I-pad Navigation App Dangers

[KRMS]

Hello people! This isn't an iPad wifi vs cellular story. If you read the full report (link kindly provided by bksail earlier in this trail) you'll note that a couple of people who'd only just met set off well before dawn in thick fog without any means of 'seeing' over vessels or knowing where they were. Can something really be an accident when it's almost inevitable? Sorry to be hard on the skippers and the trail initiator but really!!!

[macman4190]

I sail/race solo over 1000 miles per year on the Great Lakes. I have completed an 8 day passage from Virginia to the BVI. Nothing in this article tells me that using my iPad for navigation is dangerous. If the external GPS antenna I am using fails, I can use the internal iPad antenna. If the iPad fails, I can use my phone, or the handheld GPS, which is always running anyways. Even though radar "failed" to pick up the wooden boat with no radar reflector, that does not tell me that using radar is dangerous. I have AIS. If AIS was misused, that does not tell me that using AIS is dangerous. One needs to really know how to use the tools one is relying on, what the limitations are, and how to back them up with redundant systems. Even good chart plotters have been known to go on the fritz. Should we declare them to be dangerous to use for navigation?

[hsi88]

iPad has become one of those words that is a brand but has become a generic description as well. I have seen kids call their cheap RCA tablets, iPads. A $50 tablet is not an iPad. In reading these accounts, they use the term in a pretty generic way. There are no specifics on model or even software which has importance to all of us. I fully understand why it would not come up in an article or even a secondary police account. It is only of interest to folks like us. So I wouldn't be so hung up on if the device had GPS or not. The write up said it wasn't working. So at that point, regardless of capabilities, for them it ceased to be of use.

[henriiv]

You gotta do a detailed closeup chart download while you have WiFi. After you won't have problems with detail

[Seawindow]

In my kit, I have Navionics on an iPad however it is connected via Bluetooth to an external GPS (Bad Elf Pro+). Without this, even GPS enabled iPads rely on cell towers I believe?? The accuracy & dependability of the external GPS is A1. Has made life easier when my Raymarine RS75 GPS died recently en-route....

[gspeak]

Originally Posted by Seawindow

Without this, even GPS enabled iPads rely on cell towers I believe??

This is incorrect!

GPS iPads Do NOT rely on cell towers. They can use them if available to help with "assisted GPS", but they don't rely on them. We have been using cellular enabled iPads with NO SIM for the past 5 years perfectly well with Navionics.

NO SIM installed means that they CAN'T use cell towers!

Dave

[Seawindow]

Originally Posted by gspeak

This is incorrect!

GPS iPads Do NOT rely on cell towers. They can use them if available to help with "assisted GPS", but they don't rely on them. We have been using cellular enabled iPads with NO SIM for the past 5 years perfectly well with Navionics.

NO SIM installed means that they CAN'T use cell towers!

Dave

Dave,

You are correct! Just did better research (I have limited internet where I am)...

"There’s more to the story, though. In addition to the cellular radio, the 3G/LTE models of the iPad also have a built-in GPS receiver. Apple calls this “assisted GPS,” which is probably where the confusion comes in. By assisted GPS, Apple means that the GPS receiver in the iPad can use nearby cell towers to provide a faster position lock (what engineers call “time to first fix”). Instead of starting up cold and searching for satellites, which can take up to a few minutes in some cases, the iPad knows right where to look. With a hot start like this, your iPad can find its position in just seconds."

Stand corrected, thanks.

[delmarrey]

I haven't read the whole thread but I thought I'd put this out there.

On my trip from SD to the PNW last fall I was running the WatchMate APP that goes with my Vespar AIS plotter, and it locked up the iPad and I couldn't reset it until I got access to Wifi again. Which told me I had to log back into iCloud again for a reboot. I never did find out what the problem was.

But as for its accuracy, it's always been spot on with iNav, Earthmate, Marinetraffic & other APPs.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by hsi88

iPad has become one of those words that is a brand but has become a generic description as well. I have seen kids call their cheap RCA tablets, iPads. A $50 tablet is not an iPad. In reading these accounts, they use the term in a pretty generic way. There are no specifics on model or even software which has importance to all of us. I fully understand why it would not come up in an article or even a secondary police account. It is only of interest to folks like us. So I wouldn't be so hung up on if the device had GPS or not. The write up said it wasn't working. So at that point, regardless of capabilities, for them it ceased to be of use.

This was an article from a marine industry site, so they absolutely should have addressed make model and software.

No one uses iPad as a generic term for tablets any more. Though ironically iPads were among the last tone get gps as standard.

[gspeak]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This was an article from a marine industry site, so they absolutely should have addressed make model and software.



No one uses iPad as a generic term for tablets any more. Though ironically iPads were among the last tone get gps as standard.

Uhmm, not that it matters, but I recall that the first iPhone & iPad Cellular had the GPS capabilities from the start.

Dave

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by gspeak

Uhmm, not that it matters, but I recall that the first iPhone & iPad Cellular had the GPS capabilities from the start.

Dave

That's the key with ipads. Initially, you could only get GPS if you upgraded to the cellular enabled version.

Initially, android tablets had similar issues but they quickly moved toward cellular or non-cellular enabled tablets having GPS.

I believe the latest round of ipads have GPS regardless of cellular status, so at best the fear mongering put out by this poorly researched article (and poorly titled thread).

Again, the article never stated which year/model ipad was involved, if it had GPS or what chart software was in use. To issue a blanket status of "dangerous" without that information is at best misleading.

It does lead me to wonder if as a marine publication, they are beholden to advertisers including chart plotter manufacturers who stand to lose a market if tablets are seen as viable and this is the underlying reason they put out a misleading article. Even on large boats it could have an impact...rather than buying a full dedicated backup chart plotter, most logical people would pick up a $100 tablet for backup use. On smaller boats not used for long distance cruising, a couple tablets that are already owned make viable chart plotters. It could really undermine the market for dedicated marine units.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

.

It does lead me to wonder if as a marine publication, they are beholden to advertisers including chart plotter manufacturers who stand to lose a market if tablets are seen as viable and this is the underlying reason they put out a misleading article. Even on large boats it could have an impact...rather than buying a full dedicated backup chart plotter, most logical people would pick up a $100 tablet for backup use. On smaller boats not used for long distance cruising, a couple tablets that are already owned make viable chart plotters. It could really undermine the market for dedicated marine units.

I started this thread to clarify IF there were dangers associated with Tablet navigation. As I don't have one, I just wanted to know what the key issues were if I bought one.

The report was put out by the UK Marine Accident Investigation Board and they could care less about sponsorship!

What I have learned so far is
1 You need to be careful which Tablet you use as far as reliable GPS

2 That some units require external links to maintain GPS accuracy.

3 That the skipper was an idiot to rely on it in a fog situation where blind navigation without using his available radar, means NO NAVIGATION, with or without a working IPad.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

The report was put out by the UK Marine Accident Investigation Board and they could care less about sponsorship!

The report may have been put out by them but the link was not to the report. The link was to an article selectively pulling incomplete and misleading information from the report.

gcaptain sells advertisements in the real world. I doubt they want to tick off current or potential advertisers.

[Southpass]

So he was in dense fog, in a channel, using a device that relies on wifi for it's position? Seems a bit risky to me even if you had accurate position data. I know some iphones no longer have internal gps but, I'm not sure if iPads had them omitted as well.