ICOM SSB and NMEA 0183 vs 2000

bbhflts · 20-04-2009, 20:55

Hi All.

I'm about to purchase a 2006 boat which will need to be fitted/refitted with most of the electronics as it's set up for coastal cruising and I intend to do a circumnavigation.

Hence I'm looking at how to build a relatively future proof standardised system with the best kit possible. I don't want vendor lock via integration/communication protocols so that I can use the best of breed.

So I figure that I should start with an NMEA 2000 bus linking the cockpit, nav station, engine, mast head gear, GPS, sonar etc..

My research on the net leads me to believe that SSB wise, the ICOM-M802 seems to be the best on the market for quality, reliability and functionality whilst also being a favorite of serious blue water cruisers. So I'm looking at the spec and it's only NMEA 0183 compliant. I know that I can integrate it with a bridge, but that doesn't make my solution future proof or as easily integrated to the rest of the electronics.

The arguements for NMEA 2000 not being necessary for SSB seem to center around the lack of current integration requirements to support applications. That being said, I can easily see it would be much easier if I could have my SSB punching out data onto NMEA 2000 system like DSC received calls and position data, perhaps fax or weather data for display on a cockpit console etc.. I understand the limitation is the defined "sentence" and that it's not like TCP/IP where as long as it's IP, anything can be punched onto the wire leaving up to the applications to deciphyr. Also there are many applications yet to be defined, so the use of NMEA 2000 will likely only simplify my initial installation and not provide a lot of additional functionality.

Does anyone know what the rationale is for ICOM not bringing out a new version of the M802 other than that it's been sucessfully selling since 2004? Most other manufacturers are bringing devices out with NMEA 2000 and it's frustrating to not be able to buy a best of breed radio that also has simple integration.

Anyone aware of the roadmap from ICOM?
Anyone aware of a comparable product from another vendor that does offer NMEA 2K?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers.

Ben.

s/v Jedi · 20-04-2009, 22:23

Don't focus too much on the Icom radio's as there's always better and to be honest, I think the 802 and 710 are decent kit but I'm not overly impressed with them either. The Icom VHF (I have the 602) is disappointing even.

If I were in your shoes I would certainly look for as much NMEA2000 gear as possible and that includes the SSB. But you will need an NMAE0183 network too so if the radio you really want only has that, go for it.

Why the manufacturers are slow to upgrade? well, they are lazy and you're pulling out the wallet anyway and they will squeeze it dry happily for you ;-)

ciao!
Nick.

bbhflts · 20-04-2009, 22:43

Hi Nick.

Thanks for the advice.

Got any recommendations on equally good SSB to the 802?

I've looked and can't seem to find any side by side comparisons.

Cheers.

Ben.

noelex 77 · 21-04-2009, 01:45

NMEA 2000 is still new and seems to have a few teething problems with manufacturers not adhering properly to the protocols. I don't know of any NMEA 2000 SSB transceivers.
Although not ideal, linking up an NMEA 0183 radio with a chartplotter on a boat with an NMEA 2000 sytem is not be much of a problem and I would go with the radio you want rather than something less good, because its NMEA 2000.

bbhflts · 21-04-2009, 06:50

Thanks Noelex77.

Your recommendation is pretty much the only option unless there is a decent N2K SSB out there. The annoying issue is that it's a damn expensive box to purchase and then in a years time find that the manufacturers have finally capitulated and decided to give us an up to date open standard on their new kit. I guess the other option is to go for a cheap as chips SSB and wait. That might kill the performance of any data solution such as SailMail though.

Cheers.

Ben.

noelex 77 · 21-04-2009, 09:01

Ben I don't think you will lose any functionality connecting the SSB with NMEA 0183 instead of 2000 it will just be slightly harder to connect. I think there is a conversion box available between 0183 and 2000 if you desperatly wanted, but even if available I dont think you would achieve much.
If you went for a tempoary cheap SSB you would have redo much of the instalation when the NMEA 2000 models eventually become available, and ICOM are normally conservative. I cannot see them producing a new SSB in the near future
Cheers John

Beausoleil · 21-04-2009, 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbhflts

Thanks Noelex77.

Your recommendation is pretty much the only option unless there is a decent N2K SSB out there. The annoying issue is that it's a damn expensive box to purchase and then in a years time find that the manufacturers have finally capitulated and decided to give us an up to date open standard on their new kit. I guess the other option is to go for a cheap as chips SSB and wait. That might kill the performance of any data solution such as SailMail though.

Cheers.

Ben.

You'll have the same problem with your marine VHF radio. There are few, if any, which support NMEA 2000 natively.

witzgall · 21-04-2009, 12:42

The only think that the NEMA connector will get you with a SSB is the ability to input the GPS coordinates into a distress call.

Lowrance and Simrad both (same company) have VHF units with NMEA. I have the Lowrance radio, works fine, and interfaces with NMEA as advertised. It supposedly also will show you up to three "Buddies" on the Lowrance chartplotter, if they are using NMSI, and you have entered their ID #'s . I have not tried this.

I would say put a NMEA 2000 network on the boat, and when you get to the point of interfacing the SSB, either get a converter, or use the usually supplied NMEA 0183 output from the chartplotter to feed the SSB.

FYI - I have a NMEA 2000 network:

Lowrance chartplotter
Lowrance VHF
Lowrance GPS puck
Simrad Tillerpilot
Simrad depth/speed
Garmin GMI 10 display

Icom has come out with a Ham radio with USB connector. NMEA 2000 I bet will be awhile, as they have to pay big $$$ to get each SSB type certified (called another process now, but cannot remember what).

Chris

bbhflts · 22-04-2009, 17:38

Hi Chris.

Fully agree with your comments, but still feel the need to vent on the propriatary vs open standard issue especially wrt to simrad, lowrance etc.

My view is that the foundation of the solution should be and interoperable protocol base. If a vendor comes up with a better performing protocol than the open standards as most vendors claim, then they should let the market decide and offer both whilst offering open interfaces to all their application products. I like most consumers hate vendor lockin on protocols, devices and applications. In old fashion terms, it should be along the lines that if you proclaim to be the man then you should act like a man and stand up to the test of the market. If the proprietary protocols are better including their vendor locks, then they will win. If not, the market will decide and onr innovation, performance and best of breed. Most of the time, propriatary loses out against open standard and that goes from a consumer sperpective as much as it does for a vendor. So why do we have to suffer from arrogant vendors that push for vendor lock?

Rant over.

Ben.

s/v Jedi · 22-04-2009, 22:34

My Simrad Robertson autopilot has two busses: SimNet and RobNet. I must admit I get all confused with this but one of them is just NMEA 2000 with different connectors. I think it's the SimNet. The same compass unit is sold as NMEA2000 device too.

So, even though a bus might seem different, it can actually be compatible with NMEA2000.

On radio's: I checked the spec's of the top models SSB and VHF from Thrane (Sailor) and they have NMEA0183 only. I consider these top of the top and their price tags put them well out of range for most cruisers ;-)

cheers,
Nick.

witzgall · 24-04-2009, 08:09

Simnet is the same as NMEA 2000, but with a different connector. You can either buy an adapter cable, or make your own, as I did. It is not too difficult, but may be hard to weatherproof the connector if that is needed.

Ben, I hear you about interoperability, but I am not sure what you are saying about Simrad and Lowrance. Lowrance is 100% NMEA 2000. Some of their first units had different connectors, but they learned that was a bad idea fairly quickly, and so now they are 100% pin compliant. I have it all wired up and talking to one another - Simrad, Lowrance, and Garmin coexisting peacefully.

The Lowrance NMEA 2000 radio, the LVR-880, seems to be a good unit thusfar, and gets the GPS data from the network fine. The only grip, and for $180 I really should not complain, is that I wish the mic was replaceable and the cord extendable.

Chris

20-04-2009, 20:55	#1
bbhflts Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 41	ICOM SSB and NMEA 0183 vs 2000 Hi All. I'm about to purchase a 2006 boat which will need to be fitted/refitted with most of the electronics as it's set up for coastal cruising and I intend to do a circumnavigation. Hence I'm looking at how to build a relatively future proof standardised system with the best kit possible. I don't want vendor lock via integration/communication protocols so that I can use the best of breed. So I figure that I should start with an NMEA 2000 bus linking the cockpit, nav station, engine, mast head gear, GPS, sonar etc.. My research on the net leads me to believe that SSB wise, the ICOM-M802 seems to be the best on the market for quality, reliability and functionality whilst also being a favorite of serious blue water cruisers. So I'm looking at the spec and it's only NMEA 0183 compliant. I know that I can integrate it with a bridge, but that doesn't make my solution future proof or as easily integrated to the rest of the electronics. The arguements for NMEA 2000 not being necessary for SSB seem to center around the lack of current integration requirements to support applications. That being said, I can easily see it would be much easier if I could have my SSB punching out data onto NMEA 2000 system like DSC received calls and position data, perhaps fax or weather data for display on a cockpit console etc.. I understand the limitation is the defined "sentence" and that it's not like TCP/IP where as long as it's IP, anything can be punched onto the wire leaving up to the applications to deciphyr. Also there are many applications yet to be defined, so the use of NMEA 2000 will likely only simplify my initial installation and not provide a lot of additional functionality. Does anyone know what the rationale is for ICOM not bringing out a new version of the M802 other than that it's been sucessfully selling since 2004? Most other manufacturers are bringing devices out with NMEA 2000 and it's frustrating to not be able to buy a best of breed radio that also has simple integration. Anyone aware of the roadmap from ICOM? Anyone aware of a comparable product from another vendor that does offer NMEA 2K? Appreciate your thoughts. Cheers. Ben.

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20-04-2009, 22:23	#2
s/v Jedi Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Boat: Sundeer 64 - Jedi Posts: 1,519	Don't focus too much on the Icom radio's as there's always better and to be honest, I think the 802 and 710 are decent kit but I'm not overly impressed with them either. The Icom VHF (I have the 602) is disappointing even. If I were in your shoes I would certainly look for as much NMEA2000 gear as possible and that includes the SSB. But you will need an NMAE0183 network too so if the radio you really want only has that, go for it. Why the manufacturers are slow to upgrade? well, they are lazy and you're pulling out the wallet anyway and they will squeeze it dry happily for you ;-) ciao! Nick.

20-04-2009, 22:43	#3
bbhflts Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 41	Hi Nick. Thanks for the advice. Got any recommendations on equally good SSB to the 802? I've looked and can't seem to find any side by side comparisons. Cheers. Ben.

21-04-2009, 01:45	#4
noelex 77 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: crusing Mediteranian Boat: Alumarine, one design aluminium cruiser , Amzer Zo Posts: 278	NMEA 2000 is still new and seems to have a few teething problems with manufacturers not adhering properly to the protocols. I don't know of any NMEA 2000 SSB transceivers. Although not ideal, linking up an NMEA 0183 radio with a chartplotter on a boat with an NMEA 2000 sytem is not be much of a problem and I would go with the radio you want rather than something less good, because its NMEA 2000.

21-04-2009, 06:50	#5
bbhflts Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 41	Thanks Noelex77. Your recommendation is pretty much the only option unless there is a decent N2K SSB out there. The annoying issue is that it's a damn expensive box to purchase and then in a years time find that the manufacturers have finally capitulated and decided to give us an up to date open standard on their new kit. I guess the other option is to go for a cheap as chips SSB and wait. That might kill the performance of any data solution such as SailMail though. Cheers. Ben.

21-04-2009, 09:01	#6
noelex 77 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: crusing Mediteranian Boat: Alumarine, one design aluminium cruiser , Amzer Zo Posts: 278	Ben I don't think you will lose any functionality connecting the SSB with NMEA 0183 instead of 2000 it will just be slightly harder to connect. I think there is a conversion box available between 0183 and 2000 if you desperatly wanted, but even if available I dont think you would achieve much. If you went for a tempoary cheap SSB you would have redo much of the instalation when the NMEA 2000 models eventually become available, and ICOM are normally conservative. I cannot see them producing a new SSB in the near future Cheers John

21-04-2009, 12:42	#8
witzgall Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Apex, NC Boat: Westerly Fulmar 32 - Jubilee Posts: 547	The only think that the NEMA connector will get you with a SSB is the ability to input the GPS coordinates into a distress call. Lowrance and Simrad both (same company) have VHF units with NMEA. I have the Lowrance radio, works fine, and interfaces with NMEA as advertised. It supposedly also will show you up to three "Buddies" on the Lowrance chartplotter, if they are using NMSI, and you have entered their ID #'s . I have not tried this. I would say put a NMEA 2000 network on the boat, and when you get to the point of interfacing the SSB, either get a converter, or use the usually supplied NMEA 0183 output from the chartplotter to feed the SSB. FYI - I have a NMEA 2000 network: Lowrance chartplotter Lowrance VHF Lowrance GPS puck Simrad Tillerpilot Simrad depth/speed Garmin GMI 10 display Icom has come out with a Ham radio with USB connector. NMEA 2000 I bet will be awhile, as they have to pay big $$$ to get each SSB type certified (called another process now, but cannot remember what). Chris

22-04-2009, 17:38	#9
bbhflts Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 41	Hi Chris. Fully agree with your comments, but still feel the need to vent on the propriatary vs open standard issue especially wrt to simrad, lowrance etc. My view is that the foundation of the solution should be and interoperable protocol base. If a vendor comes up with a better performing protocol than the open standards as most vendors claim, then they should let the market decide and offer both whilst offering open interfaces to all their application products. I like most consumers hate vendor lockin on protocols, devices and applications. In old fashion terms, it should be along the lines that if you proclaim to be the man then you should act like a man and stand up to the test of the market. If the proprietary protocols are better including their vendor locks, then they will win. If not, the market will decide and onr innovation, performance and best of breed. Most of the time, propriatary loses out against open standard and that goes from a consumer sperpective as much as it does for a vendor. So why do we have to suffer from arrogant vendors that push for vendor lock? Rant over. Ben.

22-04-2009, 22:34	#10
s/v Jedi Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Boat: Sundeer 64 - Jedi Posts: 1,519	My Simrad Robertson autopilot has two busses: SimNet and RobNet. I must admit I get all confused with this but one of them is just NMEA 2000 with different connectors. I think it's the SimNet. The same compass unit is sold as NMEA2000 device too. So, even though a bus might seem different, it can actually be compatible with NMEA2000. On radio's: I checked the spec's of the top models SSB and VHF from Thrane (Sailor) and they have NMEA0183 only. I consider these top of the top and their price tags put them well out of range for most cruisers ;-) cheers, Nick.

24-04-2009, 08:09	#11
witzgall Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Apex, NC Boat: Westerly Fulmar 32 - Jubilee Posts: 547	Simnet is the same as NMEA 2000, but with a different connector. You can either buy an adapter cable, or make your own, as I did. It is not too difficult, but may be hard to weatherproof the connector if that is needed. Ben, I hear you about interoperability, but I am not sure what you are saying about Simrad and Lowrance. Lowrance is 100% NMEA 2000. Some of their first units had different connectors, but they learned that was a bad idea fairly quickly, and so now they are 100% pin compliant. I have it all wired up and talking to one another - Simrad, Lowrance, and Garmin coexisting peacefully. The Lowrance NMEA 2000 radio, the LVR-880, seems to be a good unit thusfar, and gets the GPS data from the network fine. The only grip, and for $180 I really should not complain, is that I wish the mic was replaceable and the cord extendable. Chris