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Old 12-06-2006, 18:39   #16
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Thanks John:

I'll look at differene tsources when I find out what I need.

The admiral wants to cruise the Med. We have two boat models in the running right now -- Pearson 42 and Sceptre 41. The S41 is a real nice looking boat and still looks like a sailboat even though it has a pilot house. The Pearson is quite a bit cheaper and therefore fits our budget better. We will see which way the coin lands.

Where in the med are you. I would like to spend two seasons in the med and I thinkthat we could scratch the surface with that. Admiral wants to spend alot of time in Spain.
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Old 12-06-2006, 22:14   #17
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John - it wasn't HIS dad.. it was his father-in-law Four years ago, I bought a LOT of cordage from sailnet. I could never figure out why the regular prices at sailnet were 30% cheaper than WM. But it got even better: Sailnet would often put their cordage (New England Ropes) on 50% off ... no sails (pun intended) tax, and if you purchased more than $100 USD, shipping was free. I currently have two NEW sets of sheets for Jib, Main, Mizzen and Spinnaker (only one for the mizzen staysail), along with a full NEW set of halyards, plus 600' of 3/4 anchor line/dock line.

WM couldn't even come close. ::shrug::: I didn't question - obviously I just made some great purchases.
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Old 20-06-2006, 15:38   #18
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I guess that home much you want/need in instrumentation will always come down to personal preference. I tend to look at it this way:

Need:
Depth sounder
Speed & Log
GPS

Want:
Wind speed
Plotter

Like:
Wind direction
RADAR
AIS RADAR
Fluxgate compass
Weatherfax
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Old 22-06-2006, 23:18   #19
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I have saved a lot of money buying discontinued stock, the very last one. I bought my JRC 1800 (colour chart plotter and radar) heavily discounted since it was the store demo and I bought my Garmin 320 fishfinder the same way, heavily discounted as it was the last one. JRC has discontinued the 1800 which meant that saved me money as the store got rid of their last one.
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Old 23-06-2006, 08:07   #20
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Charlie...I am outfitting a new boat. Here are the electronics I have chosen, and the overall quote (gear, misc cables and pods/ mounts, labor, taxes...the whole 9 yards). Like you, I am based on the West Coast, and plan on cruising for 3-5 years with my family. All stuff is Raymarine (though I also like Furuno).
E-80 radar/ plotter at nav station (8" screen)
E-120 radar/plotter to port of companion way (center cockpit) with custom pod
4 kw radar dome on stern arch
st 60+ wind/speed/depth, at c-way, and all transducers
Icom 504 VHF at nav, plus Command Mic 3 at helm on pod
Xantrax Prosine 2KW inverter/ charger

All up, this comes to almost $17k. I sourced most items from Port Supply or a local chandlery where I have a wholesale account. The labor component alone is $5k (part of the 17k total). Note this does not include an auto-pilot.

I decided on the 2 screens for a couple of reasons...ability to plot and see radar from 2 above or below, some degree of redundancy, and the ability to have the nav station screen as the "mother" and then slave to the c-way screen. The labor savings on this type install ALMOST paid for the E-80, as
it is much easier than making the c-way screen the mother (or stand-alone) unit.
Anyway, hope it gives you some idea of what things cost.
John
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Old 24-06-2006, 12:58   #21
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Thanks John:

That really helps alot. I like the Raymarine stuff that I've used. It is really intuitive. We decided to pass on the first Sceptre that was located in SF. We now have an accepted offer on one in Vancouver BC. Once again the electronics are pretty old but we don't plan on leaving right away so I am just going to use the existing electronics and then see how they work out and which ones I use.

I've got a nine year old girl and an eight year old boy. We wanted to do this before High school. The family wants to experiment with it so we'll take it easy and slip into cruising. Since the boat is in PNW we will cruise there for a couple of months in between now and 2007 and then take the boat to Mexico maybe doing the Baja Ha Ha. Putting the boat in La Paz till Dec (after kids soccer season) and then cruise a couple of months in Sea of Cortez. From there if everyone likes it enough we'll take the boat down the coast to Panama and thru the canal. From there we'd like to go to the Med. Whether we sail there or put the boat on a ship is open for debate. Cruise the Med for a couple of seasons and then come back and do the Carribean. I don't think that the family will take to full time cruising -- though I could -- We'll have to find places to keep the boat on the hard for months at a time in between cruising but I think it will work out for the better.


Thanks RSN: With the plan outlined above I will have time to shop around.

Weylan: I think you are right in making a list of need, want, like.
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Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
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Old 24-06-2006, 13:06   #22
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Charlie...We'll see you in San Diego for the start of the '07 Ha Ha. My girls will be 6 and 8 then...like you, we want to give them this experience before they get too sassy to appreciate it.
I see you have a CA address. There are sales-and property tax implications here. Hit me off-list if I can assist. I'm no tax pro, just an unhappy camper currently involved in personally financing every pot-hole in this korrupt, kriminal , kommunistic state of kalifornia.
For you IRS guys, my name is Bob and I live in L.A.
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Old 24-06-2006, 14:08   #23
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I've bought a lot of things via the internet. One place I get good eeals is www.brokenlegdave.com name sounds goofy but he carries a lot of brands. he is in NJ so sails tax can be saved. You are ready to buy then put a list together and ask for a quote you will always get 5% more off sometimes more depending on the items. I regualy beat eBay rpices through this site. West Marine is only for when you need something in a real hurry and want to walk in get it and leave.

The integrated display gets to be cheaper if you want radar. Radar to me is one of those things most people starting out couldn't use to save a life. It is a tool that takes a lot of practice. I use mine in good weather while motoring a lot just to get better at it. When use properly in skilled hands it can be exceptionally valuable. The one monitor does all gets affordable when you add radar and fish finders into the display. The new networks are better than the old NMEA. IF you have decent NMEA 0183 gear then keep it until you need to replace it. With basics and at least one backup GPS you can be good to go. Radio is the other gear you have to have. A backup for VHF isn't a bad idea. Off shore then there are other more expensive issue to deal with. I would want weather FAX and basic email even if very limited. Sometimes it's just a simple message that makes or breaks the trip.

Once you go down the Raymarine road you sort of are stuck with that choice. They make it easy to use only their stuff because nothing else will coexist with it (other than radio) . Unlike the the old NMEA 0183 standard there really are no standards for the new stuff. The vendors don't want them. Back in the late 1990's they felt afraid that they would be able to do the network based gear and would need 3rd party suppliers to supply basic networking chips so they wanted a standard - "NMEA 2000" was born. It's 6 years later and there isn't much out and there won't be much more. Lots of network based gear but it's not standard.

I've a TackTick wireless wind instrument. They cost a lot more but you can install one in about an hour. Climb the mast and bolt the transducer to the masthead and it's all over. Yes, it's more up front but installation is a breeze. My first unit was not that great The desing wasn't as good as it should so they just replaced it with the newer one. You get two years warranty. The battery is a thing people like to say "Oh that won't last". It's been two years and the display has never been anything other than full power all the time. The key is they have the power exceptionally low. The units are 100% sealled so nothing to repair or replace. There is nothing to service waht so ever. The speeed log is still something you have to clean and depth transducers are still waht they always have been (pretty reliable). They don't so radar and they don't have a chart plotter. They did just come out with a remote handheld display though. Solar powered so you can sit on the bow and read depth, wind, speed, GPS and all the rest of the data you get from those types of instruments.

Auto pilot would be the other thing. Gotta have one and a wind vane for off shore. for a 41 ft boat you don't want a wheel based unit.
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Old 24-06-2006, 17:21   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meridian
Hit me off-list if I can assist. I'm no tax pro, just an unhappy camper currently involved in personally financing every pot-hole in this korrupt, kriminal , kommunistic state of kalifornia.
For you IRS guys, my name is Bob and I live in L.A.
Don't get me wrong I don't like the Infernal Revenue Service but they are pussy cats compared to the Franchise Tax Board. When we moved back from Montana the admiral still had a house in her name. (Her Ex-husband got the house in the divorce) We hadn't filed a CA tax return in a few years b/c we didn't have any CA tax or income. When the admiral started working again the FTB said that you owned a house in CA that had such and such a loan on it so you needed to make this much money to support the mortgage so you made this much income and you owe us this much tax. We wrote back a letter stating that we didn't live or have any income in CA during that period that the house was given to her EX in the divorce. FTB said they didn't believe us and garnished the admirals wages. Fortunatley she had quit that job so they didn't get a hand on any money. I provided them a copy of the divorce decree they said that wasn't good enough. Finally I threatened to sue them and pull in the ACLU. I never heard back from them. What a privelege to live in California.
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Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
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Old 24-06-2006, 17:24   #25
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Thanks Paul:

Good info. I was wondering about radar. I think I might take a class in it at the California Maritime Academy. It sure is nice to redundant navigation info and the radar is perfect for that if you know how to use it.
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Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
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Old 25-06-2006, 12:12   #26
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Charlie, you might consider radar training software instead of an in class experience. The advantage is that you can re-enforce what you have learnt by re-taking the software course from time to time.
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Old 25-06-2006, 23:11   #27
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Thanks RSN:

That is a good idea I'll look into it. BTW headed up your way to look at a Sceptre 41 on the Fraser River. Pretty excited. Leave on June 30 will be up for Canada Day and will miss out on July 4th in the states.
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Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
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Old 26-06-2006, 07:06   #28
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On the issue of Data in the cockpit, I have seen the rise of the "instrument pods".

Of course, for the helmsmen having all that data right there is quite handy... that is when you hand steer.

How much time DO you actually spend behind /at the helm? Can you see your headsail trim and your instruments on the pod at the same time? Do the trimmers need to see the data? Can they?

My sailing style heavily relies on the use of a below decks autopilot and I rarely hand steer... usually for sheer fun in good conditions... or docking... or anchoring and then the data displays are not especially helpful. Our instruments are all forward above the companionway and visible from the entire cockpit which seems to be a good solution. However you neet to be AT the instruments to do "button pushing" to bring up new data.

What are you feelings about WHERE the cockpit instruments are and how do you use them?

Jef
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Old 26-06-2006, 16:35   #29
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Quote:
What are you feelings about WHERE the cockpit instruments are and how do you use them?
Most of the time when it is critical conditions such as heavy weather or tricky channels is when it all matters most. Information overload can cripple the helmsman. This I think is more the helmsman than the instruments. I find sight and external senses to be what I want the most, but a quick look at something else is valuable for what I can't see.

What I find that can be the worst thing is a chart plotter. When you are down to feet and inches the chart plotter is useless. You can't pilot by wire into a small channel. You need visual senses to confirm all too many things. Maybe radar is a tool in some situations.

Based on that:

The helmsman has to decide what are the critical issues that are most important. This is the key element to piloting. You have to ignore the depth meter if the water is very deep and focus on depth when it is very very shallow. I would say the test is if the "pod" obstructs visibility you have a problem. If the helmsman can't look away from the chart plotter it might be far worse yet. It takes skill to use instruments and that is something many people miss. With all hell breaking loose too many instruments could be the end of the day unless you know what is important and what is not. You are a human being and there is a limit to what you can focus upon. You have the ability to ignore the unimportant data but may lack the skill to know what is the important information.

We have an ability to provide more information than can be easily assimilated unless you have the skill to know.
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Old 26-06-2006, 17:08   #30
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I think that it is good to have the chart plotter and/or radar available in the cockpit. I agree with Paul about using your senses but the ability to use radar in the cockpit can be very important when near ships or land in dark or foggy conditions. If you are short handed there might not be time to run below and check the radar.
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Between us there was, as I have already said somewhere, the bond of the sea. Besides holding our hearts together through long periods of separation, it had the effect of making us tolerant of each other's yarns -- and even convictions. Heart of Darkness
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