Have to haves and wants

[PortClydeMe]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Hi brookiesailor, as one of the known frugal sailors here, I do find your question rather odd. In an ironic sense I'm kinda with Port Clyde: buy everything. Clearly money is no issue, and I don't get the sense that you'll be doing much of your own maintenance, so why not buy everything?

My minimal (frugal) electronic needs are:

• Compass
• Barometer
• VHF/DSC with AIS receiver (b/c it's so cheap now)
• Depth/speed
• Handheld GPS (with a couple of backups)
• Chart books for the cruising area (no chartplotter)
• Windex & yarn (no electronic windy)
• Tracker (SPOT/inReach)

On the more electrical side (not exactly electronics):

• Solid windlass. I prefer manual, but on your size of boat a top quality electric is probably more feasible.
• Auto-pilot. Again, I prefer a windvane, but a top-quality below-deck electric or hydraulic is going to be vital.
• Fridge

You'll want a good charging system, so solar and possibly wind. Alternator, of course.

Things you don't need, but might still want (and can clearly afford):

• Big chartplotter
• Forward sweeping sonar
• Watermaker
• AIS transponder
• Freezer
• A/C
• Washer/dryer
• Heater
• Radar (although this might be a need depending on where you cruise)
• Sat phone
• SSB
• TV

That was basically my point. As Benz pointed out above, my wife and I don't currently own a boat, yet we know what we want. Being around boats my whole life, I'm also acutely aware as to "what's needed". It sounds like Brooke and her husband have also spent time ascertaining what they want, and the only real advice I can offer is that if funding is not "too much" of a consideration, buy nice things. Nice things break less often. I turn 54 this month, and maybe have 20 more years (if lucky) to sail the high seas. I grew up camping in Maine. Know that life very well. Hiking and camping is fun, but when it comes to our boat, we don't want to go camping. If something breaks, fix it or replace it. It's pretty simple. Someone mentioned "Look at all the time you'll be spending fixing all those toys as we simple boaters enjoy the sun and waves." I look at it in reverse. "Look at all the time you campers will spend toting water jugs and food to the boat and sitting in the marina laundry while my wife and I take steaks out of the big freezers, enjoy unlimited showers, and enjoy sailing while our wash spins around in the onboard washer-dryer." There's two ways to look at everything. My days of being a 'minimalist' are far behind me.

Want toys and gadgets? By them, install them, and enjoy. Life's too short to do otherwise.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

Thanks,
I am more of a minimalist than hubby is. I learned navigation on paper charts with hand bearing compass and the like. The boat had a vhf and that was it. That is my comfort zone at this point. I could learn to use the rest of it but not necessary in my life.

Being able to afford things doesn't necessarily mean you have to have them.

Sure, fair enough. We can and do paper charting when appropriate...

At the same time, and taking the long view, A complete electronics suite allows us to pay more attention to the trip and to the scenery than to the charts. (Used appropriately, I mean; not blindly.) Easier/faster electronic trip planning and piloting simplifies (for us) the "simply mechanical" aspects of navigation, and hence makes our transits more enjoyable.

Different strokes...

OTOH, there's one piece that addresses potential crew fatigue, especially on longer trips: an autopilot. Which in turn needs input (GPS). (And in sailboats, maybe needs wind info?)

Another piece that speaks to vessel and crew safety: DSC VHF radios, which also need GPS to be most effective.

And then there are advantages of AIS in crowded shipping lanes, which needs...

Well, you probably get the picture

-Chris

[PortClydeMe]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Sure, fair enough. We can and do paper charting when appropriate...

At the same time, and taking the long view, A complete electronics suite allows us to pay more attention to the trip and to the scenery than to the charts. (Used appropriately, I mean; not blindly.) Easier/faster electronic trip planning and piloting simplifies (for us) the "simply mechanical" aspects of navigation, and hence makes our transits more enjoyable.

Different strokes...

OTOH, there's one piece that addresses potential crew fatigue, especially on longer trips: an autopilot. Which in turn needs input (GPS). (And in sailboats, maybe needs wind info?)

Another piece that speaks to vessel and crew safety: DSC VHF radios, which also need GPS to be most effective.

And then there are advantages of AIS in crowded shipping lanes, which needs...

Well, you probably get the picture

-Chris

Bingo! Buy that man a cigar!

[brookiesailor]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Sure, fair enough. We can and do paper charting when appropriate...

At the same time, and taking the long view, A complete electronics suite allows us to pay more attention to the trip and to the scenery than to the charts. (Used appropriately, I mean; not blindly.) Easier/faster electronic trip planning and piloting simplifies (for us) the "simply mechanical" aspects of navigation, and hence makes our transits more enjoyable.

Different strokes...

OTOH, there's one piece that addresses potential crew fatigue, especially on longer trips: an autopilot. Which in turn needs input (GPS). (And in sailboats, maybe needs wind info?)

Another piece that speaks to vessel and crew safety: DSC VHF radios, which also need GPS to be most effective.

And then there are advantages of AIS in crowded shipping lanes, which needs...

Well, you probably get the picture

-Chris

Lol! I am just trying to visualize how to get all the antennas, solar panels and wind generator on the back of a double ender?


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[rwidman]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

I am looking at purchasing a new boat. I am interested in this one model and when looking over the spec sheet I noticed it didn't list any electronics. So I contacted the builder and found out that in fact there are no electronics included, not even a radio. Weird. Anyway I started to make a list of what I thought was necessary but am struggling with needs over wants. This is my first boat so I thought I would ask the more experienced sailors what they thought. Our sailing plans include water sailing">blue water sailing. The boat is a double ender which looks like it may have some issues with gear. So please let me know what you think.


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It's pretty common for new boats to be built without electronics. This leaves the buyer free to choose what he or she likes or wants.

Some folks are minimalists and will cruise with only compass, charts and a sextant while others will have networked chart plotters, depth sounders, radar, AIS transmit and receive and a VHF transceiver.

What you choose depends on your financial situation and what you think you will need. If money is not a big hindrance, it's better to have something and not need it than to need something and not have it.

[Ex-Calif]

Just updating my list based on other great input. What is deemed nice to have versus essential is largely a personal choice.

So this is turning into a laundry list of everything one could add...

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

I'd be happy to help spend your money...

Power -
120amp alternator on motor
500+Watts of solar W/ MPPT controller
500+ a/h of house batteries - lead acid self watering or lithium
BMV 702 battery monitor
Smartgauge
Generator
40+ Amp charger

Communication
VHF DSC
AIS transceiver
HF radio
EPIRB
Satphone - Maybe Iridium Go
SPOT
Handheld VHF

Situation awareness -
Compass
Depth log
Speed Log
Wind Instruments
All on NMEA 2000 bus

Navigation
Twin Chartplotters >7inch
Planning PC at Nav station with CMap
Radar
All tied into the boat gauges and sensors
Handheld GPS backup

Lifestyle
- Autpilot
- Windlass
- Watermaker
- Washer/dryer
- Fridge/freezer
- Climate control - A/C & Heater
- Electric winches
- Entertainment system - TV, Stereo etc...

I probably missed a few things but hey, it's your money...

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

Lol! I am just trying to visualize how to get all the antennas, solar panels and wind generator on the back of a double ender?


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The only "long" antenna is the VHF and it can be on the mast (actually better because it's higher). On a sailboat, a 4' antenna on the mast is as good or better than an 8' antenna mounted on the deck. The GPS or chart plotter antenna can be mounted at deck height.

Now as for the solar panels and wind generator, they can make a boat look tacky. Or salty, take your pick.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

I am the one that chose the HC. It is sturdy and stable and I am not worried about knocking the keel off when as a novice I accidentally run into something. I like the traditional style. Yes getting it in and out of a berth is going to be a huge learning curve.

I commend your choice in boats. We obviously think alike when it comes to boat design and capabilities. I do hope you've got sufficient experience to make this choice though. I would not have the boat I have without having owned, and spent considerable time with, other cruising boats. There is no way I could know what I need without having been out learning by doing. This is why I always recommend new cruisers buy a cheap, well-found boat. Go out cruising with this boat for a while. That's the best way I know for learning what you actually need.

This all said, we are clearly in completely different financial worlds, which is why I've refrained from commenting on your other threads. You know yourself and your hubby's needs. I try not to talk about things I know nothing about -- try, but not always succeed .

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

I looked into wind vane steering just yesterday and at least the company I was looking at said the displacement was beyond their capacity. So more than likely that means autopilot.

I don't know which vane system you were looking at, but ones like Monitor or Aries use the boat's rudder, so it's certainly possible to get a vane.

[brookiesailor]

I was looking at the hydrovane. I will look into the others


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[brookiesailor]

Mike,
You do just fine. My experience in cruising is very limited. I do read a lot. Partially based on fear. I was 14 as crew on a yacht delivery from ny to Antigua via Bermuda. We left in a rush because the captain (who was plastered) said it was bad luck to leave on holloween. So we set off at 11:30 pm and ran headlong into a storm and ended up having to heave to for a time. I was seasick and scared. My dad was so sick I didn't see him for the rest of the trip. The boat, though beautiful, was not very friendly. I stood my watches and kept my duties and in the end I really loved it. I just think that there are more comfortable boats in a blow and that is important to me


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[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

I was looking at the hydrovane. I will look into the others

Here's a good place to look.

http://selfsteer.com/

I'm a tad confused, wouldn't be the first or last...

You have a choice between boat A or boat B and the difference in cost and then choice of boat is only the electronics?

And you don't know which electronics you want or need?

Regardless of the boats and the $$ involved, IMHO that seems to be a kinda backwards selection methodology.

At best, one would compare the cost of boat A bare with X electronics compared to boat B with the same X electronics.

This is what any consultant/engineer/logic would suggest is a fair comparison.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. And I've read the whole thread.

I guess a "compare apples to apples" is what I'm saying.

Then you can start inputting the cost to get each boat to where you want or need it to be.

Good luck.

[a64pilot]

One thing you may think of,
I think you'll spend at least 100K on electronics, other stuff and installation. Probably windlass and ground tackle too?
Good thing is you get to spec everything the way YOU want it, I'm sort of doing a similar thing, as I bought essentially a "stripped" boat and am re-fitting it to my liking, but I'm doing all the work and it will be spread out over at least the next year.
Then truthfully there will be "bugs" that have to be worked out, but don't despair, all complex interconnected systems will have bugs, nature of the beast. But do prepare for some extensive shake down before starting out, or delay installation until the boat is where it will stay, that way the installer will be around to fix things.

There are all kinds of decision you will have to make, some you may not have thought about, like where do you mount the RADAR?

In my opinion, which is of course only my opinion, but your wanting a Luxury boat, and that sort of means all those nice to have things are in my opinion, sort of mandatory. Full AC and heat and the generator to run it, unlimited water supply and an ice machine for drinks.
Dinghy's, motors, davits, windlasses, refrigeration, multiple AC units, generator and a full suite of electronics, watermaker,ground tackle etc, ain't cheap. I know as I plan most of that stuff myself. Heck you'll have 4K in just an Autoprop or Maxprop alone

[a64pilot]

Other than the money aspect, I believe you have bumped into the reason why many buy a boat that is already outfitted and has been shaken out.
Although I have never had a house built, I have to assume it's a similar situation, and my understanding is building a house often cause Martial strife, it's so stressful.

There has to be advisers that you can hire that will do all of this for you?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

My experience in cruising is very limited. I do read a lot. Partially based on fear.

I suggest that fear is poor basis on which to make just about any decision. It's hard to offer broad advice in online forums, and it's even unwiser to accept such advice, but I really do wonder if you're jumping in too hard, too fast, and too deep with the purchase of a brand new boat of this kind of specific design.

My personal experience (which may not apply to anyone else) is that cruising for a number of years with a few previous boats taught me a lot about what I actually need, and want, in a cruising boat. Many of the things I thought were important turned out not to be so, and some things that I didn't even think of became very apparent with actual experience. I'm not talking about just chartering, but actual long-duration cruising with a boat I owned.

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

I was looking at the hydrovane. I will look into the others

I love the idea of an auxiliary rudder-style windvane. If I were looking at new ones I'd consider the Hydrovane, plus ones like the Cape Horn. But if your boat really is too massive for this type, then look hard at the servo pendulum systems. They don't have the advantage of being an auxiliary rudder, but they do use the mother ship's steering mechanism, so can steer just about anything. We have an Aries on our heavy displacement (30,000#) double-ender. Works great.

[brookiesailor]

Stu,
I have the choice between two boats. I am currently located in dubai for 18 more months

Boat A
Costs $850,000 and includes some electronics but not all
Is located in either us or England
Is modern and some amenities can be added (w/d)
Fin keel
Delivery of boat to us or uk
Lots of support

Boat B
Costs $450,000 and includes no electronics
Located in Thailand or possibly Croatia
Is full keel traditional double ender
Limited on upgrades
Delivery to thailand/Croatia
Limited support

Problem one.
By the time the boat is completed where am I likely to be?
I have a house in the US so taking delivery of boat A is easy, trying to figure out how to get boat B from Thailand to the U.S. More difficult but not impossible
Scenerio two is we are still here in dubai.
Boat A would stay in the states and I would use it during the summer
Boat B would be brought here and we can use it all year round

Problem two
Boat B having electronics shipped in and installed and arranging for it all (might have to spend some time in Thailand...darn)
Where do you put the iridium dome?

Problem three
If I buy boat B I will feel like a heel because I have been talking to boat A for a number of years.

Problem four
If I buy boat A I can roll all the costs into the sales price and get a loan for the total.
Buy boat B and some of the costs will be out of pocket.

In truth I still think boat B is the better option. But I am the minority share holder.


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