart phones. This is good for several reasons:
-- cheaper and replaceable hardware if damaged, (and keeping spares)
-- constantly improving readily available apps. (and cheap)
-- versatility and compatibility
-- multi functionality

When I get my boat it may or may not contain a full set of electronics already, but what if I need to start replacing some of them, or start from scratch in some cases?
What would really be helpful for me would be some opinions from you more seasoned cruisers on several topics:

If you started from ground zero, what would your electronics look like and why?
-- VHF radio ? (necessary, but what brand or features?)
-- SSB radio ? (necessary any more?)
-- satellite phones ? brands, features?
-- email and internet connection methods ?
-- EPIRB, smaller and better brands or devices ?
-- AIS transceivers
-- chart/plotter -- dedicated unit or laptop controlled? assumed built in GPS
-- radar -- brands
-- forward sonar -- desirable or necessary?
-- depth sounding -- brands and compatibility? combined with fish finder??
-- auto pilot -- brands and compatibility? (need or desire to also have a wind vane) (or spare tiller?)
-- wind speed -- brands and compatibility?
-- solar panels -- new models, more efficient, along with controllers and converters

I read so much about some of the elaborate and expensive brand-electronics devices that are incompatible with other brands, and that break frequently and have no support due to model phase-outs.
Wouldn't it be great if a bunch of smaller dedicated components all fed into one control point like a laptop. They could all be cheaper plug and play units with a constantly changing and supported computer base.

Thanks for listening..

[JPA Cate]

A resource that is open to you is the Seven Seas Cruising Association. One of their services is an equipment survey, if you join, you would have access to that.

If you started from ground zero, what would your electronics look like and why?
-- VHF radio ? (necessary, but what brand or features?)

-- SSB radio ? (necessary any more?) Consider it a backup. If you become a ham, it is a way to meet new friends in foreign destinations, before you get there. Jim uses his radio almost every day, and when out of internet range, for receiving weather information and for communication

-- satellite phones ? brands, features? no comment, don't have one

-- email and internet connection methods ?away from internet,
we use ham radio; ashore, we have wifi through our phone

-- EPIRB, smaller and better brands or devices ?

-- AIS transceivers Satisfied with Vesper Marine AIS

-- chart/plotter -- dedicated unit or laptop controlled? assumed built in GPS works on both laptops, Open CPN, with C-maps charts; still carry paper

-- radar -- brands nice to have

-- forward sonar -- desirable or necessary?Ours is a Probe, no longer made: once you're used to using it, it can be very helpful, especially in murky water.

-- depth sounding -- brands and compatibility? Imo, this is essential combined with fish finder??

-- auto pilot -- brands and compatibility? (need or desire to also have a wind vane)If you prefer monos, a wind vane can give you countless "free" (as in no energy demand, and silent) miles, hard to get good wind flow to one on a cat, but you will still want a backup electronic autopilot for those no wind times. (or spare tiller?) How else you going to steer her if the cables break? or if tiller steered to begin with,
if the tiller itself breaks?

-- wind speed -- brands and compatibility? nice to have

-- solar panels -- new models, more efficient, along with controllers and converters Silent energy that also can provide shade is a good deal.

There are many out there who love their chart plotters, but we prefer, if necessary, to bring the computer into the cockpit if necessary, and keep all the instrumentation separate. To me, they generate too much light at night in the cockpit, and I want it DARK out there, to preserve night vision on watch, and that way, if one unit fails, the others work. If we had to replace them, we would do the research at the time, because things change so fast. Oh, and Jim would do it, he has by far the better understanding.

On getting a signal to the wind vane, if you build a cockpit enclosure, it will make your windvane next to useless because of impairing the wind flow to the fly of the vane. It needs pretty free airflow to work well.


Ann

[SailsWithFists]

-- VHF radio ? (necessary, but what brand or features?) Whatever is cheapest
-- SSB radio ? (necessary any more?) Would not have one
-- satellite phones ? brands, features? Would not have one
-- email and internet connection methods ? WiFi or local 3G/4G sim in smart phone/ipad
-- EPIRB, smaller and better brands or devices ? ACR PLBs
-- AIS transceivers Watchmate XB-8000 - Allows my devices to talk as well.
-- chart/plotter -- dedicated unit or laptop controlled? assumed built in GPS Laptop or iPad
-- radar -- brands Nice to have, no preference
-- forward sonar -- desirable or necessary? Nope
-- depth sounding -- brands and compatibility? combined with fish finder?? Simple depth finder
-- auto pilot -- brands and compatibility? (need or desire to also have a wind vane) (or spare tiller?) Wind vane self-steering with tillerpilot on vane
-- wind speed -- brands and compatibility? Nice to have - whatever matches depth equipment
-- panels.html" target="_blank">solar-IRJDSUNE9932123321222xxeww-panels -- new models, more efficient, along with controllers and converters As many as I can fit - I prefer Morningstar controllers.

NMEA bus with a wifi adapter (like the XB-8000) can allow electronics to talk to a computer or handheld device with proper software and apps.

[2big2small]

I think you might receive very distinct answers on this one! Here’s my personal view and I expect many to disagree on several points.

You mentionerd that you’ll basically do coastal sailing in a nice climate and that’s therefore what my recommendations below are aimed at. (I would not yet equip my boat for a hypothetical puddle jump and only worry about that when these plans become concrete.)

I’m not going to go into brands and models though as this seems pointless to me given the huge amount of items manufactured in the past 15 yrs or so that a used boat may be equiped with, and given the rapid evolution of new stuff. You’ll likely keep most of whatever your boat comes with anyway.

I’m also a staunch believer in rugged waterproof equipment specifically developed to whitstand the marine environment and would never entrust my primary navigation needs to a laptop or tablet, but they can be nice extras. Some phones seem to be pretty watertight but their battery life sucks and you’d have to come up with a permanent (waterproof) charging dock.

So here I go:

Originally Posted by seapop

If you started from ground zero, what would your electronics look like and why?
-- VHF radio ? (necessary, but what brand or features?)
essential, preferably with GMDSS
-- SSB radio ? (necessary any more?)
superfluous in general nowadays and superceded by satellite communications, but a nice albeit expensive hobby
-- satellite phones ? brands, features?
superfluous for coastal sailing, use a cell phone even though there wouldn’t be coverage everywhere
-- email and internet connection methods ?
smartphone or tablet with sim
-- EPIRB, smaller and better brands or devices ?
always good to have but not a huge gamble to go without for coastal sailing
-- AIS transceivers
do get the transceiver and not just the receiver. They make your life so much easier especially when you’re tired or a little hypothermic and not fully clearheaded anymore
-- chart/plotter -- dedicated unit or laptop controlled? assumed built in GPS
A dedicated waterproof marine unit at the helm is essential in my opinion. Again for when you’re too tired or a little hypothermic or seasick and you get too slow or confused to understand the situation and make appropriate decisions. The chartplotter with AIS information just shows you what the deal is. You need two with at least one capable of also working off standard replacable batteries (such as AA batteries) so that it can keep working even in case of total failure of your on board electric system. Always keep fresh spare batteries on board.
-- radar -- brands
I wouldn’t spend $$$ on that since they require lots of electricity and the AIS transponder already covers the essentials.
-- forward sonar -- desirable or necessary?
definitely not essential, just slow down when it gets close. No opinion on whether it would be desirable at all.
-- depth sounding -- brands and compatibility? combined with fish finder??
essential, fish finder a nice plus if you’re into that
-- auto pilot -- brands and compatibility? (need or desire to also have a wind vane) (or spare tiller?)
electric autopilot essential as it helps reduce fatigue and exposure even when you’re motoring. Rather than putting $$$ in an expensive windvane, get solar panels to not only power your autopilot but your whole boat. Spare tiller is essential.
-- wind speed -- brands and compatibility?
only essential on a multihull
Wind *direction* is very nice to have at night but not essential when you know your boat really well, sure usefull though when you get started
-- solar panels -- new models, more efficient, along with controllers and converters
essential if your intention is to spend as much time as possible at anchor rather than at the dock, otherwise you could pull it off without and simply run your engine on the rare occasions where you’d stay away from the dock for a little longer

[belizesailor]

Hmmm...you could set this up as a poll and collect some interesting data.

How you intend to use the boat makes a big difference in how I would answer those questions. Short coastal hops versus long offshore runs. Puddle Jumping across the Pacific has a different set of requirments than near coastal hops of no more than a few days and will relativley easy access to assistance, or plan B destination, if needed. You could set up for coastal cruising first and then add electronics, and other safety gear, as you prepare for longer hops.

Personal preference and what you've become accomstomed to have a lot to do with how individuals will answer these questions. For example, some of my answers that might not follow current trends, but thats OK.

VHF. Brand not that important I think. Ships station with remote at helm, + 2 hand helds. Thats what I run now and would again.

SSB Radio. I really like having SSB aboard. Part of that preference is just that its a familiar form of comm, but yes I would install one again...especially for far offshore runs. It gives me another voice comm option, when other options fail, allows me to download Weather FAX, and listen to participate in cruisers/weather nets. Ive used SSB a number of times before to make voice calls when the satt phone just couldnt get a call thru (though with improved satt phone technology thats probably less of an issue these days).

Satt Phone. Ive owned/used/rented satt phones in the past. Would not buy one now. For me, devices like Delorme InReach have filled that niche for truly global two way comm (GlobalStar/SPOT are neither BTW).

Electronics. The capabilities of a tablet/PC running software like OpenCPN and interfaced to other electronics are pretty awesome, but I would be a lot less confident of them in the cockpit in really foul weather. I have those aboard, and would do it again. I also have a full set of Raymarine gear. Its 17 years old now, a few items have been repaired/replaced, but basically its the original hardware. Its been extremely reliable given its use in the heat and humidity of the tropics, in fair weather and foul. Hard to match that for rugged reliability. I would do that again too. Most major brands I think can hold their own against each other...otherswise they wouldnt be major brands, but I would again stick with one major brand for easy of interfacing and maximum compatible functionality. The tablet/PC running OpenCPN and other software give me backup to the boats electronics and the ability to compare/use charts from different sources, For example here in Panama I might use Navionics or CMAP for general coastal navigation (which one depends on where), but will switch to digitized version of Bauhaus's excellent charts for any detailed navigation. Options are good.

RADAR. I would do it again. RADAR and AIS are two different and complimentary tools. With RADAR overlaid on my chartplotter, I can compare the charted land boundaries with the RADAR image as one means of confirming reality vs charted. With RADAR, I can track squalls in the night that I cant see and use that to avoid them if possible...or prepare for them in advance if not. Also, many vessels dont run AIS, but I may be able to pick them up on RADAR. AIS wont help you pick your way down that winding channel...in the rain in the dark. With RADAR, I can see oil rigs in the GOM at night...even the unlit ones.

Smart Fone. Almost taken for granted these days, but what an amazing gadget to have aboard, its a back up GPS, flashlight, units converter, calculator, camera (very handy for maintenace tasks...cant get your fat head in there to take a look...no problem, stick your camera in there), maintenance list tracker (and about 5 other lists too), anchor alarm, Internet hotspot...and oh yeah, a phone! Right up there with duct tape!

[Jammer]

Hello Seapop

I'm contemplating what to do about electronics refit though my situation is somewhat different. I will share my though process fwiw.

Originally Posted by seapop

When it comes to on-board electronics, there seems to be a lot of debate on what is needed and what is not, which brands are best, and then most of all, how the technology is shifting quickly under our feet.

Much of this is situational. A fact to consider is that the electronics matter more when shorthanded, or especially singlehanded. If you have all kinds of crew you can leave someone at the helm and use a laptop at the nav station, for example, single handed you want to think seriously about an autopilot and having a chartplotter at the helm.

It sounds like a lot more can be done nowadays with laptops and smart phones. This is good for several reasons:
-- cheaper and replaceable hardware if damaged, (and keeping spares)
-- constantly improving readily available apps. (and cheap)
-- versatility and compatibility
-- multi functionality

The problem with this is that cheap laptops are not suitable for use in direct sunlight or spray. The other fact to consider, having used a smartphone on the water for the last year or so, is that to use a phone for navigation you really do need some way to mount it and some provision for charging it while it is in use at the helm.

The crossover point where it makes more sense to get a chartplotter comes sooner than you might think, especially since chartplotter prices are dropping.

-- VHF radio ? (necessary, but what brand or features?)

Whatever's cheapest

-- SSB radio ? (necessary any more?)

There are some recent discussions. Opinions vary widely.

-- satellite phones ? brands, features?

There's Iridium and then there's everything else.

-- email and internet connection methods ?

For your target area, smartphones are sufficient.

-- forward sonar -- desirable or necessary?

Many limitations, some people still swear by it for use in uncharted areas with poor visibility. In well traveled ports you won't need it.

-- depth sounding -- brands and compatibility? combined with fish finder??

Most chartplotters include sonar with some amount of "fish finding" capabilities as well as basic depth. Some of these systems are more elaborate and costly and are not necessary unless you are serious about fishing. I am budgeting $200 for a bronze, thru-hull transducer that will work with the chartplotter I plan to purchase. That will give me some "fish finding" features as well as depth to around 800 feet. I don't think a freestanding depth-only device is necessary.

-- auto pilot -- brands and compatibility? (need or desire to also have a wind vane) (or spare tiller?)
-- wind speed -- brands and compatibility?

In general these will work together. I would suggest picking a vendor and sticking with them for ease of support. The only area where there is a real difference among brands is in chartplotters; some have a very limited selection of 3rd party maps and so you get locked into a single vendor. Others are more open.

-- solar panels -- new models, more efficient, along with controllers and converters

Power systems are a separate kettle of fish from electronics

I read so much about some of the elaborate and expensive brand-electronics devices that are incompatible with other brands, and that break frequently and have no support due to model phase-outs.
Wouldn't it be great if a bunch of smaller dedicated components all fed into one control point like a laptop. They could all be cheaper plug and play units with a constantly changing and supported computer base.

Read up on NMEA2000 networking. All the major vendors support it in some form although the connector types vary. Broadly speaking, there is good compatibility for recent (early 2000s and later) electronic subsystems.

[akprb]

I’ve thought a lot about this.

Simple and disposable.

Nothing “built in”.

You’ll get plenty of other advice on platforms.

I’d spend the bulk on my redundant commercial autopilot.

That’s it.

Drove a ferry with an iPhone. About all ya need anymore ;-)

[Wallaby]

I expect you will get as many answers as CF has members. I think it comes down to a few issues and how each person responds.
Issue 1.
How much money do you have to invest in/upgrade your boat. You could do it with a compass and sextant, Slocum style. Also, if you plan on selling soon, don't throw money away by buying electronics--you will never get it back.
Issue 2.
How safe do you want to be? More technology is safer, as a general rule. If you don't have crew, do you want to sleep? What to do about getting weather reports, tracking other boats, communications, and real emergencies.
Issue 3.
How 'comfortable'/effective do you want to be? You can go with an ipad, but that waterproof chartplotter keeps working when waves are coming over the side.
Issue 4.
How good are you at installing and debugging different systems, because when you start mixing brands etc.no one is responsible.

For myself, I have the following
Raymarine: AIS, radar, depth, wind, Sirius weather + entertainment, 9" and 14" chartplotters (Navionics charts), autopilot. Staying with one brand makes them all fully integrated with Seatalk NG and HS.
Icom: VHF, SSB (with Signal Link for gribs)
ACR: Both epirbs
Simrad: chartplotter backup with Explorer charts (must have for Bahamas). A second opinion is always a good idea.
Internet (from my cheap Huawei cellphone, or Alfa booster to a local wireless network)
Satellite phone: Not yet, but maybe later this year. I'm waiting to see what the last Iridium satellite brings to the party.

Also there is a laptop computer, located in the cabin and connected to a 15" waterproof, sunlight-readable, touchscreen monitor in the cockpit. It shows movies to the bored, runs Opencpn, and provides Internet access when available. My current project is tapping into the Nmea data on the Seatalk network

[Sailnav]

Portable, handheld VHF as backup and for use in the dinghy.
Also we discovered the fixed VHF radio at the nav station in the saloon was great for distance reception because of its masthead antenna. Only trouble was, it couldn’t be heard in the cockpit when the wind noise kicked up. The fix: a hardwired cockpit remote (RAM) mike.

[danielamartindm]

A really good question, and a great diversity of replies; but even if you heed the advice of one or another, you'll still end up developing your own comfort zone where communication and navigation are concerned. As you roll away the sea miles, you'll find answers based upon available technology and your own knowledge and gifts; and one day, someone will be asking you "If you could do it all over again..."

[seapop]

Wow, some really great comments. Lots of wisdom/experience out there, as I expected...

I will surely be drawing information from each responder, and then formulating my own configurations as needed..

Since my background is in computer engineering, I am understandably interested in a (yet-to-be-developed) compressed homogeneous solution for all of the sailing navigational electronics. What I see now is individual computer solutions for each navigation component, tied together for data sharing with a communication standard NMEA2000. This gives you major points of failure with each being an expensive repair or replacement.
I have seen some movement to the simple laptop taking on some of the graphical duties, and that is a good start.
Naturally it is not in the best interest of the major marine brands to dumb-down their products into discrete components right now, it would take competition from a new approach that includes compatibility and open-sourcing.
Development of ruggedized laptop computers with outdoor readable screens is not hard to do, and these then are cheap and easy to network in a redundant and fail-safe method to spread functionality and then switch-over centralize in case of failure.

Back to reality --- I will be very happy to take on whatever systems I inherit with my new-used boat, and the upgrades that I will need to make. After all, most of the existing systems do the job quite well and serve the purpose of keeping us all safe and on course, and enjoying the journey.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by seapop

-- VHF radio ? (necessary, but what brand or features?)

Matrix with built is AIS and recorder. Good to have one piece of equipment on which to see basic AIS and a recorder to be able to playback had to hear transmissions.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- SSB radio ? (necessary any more?)

Have one but don’t really use it. If you have money to burn then get an ICOM but if not a portable receive only will work just as well then get weather.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- satellite phones ? brands, features?

Have one but only intend to activate it for an ocean passage. Instead we keep an InReach active, which supports text two way text.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- email and internet connection methods ?

Cell phone with tethering. Walk in to get WiFi. If it an emergency the family can text us on the InReach.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- EPIRB, smaller and better brands or devices ?

There is a new one with a user replaceable battery. Also have Personal AIS in each life jacket and intend to get a personal EPIRB for each as well.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- AIS transceivers

Only used one... Garmin. But would go with a vesper next time.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- chart/plotter -- dedicated unit or laptop controlled? assumed built in GPS

All the above. Have maybe 11-15 devices to navigate by. Have garmin chartplotter but would probably go B&G next time.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- radar -- brands

Hard to say... highest range of matching radar.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- forward sonar -- desirable or necessary?

Never used it.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- depth sounding -- brands and compatibility? combined with fish finder??

Have a standard depth sounder on big boat and Dragonfly sonar on dinghy. Wish we had it on the big boat. Can help pick your way through tight spots.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- auto pilot -- brands and compatibility? (need or desire to also have a wind vane) (or spare tiller?)

Only have experience in Garmin.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- wind speed -- brands and compatibility?

We have a Garmin currently but had an ultrasonic. It’s a nice to have and when ours flakes out we sailed for a long time without it just fine.

For water speed sensor I would go ultrasonic so you don’t have to worry about paddles getting clogged.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- solar panels -- new models, more efficient, along with controllers and converters

As much solar as possible. Then add wind if it won’t shade the panels.

If I had the cash and room, like on a cat, I’d also consider a water turbine.

We also have instruments that we can turn way way down so they don’t light up the cockpit.

[basssears]

Caveat, only been doing bigger boats for 5-6 years (chartering and now owning) so don't have a lot of experience, but will add what's worked for us.

As background, we bought our 32 foot coastal cruiser (pilothouse) with absolutely no electronics on it except a quite ancient (although functioning) VHF.

Originally Posted by seapop

-- VHF radio ? (necessary, but what brand or features?)
We like the Standard Horizon GX2200, it's a fixed VHF and AIS receiver in one. We also have a RAM3 mic that is mounted in the cockpit. That way we have in cockpit flexibility with fixed mount power. Portable VHF as backup and for dinghy.

-- AIS transceivers
So far for coastal cruising I have been happy with an AIS receiver (built into the VHF) that sends ship data to my laptop chartplotter. I feel for cost and complexity I'm not expecting anyone to miss me anyway so I don't need to send my location, just see other's and get out of their way.

-- chart/plotter -- dedicated unit or laptop controlled? assumed built in GPS
We use a small HP laptop as our primary chartplotter. $215 total on eBay and replacing HD with SSD. Lives in our pilothouse so it's out of the weather. It's also our check email / surf the web laptop. We use PolarNavy because that's what we started with, probably going to head to OpenCPN one of these days. We use a cheap ($30) pick USB GPS antenna seems to be as good or better than some of the bigger units. For route following we use a handheld Garmin (waterproof, rechargeable batteries) at the helm in the cockpit... I research my course and build it in PolarNavy then transfer the waypoints to the Garmin.

There are people who will point out the downsides of laptops as chart plotters... listen to the, they have good points. But for me, the low cost, replace-ability, multi use (we are on a small boat, everything needs to have as many uses as possible... this is our communications platform, destination research platform, and movie screen) and the fact that I'm not trapped into proprietary (read expensive) chart sources and upgrade paths is worth it to me.

Yes I'm a little screwed if this thing goes down, but I keep what little data is specific to that laptop backed up and, worst case scenario, in about 12 hours with Craigslist and a phone I can reproduce the setup all over again.

-- depth sounding -- brands and compatibility? combined with fish finder??
We have standard Raymarine depth sounder and paddle wheel speed sensor. Put them in new when we got the boat. In retrospect don't use the speed sensor as much as I thought (although does help calculate current vs speed over ground), depth is invaluable must have and I much prefer a single, large, dedicated screen that shows my depth, don't care to have it integrated into some tiny window on a small chartplotter screen

Only other thing I'll add is try to be as clear in your head (even though plans change) about WHEN you need some of this stuff. If you're going to coastal cruise and don't need much/any solar for a while, probably don't get it... who knows what new nifty stuff will be out in 2-3 years. I read on the forums occasionally about the people who bought a new boat, did a complete electronics refit immediately, and after a few years of getting to know the boat and spending more time sailing, by the time they get ready to head out their electronics are already out of date / not supported by manufacturer anymore.

[GMN]

Originally Posted by basssears

Caveat, only been doing bigger boats for 5-6 years (chartering and now owning) so don't have a lot of experience, but will add what's worked for us.

As background, we bought our 32 foot coastal cruiser (pilothouse) with absolutely no electronics on it except a quite ancient (although functioning) VHF.



Only other thing I'll add is try to be as clear in your head (even though plans change) about WHEN you need some of this stuff. If you're going to coastal cruise and don't need much/any solar for a while, probably don't get it... who knows what new nifty stuff will be out in 2-3 years. I read on the forums occasionally about the people who bought a new boat, did a complete electronics refit immediately, and after a few years of getting to know the boat and spending more time sailing, by the time they get ready to head out their electronics are already out of date / not supported by manufacturer anymore.

Need electronics for your new boat? Satellite Phones, Airtime, Tracking, Web Browsing...
Satellite Phones & Airtime | Satellite Email & Internet | Global Marine Networks

[basssears]

Originally Posted by GMN

Need electronics for your new boat? Satellite Phones, Airtime, Tracking, Web Browsing...
Satellite Phones & Airtime | Satellite Email & Internet | Global Marine Networks

Nope.