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Old 04-03-2015, 08:51   #1
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IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach


We're in Vero Beach, and seem unable to transmit reliably, though reception
is fine.

Previous recent Tx were fine, but I couldn't reach Chris Parker on either of
his active frequencies, even though Rx was 5/5.

I'm going to try again later on 14.3 for the Mariner's ham net; that was one
of the recently good connections, but winmail also recently seemed to be
nearly interminable at low speeds and very difficult-to-connect symptoms
when I actually WAS connected.

Vero would be better for someone coming to the boat, though Ft. Pierce and
Sebastian are a reasonable distance.

Who do you know I could rely on?

Thanks.

L8R

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Old 04-03-2015, 09:32   #2
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Lots of hams in that area. Why don't you come up on the Waterway Net in the morning (7268LSB beginning at around 0800 for general traffic) and see if someone can help you. For example, Ron, N1GYX lives on Hutchison Island and is on the Net every morning. He's also a WinLink guru, and runs the WinLink Net following the Waterway Net on Thursdays.

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Old 04-03-2015, 09:47   #3
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Thanks. I wasn't aware of it/haven't used it.

I've reached out to the VB ham club, too.
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:44   #4
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Skip,
Bad luck today....I JUST left Stuart yesterday, and drove right past (within 15 miles) of Vero !!!
(I'm out-of-town on business for a week or so....and at a client's office right now, supposedly working )

As Bill said there are lots of hams around there that may be of help, but also you might be able to figure things out on-your-own, if you take steps one-at-a-time....

[Also, please take note that using Chris Parker as your determining factor is not really a good judge....although Chris has recently added antennas, etc. and has improved his signal, these are almost exclusively for freqs of 8mhz and 12mhz, and for the longer ranges....
AND, remember that when within 100 - 150 miles of Chris, as you are in Vero, unless you are trying him on 4mhz or 6mhz, you may be too close....]


1) First off, look at the M-802's display when you are transmitting (attempting to raise someone)....
Depending on what you see, we can determine quite quickly if the tuner is working or not...

For testing, use "FSK" mode, which will transmit a continuous carrier, when the microphone's PTT button is held down....

If you've been able to connect with Winlink, albeit intermittently, we can assume the radio is transmitting a signal of some sort....
So, determining at what power, and what SWR the radio is being presented with from the tuner is next...

[This is one of the reasons that Bill, I, and others, recommend having a power/swr meter inline all the time....you will always know if your transmitter and tuner are working...]


A good way to determine if the radio is transmitting a signal, and an approximation of the SWR presented to the radio by the tuner (i.e. determining if the tuner is working), is of course watching the display's power output meter (8 segments), but also by monitoring actual 12vdc current draw...although attempting to do this with just SSB voice or a "whistle" can be difficult / problematic, so for troubleshooting this from afar, it is best to use FSK mode to first test the M-802's power amp and/or for determining if the tuner is working....

Here is the first way to do this:
a) Make sure that whatever power source you are using to power the SGC tuner from is switched on, and if you can get at the tuner power wires, measure the voltage there, to confirm you have 12-14vdc to the tuner....


b) Next, on the M-802, please select an unused/quiet channel...such a 16mhz or 22mhz marine simplex channel at night, or a 4mhz marine simplex channel during midday....
Preferably a channel that you have NOT previously tried with the M802....


c) Then, press the "Mode" button (middle button, of the three buttons immediately to the right of the display) on the M802, a few times, until you've selected FSK ("FSK" will be displayed on the top, center, of the M802's display where "USB" was).....


d) Then, to send a low-power (20 watt max) carrier to activate the SGC tuner, select "low-power", which is "F / func" and "7"...("F / func" button is the bottom button of the three immediately to the right of the M802's display...)

Then, press the microphone's PTT button...(Hold the microphone Push-to-Talk down for 5 -6 seconds, while watching the display....and then release...)

The radio should transmit a carrier, you should see 2 segments of the power output display illuminate, and the tuner should "tune"...
(Preferably with someone close to the tuner, who can listen for some "clicking" sounds inside the tuner...this will take only a few seconds at most, and may take only one second....)


e) Then to determine if the radio's PA is outputting its full power (and if the tuner is functioning properly) make sure you've selected "Hi-Power" mode.....which is "F / func" and "9"...


f) Then press the microphone Push-to-Talk button, on the upper-left side of the microphone, while watching the M802's display......
(Hold the microphone Push-to-Talk down for 2 - 3 seconds, while watching the display....and then release...)
In addition to the "TX" (transmit indicator) showing on the immediate left-hand side, middle, of the display, you should have seen the M802's power output display, at the bottom left-hand side, ("S/RF Meter")...and this power output indicator, should show a full-scale reading (all 8 segments, I think), thereby indicating full transmitter output, and good SWR (i.e. tuner is functioning properly)....

This determines if the M-802's power amp is actually working, even if the microphone element is defective, or if there is a problem with the mic amp circuit, etc. the radio should still transmit an FSK carrier here....
And, even if the tuner is not working, and the radio is presented with a very poor SWR, it will still transmit a signal, albeit a weak signal which would only show one or two segments on the radio's power output display...

If you get NO segments at all to display when in transmit mode, in "hi-pwr", in FSK transmit, then you probably have an internal M-802 power amp (PA) failure (very rare and not applicable here, since you have been able to raise a Winlink station)...

If you DO get some segments to show some output (in hi-pwr, FSK transmit), then please tell us how many....
One or two segments, show the M-802 is working properly, but the tuner is not (and the M-802 is transmitting into a high SWR...)

Seven or eight segments, means all is well with the PA and the radio is being transmitted into a low SWR (i.e. the tuner is functioning)....


If you DO have 8 segments illuminated in FSK mode.....
But, if when switching back to "USB" mode, you still cannot get any output from voice or "whistle", then I'd first suspect the microphone / mic cable / mic plug / etc. (and/or mic amp)...
Look at the output display when talking in a normal voice, with the mic about 1" away from your mouth, and see how many segments you have flashing as you speak....
You should have 4 - 5 segments for most speech, and as many as 7 - 8 on hard annunciated syllables....if you have the M-802's internal "speech compressor" turned on....if it is off, then 1 - 3 segments for normal speech, and 5 - 6 on hard annunciated syllables....

If all of the above, checks out okay....
Then your radio and tuner are functioning okay, but you may have an antenna or ground system issue....OR....

Or, it just may be radio propagation issues....
Remember what I wrote up front: please take note that using Chris Parker as your determining factor is not really a good judge....although Chris has recently added antennas, etc. and has improved his signal, these are almost exclusively for freqs of 8mhz and 12mhz, and for the longer ranges....
AND, remember that when within 100 - 150 miles of Chris, as you are in Vero, unless you are trying him on 4mhz or 6mhz, you may be too close....


Skip, I hope this helps....
Gotta' go..

Fair winds...

John
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Old 04-03-2015, 10:45   #5
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgundlach View Post
Thanks. I wasn't aware of it/haven't used it.

I've reached out to the VB ham club, too.
Been on the air every morning for the past 51 years! 7268 kHz LSB

Waterway Net Web Site

Format calls for WX info (Bahamas and Western North Atlantic Offshore WX) from 0745ET to about 0800ET. Then, announcements, general traffic, etc. Position reports for boats begins at 0815ET daily.

Coverage is from New England and Canada to the northern Caribbean, including the Bahamas. Relay stations have "good ears" and will hear just about any signal; they also have "big mouths", i.e., they run some power and have good antennas.

Please do check in, and make it a habit :-)

73,

Bill
WA6CCA
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Old 04-03-2015, 12:17   #6
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Skip,
I second Bill's suggestion here....

And, FYI...you will be amazed at how quickly, and critically, an experienced / seasoned ham can evaluate your signal....not just your raw signal strength (almost a moot point), but rather your signal compared to others at the same time (in/near the same area), as well as your audio quality, etc...

The more you listen, the more you can differentiate the "seasoned" hams, as we will rarely give a "S-meter" report, but always give a true "signal report" (which many times frustrate newer hams, but that's life!)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Been on the air every morning for the past 51 years! 7268 kHz LSB

Coverage is from New England and Canada to the northern Caribbean, including the Bahamas. Relay stations have "good ears" and will hear just about any signal; they also have "big mouths", i.e., they run some power and have good antennas.

Please do check in, and make it a habit :-)

73,

Bill
WA6CCA
Do, the tests I suggested above today....and tomorrow check-in to the Waterway Net...

Fair winds..

John
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Old 04-03-2015, 12:29   #7
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Been on the air every morning for the past 51 years! 7268 kHz LSB

Waterway Net Web Site

Format calls for WX info (Bahamas and Western North Atlantic Offshore WX) from 0745ET to about 0800ET. Then, announcements, general traffic, etc. Position reports for boats begins at 0815ET daily.

Coverage is from New England and Canada to the northern Caribbean, including the Bahamas. Relay stations have "good ears" and will hear just about any signal; they also have "big mouths", i.e., they run some power and have good antennas.

Please do check in, and make it a habit :-)

73,

Bill
WA6CCA
I'll try. Gotta get the radio fixed first!

Thanks.
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Old 04-03-2015, 15:03   #8
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Skip,
1) I think you may not quite be understanding Bill's recommendation to check-in to the Waterway Net....
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgundlach View Post
I'll try. Gotta get the radio fixed first!
Thanks.
Checking-in to the Net will give you a good idea of how your radio system is performing in very short order, and you might also find some folks that could help you further troubleshoot things...perhaps someone even local to Vero...


2) And, FYI....
With the exception of the voltage tests of the tuner power wires (which will take all of about a minute or two), all of the other tests I listed can be done by you, sitting in front of the radio, in just one minute....

So, "testing" won't take much time / effort....
Figuring out what the test results mean, and what to do next, will take only as long as it takes me to type and post the answers....



Fair winds..

John
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Old 04-03-2015, 15:49   #9
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Skip,
1) I think you may not quite be understanding Bill's recommendation to check-in to the Waterway Net....Checking-in to the Net will give you a good idea of how your radio system is performing in very short order, and you might also find some folks that could help you further troubleshoot things...perhaps someone even local to Vero...
I was being ironic. I'll try, because I won't have done the troubleshooting yet at that time in the morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
2) And, FYI....
With the exception of the voltage tests of the tuner power wires (which will take all of about a minute or two), all of the other tests I listed can be done by you, sitting in front of the radio, in just one minute....

So, "testing" won't take much time / effort....
Figuring out what the test results mean, and what to do next, will take only as long as it takes me to type and post the answers....



Fair winds..

John
Dang. I could have sworn I did those tests and reported them. Did you maybe post it in a different place (FBook, e.g.) and I responded to it there? I thought I did my responses interspersed with your instructions...

Short story is that I think the tuner's not getting power; some history on that includes that it may be powered with the radio or still on the electronics breaker.

More tomorrow, including going onto the 7:45 and 8:00 nets, a whack at 14.3 later this PM when I get back to the boat, and cruiseheimers or whichever one it is at 8:30.
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Old 04-03-2015, 16:41   #10
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Skip,
Sorry not a facebook guy....
You asked for help here, and I responded here and nowhere else...

If you've already done the tests and have been working with someone else, elsewhere....that's good...
I assume that you've gotten everything working fine by now, so no worries...
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgundlach View Post
Dang. I could have sworn I did those tests and reported them. Did you maybe post it in a different place (FBook, e.g.) and I responded to it there? I thought I did my responses interspersed with your instructions...






If you don't know where the dc power for the tuner is coming from, I suggest you physically look at the tuner and work back from there....
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgundlach View Post
Short story is that I think the tuner's not getting power; some history on that includes that it may be powered with the radio or still on the electronics breaker.
FYI, if powered from the M-802's tuner power plug, understand that if the wiring/connections are suspect/corroded/etc. you may have blown the M-802's internal 5amp fuse....and easy fix, except you need to open up the 802 to replace the fuse....just fix the problem with wiring/connections first, otherwise you'll be opening it up again!

If you are using the M-802's tuner power plug to power the SGC tuner, a simple DC voltmeter check of the "13.6vdc" power pin on the tuner control plug on the back of the M-802 will tell you right away if the radio is supplying sufficient power for the tuner....
Pin 3 is "+13.6vdc" (or actually whatever voltage the radio is being supplied), red wire on the tuner control cable...
Pin 4 is "negative", black wire on the tuner control cable...

(there are other voltages/pins, but do NOT mess with them!!)

If you get no voltage here, then the M-802's internal 5 amp fuse is most probably blown....and before you replace it, be sure to find the reason it blew (such as bad wiring, etc.)....




Skip, you may also find these videos useful....have a look...

Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / proeprly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.)

Icom M-802 Instr Videos(basic-adv) & LIVE DSC-Distress Call

New HF-DSC Explanation and LIVE Demonstration Videos





Until, I have more info, that's all I can do....
If you've already been working with someone else, elsewhere....I assume you've got it fixed by now....so no worries here, maybe someone else will find the above helpful...



Fair winds...

John
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Old 05-03-2015, 05:39   #11
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Skip,
Sorry not a facebook guy....
You asked for help here, and I responded here and nowhere else...

If you've already done the tests and have been working with someone else, elsewhere....that's good...
I assume that you've gotten everything working fine by now, so no worries...
Actually, I was working only with your tests, and, nothing has changed, yet, anyway. I'll be doing the morning nets in a few. And, I think I know what happened - I checked the preview, and got distracted by the admiral, who's very unhappy any time I'm in front of a computer; I probably thought I was looking at the posted reply, and didn't actually complete.

But the essence of the FSK tests were:

2 bars on low power, SWR flashing. Several frequencies tried.

One faint pulsing bar on high power, SWR flashing. Ditto frequencies.

I don't remember the USB tests, other than that essentially the same results were had.

No sounds heard at the open laz, in the propane locker, or the aft bulkhead in the aft cabin on which it's mounted. I'll excavate the lazarette and go spelunking after coffee and brekkers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post





If you don't know where the dc power for the tuner is coming from, I suggest you physically look at the tuner and work back from there.... FYI, if powered from the M-802's tuner power plug, understand that if the wiring/connections are suspect/corroded/etc. you may have blown the M-802's internal 5amp fuse....and easy fix, except you need to open up the 802 to replace the fuse....just fix the problem with wiring/connections first, otherwise you'll be opening it up again!
Yah, I'll do that, and of course, test for power there. I've not had the head end apart, as it takes some getting to on our boat. However, that will be part of the troubleshooting exercise.

However, I don't think the tuner power ever got over to the power plug, or whatever it is up in the corner (my unit is on end) - but that will be seen, too. C-Language helped me out with some configuration issues one year in the Raggeds, and he made a suggestion about moving the tuner power to the head end unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
If you are using the M-802's tuner power plug to power the SGC tuner, a simple DC voltmeter check of the "13.6vdc" power pin on the tuner control plug on the back of the M-802 will tell you right away if the radio is supplying sufficient power for the tuner....
Pin 3 is "+13.6vdc" (or actually whatever voltage the radio is being supplied), red wire on the tuner control cable...
Pin 4 is "negative", black wire on the tuner control cable...

(there are other voltages/pins, but do NOT mess with them!!)

If you get no voltage here, then the M-802's internal 5 amp fuse is most probably blown....and before you replace it, be sure to find the reason it blew (such as bad wiring, etc.)....
I will check all that, but I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

My controller cable is for autotuning; as the tuner is not the AT-140 or whatever it is that is a specific match to the radio from Icom, but, instead, the SGC-30, it relies on frequency matching rather than some proprietary info. The only cable - I think - to the tuner is the coax.

But meanwhile, perhaps you know the answer to my probable question generated by the suggestion by C-language: Is there someplace on that multi-probe white plug (in case that's more descriptive than whatever the box will say on it when I get it open, but unseen now) to which tuner power should be connected in order to keep it "up" during periods of Tx inactivity?

When you reference "tuner control plug" are you referring to a pinout, or an actual housing for wires? The more I cogitate on this (still not gotten to the actual box(es - head end or tuner)), the more I feel that I powered the tuner from the head end, because I have this mental picture of running a line up to the head end from the breaker box where the tuner cable use to terminate.
I'll try - but I don't have much bandwidth here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post



Until, I have more info, that's all I can do....
If you've already been working with someone else, elsewhere....I assume you've got it fixed by now....so no worries here, maybe someone else will find the above helpful...



Fair winds...

John
Thanks so much for your erudition and patience. I've actually had LOTS of chiming-in in many places, but this is the only step-by-step instructions for troubleshooting. As such, other than commentary, there's been no actual troubleshooting with anyone else.

And, I'm sure it will be helpful for later folks. I'll see if there's any output whatsoever to the morning nets, but I'm expecting not.

Thanks again.

L8R

Skip
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Old 05-03-2015, 06:28   #12
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Dead silence on 7268, though control sounded like he was at my seat.

Pulling stuff out; it will be a while before a report...

L8R

Skip
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Old 05-03-2015, 07:56   #13
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Skip,
Your initial testing shows that your original suspicion is most probably correct, in that it appears that your tuner is not functioning at all....


Specifically, in red...
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgundlach View Post
But the essence of the FSK tests were:

2 bars on low power, SWR flashing. Several frequencies tried.
This shows that the tuner is not providing a good SWR (not functioning)


One faint pulsing bar on high power, SWR flashing. Ditto frequencies.
This also shows that the tuner is not providing a good SWR (not functioning), but also shows the M-802's output is being cut-back to probably 5 - 10 watts because of the high SWR (which is what it's supposed to do)


I don't remember the USB tests, other than that essentially the same results were had.
Here again, this also shows that the tuner is not providing a good SWR (not functioning), but also shows the M-802's output is being cut-back to probably 5 - 10 watts because of the high SWR (which is what it's supposed to do)


No sounds heard at the open laz, in the propane locker, or the aft bulkhead in the aft cabin on which it's mounted. I'll excavate the lazarette and go spelunking after coffee and brekkers.
Sometimes the relay clicking sounds are faint, but since you have no tuner functions from above tests, this is a good confirmation of the above....BUT...
But, before you go spelunking, have a look at where you think the tuner is powered from, as this may well save you much time / effort!



I will check all that, but I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.
My controller cable is for autotuning; as the tuner is not the AT-140 or whatever it is that is a specific match to the radio from Icom, but, instead, the SGC-30, it relies on frequency matching rather than some proprietary info. The only cable - I think - to the tuner is the coax.
I don't want to confuse this troubleshooting discussion with too much ancillary info....but, be aware that your SGC tuner does require dc power just like the AT-140 (which also uses "freq matching", and nothing "proprietary").....the so called tuner control plug on the M-802 has two wires that provide the dc power for the AT-140, as well as two wires that controls the radio (yes, the tuner controls the radio) and selects whether the radio shows "TUNE", "THRU", etc...
Again, do not worry much about this paragraph, it's just for clarification...and to make sure that you understand that without the dc power, none of these "auto tuners" will work...





But meanwhile, perhaps you know the answer to my probable question generated by the suggestion by C-language: Is there someplace on that multi-probe white plug (in case that's more descriptive than whatever the box will say on it when I get it open, but unseen now) to which tuner power should be connected in order to keep it "up" during periods of Tx inactivity?
There is a DC power output (labeled by Icom as "13.6vdc") from the M-802 on both the tuner control jack and on the ACC jack....and these are both "hot" anytime the radio is on (not just transmitting)
There is no need to power the tuner when the radio is not in use (off)....so powering from the radio is just fine...BUT...
But some just power their SGC tuners from any nominal 12vdc source on-board, and either switch it off when not in use, or simply accept the small power draw from the tuner as part of their daily power consumption...

And, one reason for this is because of the small connector pins / precise wiring needed to attach to the Icom M-802 in order to get this dc power from the M-802....(the older Icom radios had a much heavier duty and easier to wire tuner control jack/plug, etc.)...
So, I will caution you here....if you are not completely certain you have the correct plug for the job and that you have the expertise to wire up this plug, etc. do NOT do it!!
Either hire a pro, or simply power the tuner elsewhere!!
The number one cause of radio problems is wiring/connection issues....and the number one way to blow a fuse (or worse, damage a radio) is to short-out wires/connector pins....
So, my caution again....do NOT do this unless you are ABSOLUTELY certain that you can!!! (and please excuse my bluntness, but I doubt you can do this....so hire a pro!)



When you reference "tuner control plug" are you referring to a pinout, or an actual housing for wires? The more I cogitate on this (still not gotten to the actual box(es - head end or tuner)), the more I feel that I powered the tuner from the head end, because I have this mental picture of running a line up to the head end from the breaker box where the tuner cable use to terminate.
Skip, when I wrote "tuner control plug", I should have written "tuner control jack"...as this is more accurate as it describes the small white plastic jack on the rear of the M-802's "Main Unit" (transceiver), which is what I assumed you meant by "head end"? (as the "control head", which is the radio's display/control head, has only its small control cable attachment point)...
So, my apologies for not spelling it out a bit more clearly....but, please look at either the M0802's manual or the radio itself, when reading this....it'll make life a LOT easier for 'ya!



I'll try - but I don't have much bandwidth here.
I know this sounds a bit self-serving / self-promoting....sorry about that!
Although, I designed the videos to be watched when in front of your radio (or at the least with the radio manual in hand), you can get quite a bit of info from them even if away from the boat...
So, do yourself the favor...find the internet bandwidth sometime before you head off away from the US (perhaps the public library?), plug into your headphones and have a note pad handy, and watch the videos....
You will learn a lot about your radio and radio communications in general....don't worry, they are designed for the normal sailor / layperson, not radio nuts like me!



Thanks so much for your erudition and patience. I've actually had LOTS of chiming-in in many places, but this is the only step-by-step instructions for troubleshooting. As such, other than commentary, there's been no actual troubleshooting with anyone else.
You're welcome!


And, I'm sure it will be helpful for later folks. I'll see if there's any output whatsoever to the morning nets, but I'm expecting not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgundlach View Post
Dead silence on 7268, though control sounded like he was at my seat.
Not surprised by this....
Pulling stuff out; it will be a while before a report...
No worries, take your time...
But, FYI, I recommend you look at the radio end / nav station end first...
Yes, this is contrary to my original advice, but since then we seem to have the main issue narrowed down to there not being any dc power to the tuner, so finding where you have that tuner power wire plugged into is the first step!!


I hope all the above helps...

Fair winds...

John
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Old 05-03-2015, 13:35   #14
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Just a quickie,.,.

Pard9on the typos not myt computer.

The tuner was, indeed, powered from the main box...

I got it all out and looked at efery connection, corrosion blocked all, but...

The tuner connection had the receivers way back from where they should have been; I pushed them far enough to latch, aDN reinstalled everything.

Dove the lazarette, and saw nothing interesting. Had the admiral try tests. Nothing. Except a nice hard click on power up and power down.

Back topside, remove pigtail from whip, burnish, corrosion block, replace. No change, and the FSK tests continued to produce SWR blinks, same bars low and high as before, and no clicks when changing frequencies - though, since they weren't major changes, perhaps clicking wouldn't have been heard (does the unit click all the time during transmission, or only just on the way to a different frequency - and how much of a difference in frequency is needed to generate a click to a new length?)...

So, the problem is somewhere in the antenna circuit, I have to presume.

Getting to any of the stuff in the lazarette is a real contortion act, but I can, I figure, manage to open each of the connections and make sure they are as good as they can get.

But beyond that, I'm at a loss. All is physically the same as before when it worked just fine. I'm not even sure the tuner wasn't turning on, but what I did to the connector and all the other connections in the box could not have hurt.

If there are other things I should be looking at, I'll gladly follow instructions

Meanwhile, I'm not sure how soon I'll be able to address the specifics in the one preceding; I'm off the boat again - between the antipathy toward my being on a computer, and the places the admiral drags me, I sort of have to work in spurts...

Thanks again for all the help.

L8R

Skip
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Old 05-03-2015, 20:28   #15
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Re: IC-M802 and SGC tuner help needed in Vero Beach

Skip,
No worries on typos...


See my comments/answers in red...
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipgundlach View Post
The tuner was, indeed, powered from the main box...
Okay, good to know...
What was the voltage measurement on these power wires / pins???

If there was no voltage there, then the M-802's internal 5amp fuse is probably blown, and will need to be changed....But, before connecting the wires again, you should find why the fuse blew!!



I got it all out and looked at efery connection, corrosion blocked all, but...
Not sure why you used "corrosion block" here??
As, depending on what you are actually using it might be the worst thing you can use on these connections...and you should never spray anything into the M-802!!


The tuner connection had the receivers way back from where they should have been; I pushed them far enough to latch, aDN reinstalled everything.
I'm not sure I'm understanding what you found and what you did...
But, you still haven't mentioned what the voltage was on these "connections" / "receivers"???
Without knowing if there was any voltage on these pins / connections, there was no need to re-install anything...
We NEED to know if the radio's aux dc output is working???
That is why I specifically directed you to measure this...

I've written this above in red bold type, so that you'll get that this is THE important test....

If there was no voltage there, then the M-802's internal 5amp fuse is probably blown, and will need to be changed....But, before connecting the wires again, you should find why the fuse blew!!




Dove the lazarette, and saw nothing interesting. Had the admiral try tests. Nothing. Except a nice hard click on power up and power down.
As I wrote earlier, never mind the lazarette...
Are you saying that you heard a "hard click" from the SGC tuner, or from the Icom M-802???


Back topside, remove pigtail from whip, burnish, corrosion block, replace. No change,
No change would be expected here...
Not sure why you did this???
But, did not check the if the M-802 was outputting the voltage for the tuner???

If there was no voltage there, then the M-802's internal 5amp fuse is probably blown, and will need to be changed....But, before connecting the wires again, you should find why the fuse blew!!



No change, and the FSK tests continued to produce SWR blinks, same bars low and high as before, and no clicks when changing frequencies - though, since they weren't major changes, perhaps clicking wouldn't have been heard (does the unit click all the time during transmission, or only just on the way to a different frequency - and how much of a difference in frequency is needed to generate a click to a new length?)...
Assuming by "unit" you are talking about the SGC tuner???
The tuner only "clicks" when it is looking for / finding a match/tune, which means this only happens during the first second or two (or split-second, or two) of a transmission on a new frequency that is far enough away from the "old frequency" that your antenna SWR is about 2:1 or greater....(exactly "how far away" that is...well that varies for every antenna and every installation....but typically going to be about 100khz - 200khz away...



So, the problem is somewhere in the antenna circuit, I have to presume.
NO!!
The problem is the tuner is not functioning....this is what I determined earlier, and posted that right here...
The problem that we do not know is, WHY...
Why is the tuner not functioning???

The most probable answer, that I also posted above, is that there is no dc power to it...

This is why I asked you to measure the voltage...

Without that measurement, we cannot proceed!!!

But, to be 100% clear the problem is NOT the antenna!!!

Although "technically" the SGC tuner is part of your "antenna circuit", and therefor technically correct that the problem lies in your "antenna circuit".....but in reality the problem seems to be that the tuner is not functioning....again this is why I asked you to measure the voltage that is being provided to the tuner....as I suspect the answer is going to be "zero", and hence the solution is going to be looking at the M-802 and changing its internal 5amp fuse, and checking the voltage again (BEFORE attaching the tuner power wires)....


If there was no voltage there, then the M-802's internal 5amp fuse is probably blown, and will need to be changed....But, before connecting the wires again, you should find why the fuse blew!!



Getting to any of the stuff in the lazarette is a real contortion act, but I can, I figure, manage to open each of the connections and make sure they are as good as they can get.
Skip, do NOT go any further....
MEASURE the voltage coming out of the M-802, which is probably "zero"....
Do NOTHING else, until you do this....as anything else is a waste of your time/effort (as well as a waste of my time/effort!!!)

In order to incentivize you, I will no longer respond in detail about this, until you measure the voltage and report this back...

And, if we find voltage....then and only then will I recommend you act like a Cirque du Solei performer!!

If there was no voltage there, then the M-802's internal 5amp fuse is probably blown, and will need to be changed....But, before connecting the wires again, you should find why the fuse blew!!



But beyond that, I'm at a loss.
I understand you being at a loss....'cause you haven't actually tested anything...
Do the voltage test, and report back here with the results...

If there was no voltage there, then the M-802's internal 5amp fuse is probably blown, and will need to be changed....But, before connecting the wires again, you should find why the fuse blew!!


All is physically the same as before when it worked just fine.
Skip, evidently NOT...
As you wrote about pushing things into place, etc. and I suspect that your connections (whether there at the radio or in the lazarette, or both) caused the problem...
But, we still don't know if the radio is outputting any voltage to those connections...
So, DO the voltage tests....it'll take just less than one minute, once you can get at the radio....

If there was no voltage there, then the M-802's internal 5amp fuse is probably blown, and will need to be changed....But, before connecting the wires again, you should find why the fuse blew!!



I'm not even sure the tuner wasn't turning on, but what I did to the connector and all the other connections in the box could not have hurt.
In actuality, as I wrote above, you may in fact have done some damage...not sure here, as I don't know what you used on these connections....(you write of "corrosion block" and "burnishing", which are NOT normal things to do with electronics connections....some de-ox-it, is fine...but most marine "corrosion block" is NOT for electronics/electrical connections...)


If there are other things I should be looking at, I'll gladly follow instructions
This statement seems contrary to what you did...
As I asked you to measure the voltage, and not to use corrosion block / burnish things...
Perhaps you are confusing someone's "facebook" advice with mine again???
Not sure, but if you wish to proceed (i.e. "follow instructions"), then do so....if not, no worries...

If there was no voltage there, then the M-802's internal 5amp fuse is probably blown, and will need to be changed....But, before connecting the wires again, you should find why the fuse blew!!



Meanwhile, I'm not sure how soon I'll be able to address the specifics in the one preceding; I'm off the boat again - between the antipathy toward my being on a computer, and the places the admiral drags me, I sort of have to work in spurts...
Skip, no worries here...
But, if you are unwilling / unable to measure the voltage and report back, then you NEED to hire a pro....or find someone willing to do this while you and admiral are out 'n about...
I do wish you well....but, 'til you actually measure the voltage and report back, you are wasting your (and my) time...
Do NOT worry about writing a treatise about all of this, just do the tests and report back the results, and we'll go from there!!

If there was no voltage there, then the M-802's internal 5amp fuse is probably blown, and will need to be changed....But, before connecting the wires again, you should find why the fuse blew!!

Fair winds...

John
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