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Old 02-03-2017, 02:48   #1
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I-pad Navigation App Dangers

I don't use I-Pad myself,

Instead, I use an integrated Furuno MFD and am very much a radar oriented navigator when coastal cruising

However, for those who rely on IPad Nav Apps, I am interested in their comments of this UK accident report involving an experienced user

MAIB: Experienced Launch Skipper Relied on iPad Navigation App Prior to Collision – gCaptain
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:05   #2
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

Not sure which app was used, but most, like Navionics do not need wifi after the initial download of charts
It relies on the internal gps of the I-pad ( if the correct model) for position

After reading the link, they had radar, didn't use sound signals, no other mention of fix by traditional means.
iPads are great as an aid and as often stated should not be the sole method of navigation
But we all make mistakes, just some have a worse consequence!
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:29   #3
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

IMO There are a number of unclear statements in this "report". I don't know of anybody that relies on a Wifi ONLY connected iPad for navigation. If that is saying that the iPad is not a Cellular & wifi model then it doesn't have by definition its own GPS capability unless it has a third party GPS dongle attached. How then was it plotting anything?

We use both a Navionics app PLUS the Raymarine Remote Control app on iPad on a Cellular enabled model. Meaning it has its own internal GPS to run the Navionics app uniquely PLUS (at the same time) display our Raymarine a77 MFD chart plotter via wifi.

If the report was trying to say that the wifi only iPad was connected to a MFD via wifi then why even mention it as that really is no fault of the iPad as it was just displaying/reporting/mirroring the MFD chart plotter. So why the surprise.

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Old 02-03-2017, 03:31   #4
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

A lot went wrong here. You can see the full report here: https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ort04_2017.pdf

This in the summary is pretty incredible:

"Peggotty was equipped with a radar, a GPS plotter, navigational lights and a hand-held fog horn. However, it was not equipped with a radar re ector, the radar scanner was not rigged, the GPS plotter did not have the correct charts, and although there was a paper chart on board there were no plotting instruments. Furthermore, the navigational lights were faulty and the hand-held fog horn was not sounded regularly."

In addition, the crew didn't know how to use the iPad. All this in dense fog with zero reported visibility.

Hoofsmit's right - the iPad should continue to function without wifi, as should the navigation app. They don't say what app was being used, and that could make a difference. But the dozen or nav-related apps on my iPad all work without wifi (and even without cell signals). (And my plotter has charts for the areas that I sail!)

It is possible that the iPad was wifi only, in which case it would have no gps capability when out of range of wifi signals (and even with signals, location would be approximate).

A series of operator mistakes, the last of which was relying on an iPad without knowing how to use it.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:31   #5
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

Sorry - here is the full report: https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ort04_2017.pdf
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:32   #6
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

He may be a pilot but he doesn't sound experienced.


In general, charting apps work fine away from wifi. I assume there is more to this story.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:43   #7
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
He may be a pilot but he doesn't sound experienced.


In general, charting apps work fine away from wifi. I assume there is more to this story.
Yes that had me confused as I thought they could be used offline.
sounds like a quick favor gone really bad.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:59   #8
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

“although Peggotty was visible on both VTS Humber and Petunia Seaways’ radar displays, neither acquired nor plotted the target.”
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:10   #9
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

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“although Peggotty was visible on both VTS Humber and Petunia Seaways’ radar displays, neither acquired nor plotted the target.”
That really surprised me.

In PNW whenever we have Fog.....VTS is plotting every small and large vessel and alerting then to proximity.
Could it be that this failure is an early example of an 'AIS assisted colission' where VTS just assumed that they were watching each other on AIS or maybe they knew the off duty pilot and ignored him.
Both mistakes by VTS
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:38   #10
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

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That really surprised me.

In PNW whenever we have Fog.....VTS is plotting every small and large vessel and alerting then to proximity.
Could it be that this failure is an early example of an 'AIS assisted colission' where VTS just assumed that they were watching each other on AIS or maybe they knew the off duty pilot and ignored him.
Both mistakes by VTS
And yet the title of the gCaptain article and the title of this thread refer to the dangers of using an iPad for navigation.Typical media hype and CF fear mongering!!!!!!

I have been using an iPad for a couple thousand miles now. I love it. It is a useful tool. But like RADAR and possibly AIS which failed in this instance, no single tool is a substitute for safe navigation practices.
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:43   #11
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

There is obviously a danger in the way this person used it, which was the reason for starting the Thread, in case others did the same.
No failure on the radar as same skipper never used it (mast not deployed) and I guess he assumed others would see him by their radars.
basically operator errors in a number of places.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:03   #12
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
There is obviously a danger in the way this person used it, which was the reason for starting the Thread, in case others did the same.
No failure on the radar as same skipper never used it (mast not deployed) and I guess he assumed others would see him by their radars.
basically operator errors in a number of places.
Unfortunately, the article failed to articulate the issue. The vast majority of chart plotter apps don't need wifi. A better written article would have clarified if it was an issue with a specific app.

This is like saying Pintos blow up when they are rear ended so we should outlaw all cars.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:27   #13
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

probably he used ipad without gps an relied on wifi for his position, no wifi no postion.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:33   #14
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
There is obviously a danger in the way this person used it, which was the reason for starting the Thread, in case others did the same.
No failure on the radar as same skipper never used it (mast not deployed) and I guess he assumed others would see him by their radars.
basically operator errors in a number of places.
I don't understand. It sounds like you think fault is exclusively born by the pilot, and that VTS and the captain of the Pettunia (both radar equipped) share no responsibility for the collision.

I wouldn't say it is obvious there is a danger in the way this person used the iPad because the investigative board did not state the use of the iPad was the sole reason the collision occurred. I would have to reread the article but I believe the only determination about the use of the iPad was that it gave the pilot some self confidence that was unwarranted. Otherwise I think the article said the captain of the Pettunia was traveling too fast for the conditions and failed to sound a horn.

VTS and the captain of the Pettunia both had radar and could see the pilot and yet a collision occurred. Despite these facts the focus is on the failure of the iPad? Gimmie break please. Clearly several people screwed up on this one in several different ways.

Unfortunately, the poorly written article puts the emphasis on the iPad instead of providing real insight as to why this collision occurred. Good thing for gCaptain is that they will get lots of hits and resultant revenue for their hype.

Blaming the iPad is ignoring the facts in favor of a bunch of hot button sensationalism. My take away from this one is that people who expect radar to work flawlessly in preventing collisions are just as prone to making mistakes in using it as anyone else using any other method. My other take away is that you obviously have a bias in favor of radar and against iPads. That's fine. To each his own.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:39   #15
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Re: I-pad Navigation App Dangers

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalstar View Post
probably he used ipad without gps an relied on wifi for his position, no wifi no postion.
How old is that ipad? I have a 6yr old cheap android tablet and it has GPS.
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