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Old 05-03-2015, 08:49   #46
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Re: Have to haves and wants

Is boat B an option, can you have it fitted out there where you are?
I'm asking if you can have it professionally delivered, then fitted out while you are there to supervise and learn, plus I feel real sure a manufacturer really is good at just that, not fitting out.

One thing I'm thinking is just possibly this won't be your last boat, leave some room money wise to buy a different one in a couple of years after your tastes solidify, plus if it can be fitted out where you are, then you can do at least some sailing and determine more of what your desires really are, and it can be done at your pace, heck you can still be adding things a couple of years after you have her, no requirement to get everything right away, or is there?
I know sometimes you only have one shot, depends of course on your Husbands desires and his level of tolerance for aggravations.
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Old 05-03-2015, 09:00   #47
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Re: Have to haves and wants

I'm with a previous poster who expected a new boat of that size be fully equipped with all new everything. That counts come time to sell. It may take you time to learn to use it all, but that's ok. It will be there when you're ready, or need it. A massive install during build would be a great deal easier and less costly than doing it piece meal. Plus, all of the electronics would be of the same age and talk to each other, eliminating a variety of problems.
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Old 05-03-2015, 09:35   #48
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Re: Have to haves and wants

If you are buying a boat in Thailand and want to eventually go to the Pacific then leave the boat in Thailand and do some coastal stuff there. Lovely sailing up and down that coastline! Then head south past Malaysia and Indonesia and you get to Micronesia and the Pacific. Wonderful!

We use

Inside and Navigation Lights - Essential
Fridge - Have done without one for three years but we are currently in colder climate
VHF - Mandatory and a handheld backup is worthwhile
GPS - Mandatory and a handheld backup is worthwhile
Iridium Phone - Weather and e-mail (plus it is much smaller than SSB)
Depth Sounder and Log - Need to know depth and speed
Laptop - For e-mail and chartplotting
Radar - Supplements your charts for distance-off when the charts are wrong, tracks squalls at night (not really essential)
AIS - not really essential

Electricity - absolutely essential. Match your battery bank to your expected consumption and think about solar/wind power
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Old 05-03-2015, 09:36   #49
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Re: Have to haves and wants

I went through this last year with a new boat. For what it is worth I now regret some of the economies I made. As other posters have said, getting everything installed during build is easier and you end up looking as if everything should be there. If you retrofit then it can all look a bit of an after thought.

One thing I did do was to add a second small chart plotter instead of a nav station repeater. I did this because
  1. It was cheaper (I bought a Garmin 7" plotter)
  2. It is independent (it has an integral aerial) and I specified that it should NOT be integrated into anything else on board.
  3. I can use it with the main instruments turned off which makes it economical on power if I use it as an anchor drag alarm (with display on minimum brightness)
  4. It uses a different charting system so better chance of avoiding charting errors and better availability of charts - particularly if you are going to get some from ebay. - I already had a good selection of charts from my previous boat and it came with full UK charts pre-loaded.
If you wanted to go down the line of getting a dealer to fit the instruments later then something like the Garmin with a separate depth instrument would give you a decent working minimum. The plotter will give you SOG and CMG , add depth and that is pretty well a minimum. A VHF of some form is pretty important but you could get away with a hand held for a short passage but as others have said it depends on where and how long your passages are before you get the full kit installed. Also are you going to sail short handed? If you do you will need some sort of self steering. If it is to be an autopilot then you might as well get the whole lot installed and integrated from the start.


TV - we don't watch TV on the boat but we do watch quite a lot of DVDs. On our last boat we watched on a laptop but in the end I succumbed and went for the built in option. Expensive but so much nicer when comes to settling down to watch a film. Again how long do you plan to spend on the boat at a time. We spend the summer on the boat but if we were going to weekend and holiday cruise I would make do with a laptop.
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Old 05-03-2015, 11:58   #50
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Re: Have to haves and wants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
My personal experience (which may not apply to anyone else) is that cruising for a number of years with a few previous boats taught me a lot about what I actually need, and want, in a cruising boat.

Ours is a similar experience. Took us two previous boats to get it right on this one. Both of those were very good boats. This one suits us better.

And NOW I know what we want in the next boat (The Boat) if there is one, and why.

FWIW, we ran this one for about 3 years (with OK electronics PO had installed) before I decided what the target electronics suite should be. Some of that was suite extension, some was redundancy in a few areas, most was updating (B&W to color, old radios to DSC capable, etc.).

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Old 05-03-2015, 12:05   #51
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Re: Have to haves and wants

Quote:
Originally Posted by brookiesailor View Post
Right now I am currently in dubai, but home base is louisiana. The boat, if we buy it, is in Thailand. To get to us it would require a combination of cargo ship or cargo ship and sailing. Depending on where we land it. (Pirates) After that it will be coastal sailing for a touch as we get to know the boat and until hubby semi retires, then it is off to the pacific, where I would like to see Fiji and others.

The electronics can be bought in stages with the have to's right away. As I see it now the have to's are:
Vhf (ais optional)
Wind finder/depth finder/log
Autopilot
GPS

Like to:
Chart plotter
Iridium

But I am not sure if I am missing something


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Looks to me like your must haves are about right. Used electronics are often not much good anyway. The only expensive thing on yur list is the Autopilot really.
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Old 05-03-2015, 12:30   #52
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Re: Have to haves and wants

It reminds me of going on board a very expensive Oyster at a boat show many years ago and then being told we had to immediately leave as a cheque was being written. I can still hear the young pretty wife gushing about how the cutlery drawer was lined with baize, whilst her 'grand-father' wrote the cheque. My own belief is that if people have to ask such questions then they really should be considering getting professional crew and learning to sail. It could be the posting was a mischievous wind up. At that particular boat show we also heard a classic: 'If you cut three feet off the keel you would reduce the boats draft'. The saleman's polite retort was that 'if you cut three feet from the keel the draft would actually increase by approximately 70 feet'. This reply was totally lost on the person initiating the commentary.
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Old 05-03-2015, 13:39   #53
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Re: Have to haves and wants

Sadly it is routine, actually accepted that new boats come with nothing, and everything is added either aftermarket or from an options list. It is so rare that I only know of one builder (Dashew) that actually builds boats with all the equipment assumed as part of the purchase price.

Personally I am a big believer in spreadsheets, and I think you need one here. A is stuff B is boat 1, C is boat 2, with the cells filled in with either 0 (meaning it has it) or a dollar amount of how much it is to add it. My guess is that the prices of the two boats will start to converge pretty quickly. This stuff is expensive to buy, and expensive to instal, and frankly in a boat this size I wouldn't do without it.

My list of what to install is long, and has a lot to do with other options. A large water tank is nice, but less necessary if you have a water maker for instance. Radar is great and on a boat this size is close to mandatory, but if you nstall an ais transponder may not be required. Large battery banks are great, but if you install a generator and AC and plan to use it every night (we did) then a smaller bank is acceptable (great time to run the water maker as well). Frankly most pieces of equipment can be done without, but I wouldn't consider setting off without a lot of them.

For my short list on a boat in this range...

Mandatory
Autopilot
Generator
Water maker
Radar
Up and down chart plotters
Up and down instruments (wind/speed/depth)
AC
Electric or hydraulic winches - (at least on primaries and halyard)
Electric/hydraulic windlass
High quality stereo
One ridiculously oversized SHHP anchor - proper sizing is large enough to make people laugh plus one step
VHF - at least one installed and two hand held.
Steering compass and hand bearing
Handheld GPS (2)
Fridge/freezer
EPIRB
PLB - one per crew
Life raft
Dinghy - ability to run at >15kn a plus, dedicated storage
Large inverter (to run 110 accessories not heavy loads)
Feathering prop

Depends
Wind steering - nice, less so if regular generator use is assumed
Solar panels - see wind steering
AIS - not mandatory but it would be there, and it's cheap
SSB - becoming less valuable but I would probably have it
Internet weather/comms - probably, certainly if not then a SSB is mandatory
Sat TV - Depends on dish space

Toys
Forward looking sonar
Plb locator system
Ice maker

I haven't priced a list like this out in years, but I would expect well over $100k, and likely closer to $200k installed properly. On a new boat some of it has to be done during commissioning, others can be added down the line. But taking off large expensive winches to add larger more expensive winches is silly, the same for a windlass, generator, ect.

it has been mentioned before and I know you have responded to those comments, but buying new in a boat like this is a huge financial loss. It may be worth it to you and if so great. But it is important to know how big a loss it is. Without all or substantially all this equipment on board a used boat won't sell, but you still have to eat the depreciation based on the new boat price. So on the $450k boat plus $150k let's assume you are all in at $600k. The boat two years old is going to be worth maybe $400k. For a loss of right at 1/3 of the purchase price (including options).

If I was in this market frankly I would snatch 1980 Deerfoot Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com without thinking of it. This is Steve Dashew's family boat, and has been impeccably and professionally maintained since new, and refit on a rolling basis. I might still drop $100k on a refit, in line with the above list, but feel pretty confident that when I went to sell it I would get every dime I had in it out.
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Old 05-03-2015, 14:22   #54
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Re: Have to haves and wants

brookie, Stumble's right. You need to get more organized. Not sayin' that you're not, but you have a BIG uphill climb.

I completely understand your last post, and understood it from the get-go.

1. You are comparing apples & oranges. A $450K vs $850K boat? You are starting out from a completely off-the-wall premise/comparison. Regardless of where the boats are and what they have on them, although I understand the REALITY of the cost of moving one boat. It's a reality to you.

But think of these issue:

No boat, regardless of cost, is going to reap the $$ benefits of $100K in upgrades. A $450K boat with $100K of new electronics and windlasses and stuff will NOT equal a $550K boat.

It's a BIG world out there, and since you are living outside the US you don't have the "only in America" mindset some of those "provincials" have.

However, that said, there simply HAVE TO BE more boats for you to consider than ONLY those two which are halfway around the world from you and each other.

If one of my clients was doing that comparison, I'd tell him he wasn't starting from a valid premise, or was limiting his search to such a finite degree to begin with that a VALID, REASONABLE comparison would never make sense.

2. Try Stumble's approach. I once had a client who had 11 buildings needing various degrees of work, but he had NO budget and didn't know where to start. I built a spreadsheet with every single line item of work I could think of for each building, and made two columns: lowball guess, high end guess. The two totals were essentially 2:1 ratio. As work was defined, bid and built, we replaced the estimates with the real world pricing and the differences in the totals reduced.

You have a similar challenge. Make lists. Start making decisions and go from there.

For example: AIS and VHF radios. VHF radios aren't sold without DSC these days, so it ain't an option. What IS important is to have a GPS signal to the DSC radio so that when the sh*i hits the fan when you push the red button it will have your position. Sure, you could buy a separate GPS or use your main GPS but it would require wiring between them, which has confused even super smart skippers on this and other boating forums. So, ITWMB, I'd buy a VHF DSC radio with built-in GPS, separate from my main chartplotter.

AIS? Everything, I mean everything I've read here by skippers I trust (from reading their thoughtful and helpful posts) is that an AIS transciever (send & receive) is FAR superior.

Radar? My good friend in Maine says if you don't have BOTH radar and AIS, BOTH, you're being foolish and endangering yourself. This is from a guy who used to go out in fishing boats in fog so thick....with nothing but a compass. He wrote a very good discussion on the need for both in dense fog. Some boats don't have AIS or have it on!!! See, Greg and i disagree already!!! But you may never plan to sail in those conditions.

This is starting to sound like "Your boat, your choice." Which it always is.

Now, how to do that becomes a personal choice: a standalone AIS, built-in or connected to EITHER a laptop with OpenCPM or a Garmin (or other brand) chartplotter.

Now, you see, you start getting into the realm of issues that, as Mike says, is based on your experiences and goals. NOT OURS.

And since you don't have any experiences, there is simply a LIMIT as to how much help a forum like this can give you.

You will read conflicting input, from two or three or more very trustworthy skippers, and NONE OF THEM WILL BE WRONG.

You can do all the reading you want until your eyes fall out. I read this great forum almost everyday. I have learned a lot. But I have learned that the ONLY person who can make these decisions is me, and I have 45 years of coastal sailing under my belt and I STILL have questions.

Take a deep breath, and start a spreadsheet.

Also start looking around for other boats, 'cuz if you keep limiting it to these two boats, I predict you have all sorts of troubles down the road.

There was a thread here recently where the woman asked us for advice, IIRC it was comparison of two boats or something like that. When replies came back, she said he wouldn't read forums, just wanted / requested / required (!!!) printed catalogs! Sheez.

Look, brookie, you are NOT a minority shareholder.

You are AN EQUAL IN ALL RESPECTS shareholder.

You may need to begin to start convincing boss-man of that.

'Cuz if you don't start now, it ain't gonna happen "out there."

Good luck.
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Old 05-03-2015, 15:51   #55
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Re: Have to haves and wants

Stu,
You make some very good points. First the spreadsheet. I will start working on that this weekend. Second is that you take a cheep boat and add a ton of electronics to it you are in no way going to recoup your costs even if you sell it the next day. Lastly as I went to sleep last night I was thinking about cars. I have found in the past that the cheaper model isn't cheaper when you add all the things you want. So there are sometimes when cheaper doesn't pay.

I could have the boast delivered here to Dubai and installed. But it is likely to be costly in this land of opulence.

It is 3 am and I woke up for a glass of water so having done that... Good night


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Old 05-03-2015, 16:24   #56
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Re: Have to haves and wants

Brookie,
You're going to get a lot of answers / lists of items, along with lots of nomenclature / gibberish that might confuse you...
And, I will do my part to both answer you succinctly, and confuse you some too... But, I won't complicate your discussion by mentioning other items/systems (except for electrical system), such as watermakers, refrig/freezer, air cond, windlasses, washer/dryers, etc. etc...as they don't really fit into the "electronics" category!!!
And further, while I'm not shy about sharing, I'm going to try to list items/systems in specific order based both on my experience and on the vast majority of what current sailors/cruisers actually use/need....not based on what's cool!!!


But, first, I'd like to share some sage "Electronics Advice" with you....that, if you actually trust me and believe it, WILL save you many sleepless nights and many dollars, as well as make both you and hubby envied by many...

{My apologies for this next paragraph, as I do NOT wish it to sound boastful in anyway....but rather just as an explanation of how I (and others) have come to the conclusions we have....from many decades of experience with this stuff, installing it, working on it, as well as using it....on the water...

FYI, I personally started my cruising/sailing life as a kid in the 1960's, and have ~ 45 years experience in offshore cruising/sailing....but most important here is that I have > 40 years experience in electronics / marine electronics, and have made my living in electronics / communications for > 30 years...}

Okay, here it is:
1) The installation, wiring, hook-up, commissioning, programming, and weather-proofing of connections, of almost all marine electronics is the single most important criteria in making it work well, work as designed/spec'd to, work reliably, and interact well with you (and other electronics on-board)....

Yes, hi-quality gear from reputable manufacturers is almost always better than the discount-store /poor quality gear, but poor-quality gear properly installed almost always works better than high-quality gear poorly-installed...
(I hope that makes sense?)

The above is almost universally accepted as fact by most in the marine electronics world....although many who work for others are usually loath to publically admit the above is true...(I've been self-employed for > 30 years, so I have nobody to answer to, except for clients/customers!)



2) Sage Electronics Advice, point #2....
Unfortunately most boat manufacturers do NOT do a good job installing, wiring, commissioning, etc. electronics....and most don't really have a clue how much of this stuff works, nor how it is supposed to work, nor work together, etc...
(and, please understand that this applies to even those selling $million dollar+ boats....it's not a "production boat" thing....with a few exceptions like Hinckley, Morris, Swan...it applies to most manufacturers...yes even to HC and in my experience Passport as well...so some contract this out to pros...)

Some boat manufacturers contract out this work to others (marine electronics dealers/installers), and/or some leave it to their dealers/reps to do it, or contract it out....
If you get lucky, you get someone that is actually interested in getting things done correctly, rather than just getting it done...

But, if you are planning on spending the money that you mention for a boat, you can PAY someone to consult with you....discuss all of these things with you and hubby...make professional recommendations based on YOUR needs and wants, and you can bother them with 100's of questions day / night...
If you like 'em, and think they're giving you good advice/recommendations, many consultants will also be happy to project manage the wiring, install, commissioning, and programming of all your electronics....
Typical costs for just consulting, is minimum $1000, and $500/day, plus any reasonable travel expenses....
Project management is generally done on a contract basis, you decide how much you can afford vs. how much you need/want done....
(although I do NOT deal with marine electronics professionally, it's just for fun.....electronics consulting is a large part of my business for most of the past 15+ years...)


~~~~~~~~~~~~


Okay, now that the above is out-of-the-way....how about I get around to actually answering your questions??
Quote:
Originally Posted by brookiesailor View Post
I am looking at purchasing a new boat. I am interested in this one model and when looking over the spec sheet I noticed it didn't list any electronics. So I contacted the builder and found out that in fact there are no electronics included, not even a radio. Weird. Anyway I started to make a list of what I thought was necessary but am struggling with needs over wants. This is my first boat so I thought I would ask the more experienced sailors what they thought. Our sailing plans include blue water sailing. The boat is a double ender which looks like it may have some issues with gear. So please let me know what you think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brookiesailor View Post
Right now I am currently in dubai, but home base is louisiana. The boat, if we buy it, is in Thailand. To get to us it would require a combination of cargo ship or cargo ship and sailing. Depending on where we land it. (Pirates) After that it will be coastal sailing for a touch as we get to know the boat and until hubby semi retires, then it is off to the pacific, where I would like to see Fiji and others.

The electronics can be bought in stages with the have to's right away. As I see it now the have to's are:
Vhf (ais optional)
Wind finder/depth finder/log
Autopilot
GPS

Like to:
Chart plotter
Iridium

But I am not sure if I am missing something
Brookie, with the understanding that you may literally need NO electronics at all, as many have sailed for decades (both coastally and around the world) without even electricity on-board let alone radios/electronics....
A good steering compass, a watch, and even some old-out-dated charts will get you around the world!!!

So, with that caveat behind us....here are some thoughts / recommendations for the "must haves", for most sailors/cruisers...in order of importance/preference (which would vary, depending on exactly where/how you're planning on sailing/cruising):

1) Marine VHF-DSC-FM, with a good masthead antenna, fed w/ low-loss cable (properly weather-proofed)...
(and a spare antenna and short length of cable w/ pre-assembled connectors...)


2) Depth-sounder, accurate and calibrated....
(along with a lead-line)


3) Autopilot or "self-steering"....an almost absolute "must have" for long-range cruising, ocean crossing, etc....but, for coastal cruising this can be way down on the "want" list....


4) GPS....depending on the model, usually multiple GPS's....
(and spare batteries for the handheld GPS's...)


5) EPIRB, properly registered (updated every 2 years) and tested annually...

EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds


6) Handheld VHF-DSC-FM radio, w/ spare battery...


And, that's pretty much it for the "must haves"....the list above will get you around the world safely....all other electronics are in the "nice to have" / "want" category...
(of course we are assuming that you'll have the boat equipped with all the required nav lights, etc. so that is not really part of this "electronics" discussion...)



And, in the "nice to have" / "want" category:

7) Weather info / forecast access equipment...

WeFax, Voice, NAVTEX, and SafetyNet reception equipment, such as HF radio / Marine SSB, NAVTEX rec, INMARSAT-C, etc...

Offshore / Hi-Seas Weather data / forecasts

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY


[I'd also include a good ext. Wi-Fi set-up, and/or an ext cellular/3g/4g/LTE antenna set-up, here in this category....as these can be very useful for accessing weather info/forecasts when in port, anchored, and/or close-to shore sailing coastally...as well as allow easy / cheap e-mail and phone connectivity to the outside world when in port or in near coastal waters...]




8) Collision avoidance electronics, such as AIS and Radar...
a) Class B AIS is getting inexpensive enough and will soon become commonplace, but I doubt will become ubiquitous unless there is gov't mandates (let's hope not)....so, although it's not a "must have", having a Class B AIS transponder is good idea...

b) Radar is useful in some places where visibility is compromised or there are many vessels/obstructions to navigate around, and darn near a necessity in someplaces (i.e. FOG)....but in other places (Caribbean, etc.) is never needed...
So, depending on "where"/"how" you sail, radar can be near the top of the "want" list, or on the "never need it" list...



9) Long range radio communications equipment....such as Marine SSB (HF-DSC-SSB radio)...
For most offshore sailors / cruisers in remote locales, this is also part of their "weather access equipment" (see #7 above)....so, you may already have this covered above...
But, once you are out of cellular/mobile phone range (a few miles offshore at best), this is your only link to the outside world....for weather, communications, telephone connections, emergencies/distress calling, contacting other boats, e-mails, etc....without this, you're on-your-own...

New HF-DSC Explanation and LIVE Demonstration Videos

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX


Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use/properly-install SSB)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


Icom M-802 Instr Videos(basic-adv) & LIVE DSC-Distress Call

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...rC-8QKVyMb4tVr




10) Second EPIRB, and/or PLB's...


11) Chartplotter and electronic charts (but this is typically incorporated into a "radar" unit, and is covered in item #8 above...)


12) Some type of "sailing instruments", wind and boat speed instruments....
(although having a "boat speed" sensor can be very important to understand how the current is effecting you...the set/drift....and I find it VERY helpful....the unfortunate fact is, that most new sailors/cruisers don't use this info much...)


13) Some type of "sat comm" gear....
Although, for some serious offshore sailors and round-the-world types, an INMARSAT-C terminal (as described above in the weather access equipment category, #6 above), will have already been fitted from the list above....there are many less serious cruisers who may find a handheld sat phone (especially one with a "docking station" and ext ant.), such as an Iridium phone to be a nice thing to have....as it can provide a second way to make phone calls / get e-mails when at sea, as well as serve as a back-up means of accessing weather info/forecasts....


14) Entertainment electronics....such as a nice stereo (w/ cockpit speakers mounted WELL AWAY from any compasses!), TV, DVD Player, digital cameras, etc...



[Please take note that items, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14....can be very easily rearranged, depending on both personal tastes and where/how you'll be sailing/cruising... ]


BTW, you didn't mention anything about your electrical system, alternative energy system, etc...
BUT...
But, understand that ALL of this stuff needs electricity to work!!!
And, the more "electronics" you have, the more "electricity" you'll need!!
Please consider this as more "sage electronics advice"....you cannot design an electronics system without also considering your electrical system, power consumption, and generating/storage capabilities!!!


BTW, this post caught my eye...
Quote:
Originally Posted by brookiesailor View Post
One of my issues with the double ender is where to put all the antennas and stuff. From the pictures I have seen it ends up looking like a giant jungle gym
FYI Brookie, while this is a problem that many first notice on "double-enders", it does effect many boats with wide sterns as well.....most of the reason for this is the owners and/or installers NOT designing a "system", but rather just ordering stuff and installing it in a hap-hazard way...
Those that take their time to design/install things properly don't have antennas like aircraft carriers, but DO have lots of electronics...



I do hope this helps you out some....
If you need more clarification, just ask...

Fair winds...

John

P.S. Unlike I usually do, I didn't have the time to read all of the posts here in this thread, so if some of what I wrote is redundant, sorry!!!
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Old 05-03-2015, 16:53   #57
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Re: Have to haves and wants

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
The only "long" antenna is the VHF and it can be on the mast (actually better because it's higher). On a sailboat, a 4' antenna on the mast is as good or better than an 8' antenna mounted on the deck. The GPS or chart plotter antenna can be mounted at deck height.

Now as for the solar panels and wind generator, they can make a boat look tacky. Or salty, take your pick.
Just to clarify - You do know that antenna length is determined by radio frequency range right?

Lower frequency = longer antenna? So the HF is actually the "long" antenna.
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Old 05-03-2015, 17:05   #58
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Re: Have to haves and wants

Quote:
Originally Posted by brookiesailor View Post
Boat A
Costs $850,000 and includes some electronics but not all
Is located in either us or England
Is modern and some amenities can be added (w/d)
Fin keel
Delivery of boat to us or uk
Lots of support

Boat B
Costs $450,000 and includes no electronics
Located in Thailand or possibly Croatia
Is full keel traditional double ender
Limited on upgrades
Delivery to thailand/Croatia
Limited support
If you haven't decided on a boat, generating lists of electronics is a bit premature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brookiesailor View Post

Problem one.
By the time the boat is completed where am I likely to be?
I have a house in the US so taking delivery of boat A is easy, trying to figure out how to get boat B from Thailand to the U.S. More difficult but not impossible
Scenerio two is we are still here in dubai.
Boat A would stay in the states and I would use it during the summer
Boat B would be brought here and we can use it all year round
It sounds like you timeline is not defined.

Why not get a nice $180k boat in Dubai or nearby and sail it until you leave Dubai.

Then sell it when you leave Dubai and have whatever it is you want delivered to the US and outfitted there. I mean ultimately you are going to the US.
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Old 05-03-2015, 17:13   #59
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Re: Have to haves and wants

Quote:
Originally Posted by brookiesailor View Post
Stu,
I have the choice between two boats. I am currently located in dubai for 18 more months

Boat A
Costs $850,000 and includes some electronics but not all
Is located in either us or England
Is modern and some amenities can be added (w/d)
Fin keel
Delivery of boat to us or uk
Lots of support

Boat B
Costs $450,000 and includes no electronics
Located in Thailand or possibly Croatia
Is full keel traditional double ender
Limited on upgrades
Delivery to thailand/Croatia
Limited support

Problem one.
By the time the boat is completed where am I likely to be?
I have a house in the US so taking delivery of boat A is easy, trying to figure out how to get boat B from Thailand to the U.S. More difficult but not impossible
Scenerio two is we are still here in dubai.
Boat A would stay in the states and I would use it during the summer
Boat B would be brought here and we can use it all year round

Problem two
Boat B having electronics shipped in and installed and arranging for it all (might have to spend some time in Thailand...darn)
Where do you put the iridium dome?

Problem three
If I buy boat B I will feel like a heel because I have been talking to boat A for a number of years.

Problem four
If I buy boat A I can roll all the costs into the sales price and get a loan for the total.
Buy boat B and some of the costs will be out of pocket.


In truth I still think boat B is the better option. But I am the minority share holder.


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Hello.
I have read all of the comments in this thread. And I have read several other threads/discussions started by the OP. In several of those, the same issue come up: (I will paraphrase) "I want this. My Husband wants something else. We must wait."

It seems that the husband wants NEW and there is no real rush to buy the boat now, since the ability to take off for a long term cruise is perhaps a few years away.

Given all of those facts AND considering those I bolded up above, and considering the real cost of adding a bunch of gear to a typical "new, but bare" boat may be $100K or some high expenditure just to get the boat ready to cruise, AND given that the boat you have mentioned (HC48) is a "traditional double ender" AND it has the issue of how to put davits and solar etc.. I come to this sincere suggestion:

I suggest that for that same budget ($850K+) you could purchase a boat that would likely satisfy you and your husband AND it would have a potentially higher resale value in the future if or when you decide to sell it (e.g. after your Pacific cruising). In my view, this makes it a much smarter purchase and a better value in the long run.

In other threads I have mentioned or suggested a Hans Christian boat when someone asked about traditional styled boats, because I like their traditional styling. BUT, I was only thinking of what is available on the used market for that styling of boat.

IF I had a big budget (your mentioned $750K - $1Million) and if I could buy anything I wanted, I would NOT purchase an old or older Hans Christian boat, nor would I purchase a NEW HC48.

Again, I like the Hans Christian line of boats, I like their styling, and I would love to have one (if given, or affordable), BUT, if I had the budget you mention, I would NOT buy a Hans Christian boat today (new or used).

Why?
While I like traditional looking boats, I happen to think that there are newer designed boats that would be more fun to sail and more comfortable (e.g. more roomy) and more convenient (e.g. having davits and easy access to the water via transom steps and to the dinghy and lighter and brighter with more "windows" to see the places I will cruise to and where I anchor) and more comfortable on the water (no heeling) in most conditions and more roomy for a given LOA.

So, this may seem like a big contradiction, but it is a sincere difference of opinion, given the new parameters (a higher budget).

My Suggestion is for a particular model of a high end catamaran, (i.e. not just any big cat, and not a Gunboat… ) that is very well equipped WITH the gear that cruisers want AND it has been designed for a couple to sail easily and has a "couple oriented" layout AND it is "high end luxury" for that size.

The boat I would buy with your budget?

The Antares 44i.

These cats are designed as a "couples blue water cruiser" catamaran. There are faster cats, sleeker looking cats, and bigger cats (I would not need bigger if just a couple) and much bigger cats (used charter), but I have not seen anything comparable to these (at the price point for new).

They have a high resale value (New = $900K, Used = $750K or less for older units). They are relatively "young" or recent design and build cats. They are NOT built for charter and so their whole design orientation is different. Since you have the budget that could purchase one of these either new or used, this will give you and your husband the choice. NOTE: The line is popular and so you have to order these boats ahead of time, as their production gets booked up a couple of years in advance. That may be perfect timing for your plans/needs if you consider that you really can't take off for a few years.

Frankly, I would buy one that was about 3 years old IF I could grab one IF it came on the market, but that is because I would want another owner to take the big "depreciation" hit for me. I have watched these boats for a year, and the used market for them is hot, with used boats (44i) listed and sold VERY quickly to people who want one ASAP. On the other hand, some Hans Christian boats will be on the used market for years (hard to sell), because the market for older designs (1980s or earlier was when the HC line was really developed and designed), slower, heavier, and expensive to build (lots of teak), is shrinking, while the market for nice cats is growing.

IF I were your husband and wanted a NEW boat and would only accept a NEW boat (less likely to need upgrades and repairs), then I would buy the new model, and be happy and concentrate on cruising, not boat refit.

This boat, when sold new, comes with everything you need to take off. It comes (standard equipment) with a great electronics package, water maker, etc. You can see the entire "standard" package with what is included listed and the new price here:
Antares 44i Catamaran: Price and Equipment List

Here is a link to two pages showing a lot of photos of the boat:

External
Antares 44 Catamaran Exterior Pictures

Internal
Antares 44 Catamaran Interior Pictures


I looked at this boat (online) for some time and read everything on their site. I was impressed. Many things about THIS boat design fit what I would want in a boat (mono or cat) and if considering cats alone, it seemed to be the best fit for me and my taste and desires, but unfortunately not my budget.

I particularly like the use of "wood" in the interior (a visual feature of the HC boat line that is appealing) and the Galley looks great (I like to cook) AND the saloon looks like one of the nicest I have seen on a comparably sized cat. In my opinion, many cats look too "plastic" in the interior spaces. I suppose my taste means I would like to see a boat look like a "Yacht" (nice, luxury) if I were spending about $1Million on it (or something less for used).
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Disclaimer: While I am posting some links here and a strongly positive suggestion for a boat, I have NO connection of any kind to the boat brand or owners or sellers of that boat. I am merely posting what I feel would be the best possible choice given the parameters (budget), expressed needs, and my own taste.
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Old 05-03-2015, 17:44   #60
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Re: Have to haves and wants

I was waiting for the "cat" fight to start and don't disagree.

If I had $850 to spend I'd be after a catominium too.

Reading between Brookie's lines - They like nice stuff, they want all the doo-dads and gee-gaws.

cats - especially big ones - are more adaptable to transplanting one's shore life to the sea.

Plenty of space for "stuff" like aircon, washer/dryer etc.

Plenty of space for the power to run them - i.e. solar on top.
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