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Old 14-04-2013, 12:36   #16
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

Hi Alchemy,

Liferaft is on the list it will be the last thing bought due to service life etc. I think I said that I have at least 3 major purchases to make, life raft being one for sure. The reason I brought this topic up is that I have never considered a beacon. ( Well my boat did come with an older epirb beacon)

So when I look and compare at the products available I see the old standby epirbs and the new kid on the block the personal beacons.

For sure falling overboard is one scenario. Also as I posted here I am also concerned about; outboard dieing in a remote location and being swept out to sea, marooned on an island out of radio contact. My sailing has been done on a coast with a very very sparse population, with many dead areas for VHF, and a very harsh environment. My new cruising areas in the South Pacific reflects my desire to stay away from crowds, so same but different.

So from a buyers standpoint what is the difference? Or are epirbs like music cd's, a brilliant advancement in their day, but now dated and surpassed by a newer format provider? Unlike the Luddittes who faced a change after hundreds of years of stability, change now happens very quickly. Is this such a scenerio?
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Old 14-04-2013, 13:01   #17
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I want to put this as gently as possible. SPOT devices are not SAR devices.
Any doubt read their website!

A SPOT will work fine on the deck of a large sailboat when it is high and dry. But there have been numerous cases of these devices failing in hostile conditions. They cannot survive multi-day kayak expedition type races are you will to bet your life on a device that has a history of failure? I've had one fail during a month long race.

IMHO a PLB is fine for coastal cruising- if they cannot get to me in 24 hours (PLB battery life) along the coast, then the budget cuts might be too deep

On the other hand, a full EPIRB is appropriate for those who wish to carry such a device further off shore.

Don't mean to sound hard headed, but depending on a SPOT to save your life could end poorly

Bill
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Old 14-04-2013, 13:10   #18
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

Hi Bill,

Never advocated for SPOT type devices. Asking about ARC type plb and Epirbs?
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Old 14-04-2013, 13:25   #19
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

NP
You are talking about sailing in an area that is massively large, sparsely popluated and you want to go to the more remote areas of it. If you feel you want to have a backup to be able to call for outside help, then a full EPIRB is the instrument. If you want some backup or more portable device, then you can also get a PLB if you want to spend the money. If you are halfway between the Galapagos and the Marquesas and end up in a raft with a PLB and don't get rescued within 24 hrs, you aren't going to get a lot of SAR fly over flights looking for you. If you are going to call in the cavalry into these remote areas, at least give them the tools to find you.
In the scope of outfitting a boat for the SP, the extra 200 or 300 bucks just isn't going to make any difference in your budget.
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Old 14-04-2013, 14:04   #20
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

To extend battery life, wouldn't you want to turn it off for short periods?
I don't know if they do it themselves, how often do they transmit?
Can't you buy extra batteries?
Even 48 hours does not seem like nearly enough time if you are adrift.
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Old 14-04-2013, 14:15   #21
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

DUH they are not emergency rescue devices but they DO have a program that is hooked into an emergency response network for 59.95usd per annum. is over and above the 100 dollar activation fee. i pay that, as do some souls i KNOW who DID have a RESCUE from SPOT and spots EMERGENCY PROGRAM....lol..look it up on the site--lol i have had emergency service from spot for 2 years now. isnt difficult to get it--you pay for it.

my friend had SAR RESCUE VIA SPOT. YES. IT IS DONE.

so far, with my old unit, the current lithium batteries have lasted for 1 1/2 years. is the kind of spot you must push the button your self. is not the newer unit with auto tracking that eats batteries like candy. i leave mine off when not in transit, unless i am dealing with reactivation or sending messages to my momma and family. they like knowing where i am.

the gods made ziplock plastic baggies for many reasons.....
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Old 14-04-2013, 14:49   #22
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
To extend battery life, wouldn't you want to turn it off for short periods?
I don't know if they do it themselves, how often do they transmit?
Can't you buy extra batteries?
Even 48 hours does not seem like nearly enough time if you are adrift.
..transmit a digital burst once every 50 seconds.

Particularly with a GPS enabled device, how far can you move in 50 seconds?
every 5 minutes seems frequent enough, so 5x the time, 5 days, not 24 hours.
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Old 14-04-2013, 15:22   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
DUH they are not emergency rescue devices but they DO have a program that is hooked into an emergency response network for 59.95usd per annum. is over and above the 100 dollar activation fee. i pay that, as do some souls i KNOW who DID have a RESCUE from SPOT and spots EMERGENCY PROGRAM....lol..look it up on the site--lol i have had emergency service from spot for 2 years now. isnt difficult to get it--you pay for it.

my friend had SAR RESCUE VIA SPOT. YES. IT IS DONE.

so far, with my old unit, the current lithium batteries have lasted for 1 1/2 years. is the kind of spot you must push the button your self. is not the newer unit with auto tracking that eats batteries like candy. i leave mine off when not in transit, unless i am dealing with reactivation or sending messages to my momma and family. they like knowing where i am.

the gods made ziplock plastic baggies for many reasons.....

I apologize if you viewed my post as offensive.

So let me understand this you are recommending to people that if they need to abandon ship in the middle of the night to be sure to take a plastic bag along?? If that works,for you great.

Me? I own a PLB and will upgrade to an EPIRB when I am confident enough to move up from coastal/Caribbean.

Zee- You can take your chances, I'll take mine.
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Old 14-04-2013, 15:29   #24
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

There are some jurisdictions where it is mandatory to carry an EPIRB (not just a PLB) - like here for example where an EPIRB is required for vessels more than two miles from land.

The legislation specifically excludes PLB from definition of EPIRB
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Old 14-04-2013, 15:35   #25
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

The argument is valid , ie between PLBs and EPIRBs, The advantage is that the EPIRB indicates vessel information, whereas PLBs databases are orientated to individuals. Furthermore not many countries even maintain PLB databses, so you have to rely on UK/USA database registration.

The battery life is far less relevant with the advent of GPS in the PLB. The location is picked up fast these days.

Note that only SOLAS approved EPRIB has a guaranteed 4 day battery, the leisure ones dont have to conform.

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Old 14-04-2013, 15:39   #26
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Why not just cut the umbilical cord with your nanny states? Refuse to have any ability to communicate with SAR. Die like real sailors or save your boat! Don't expect others to risk their lives to save your miserable skin!

The completed passages feel even more satisfying.....

And the incomplete passages where you drown halfway? Ah well....
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Old 14-04-2013, 15:43   #27
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

Is anyone aware of any good research that has actually probed the question of efficacy of these various tools? Now that we have real history (data) with EPIRBs and their technological cousins, I can envision a number of research questions which should be amenable to real investigation, not just anecdotal evidence.

- What are the rates of successful rescue via the various options (EPIRB, PLB, other?)
--> could look at number of units in use vs successful rescue
--> could look at number of emergency calls received vs sucessful rescue.

- What is the actual utilization rate? IOW, how often do they actually get used in emergency situations?
--> related to this, what is the rate of false alarm? (False positive)

- Are their geographic differences?
--> Global location? Distance from SAR resources? ... do these make a difference?

Debates often rage here on CF over the necessity (or not) of these tools. Surely we have enough data to actually start answering these questions.
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Old 14-04-2013, 15:44   #28
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

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Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
Why not just cut the umbilical cord with your nanny states? Refuse to have any ability to communicate with SAR. Die like real sailors or save your boat! Don't expect others to risk their lives to save your miserable skin!

The completed passages feel even more satisfying.....

And the incomplete passages where you drown halfway? Ah well....
I think John Rambo has an opening!!

Dave
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Old 14-04-2013, 15:53   #29
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Is anyone aware of any good research that has actually probed the question of efficacy of these various tools? Now that we have real history (data) with EPIRBs and their technological cousins, I can envision a number of research questions which should be amenable to real investigation, not just anecdotal evidence.

- What are the rates of successful rescue via the various options (EPIRB, PLB, other?)
--> could look at number of units in use vs successful rescue
--> could look at number of emergency calls received vs sucessful rescue.

- What is the actual utilization rate? IOW, how often do they actually get used in emergency situations?
--> related to this, what is the rate of false alarm? (False positive)

- Are their geographic differences?
--> Global location? Distance from SAR resources? ... do these make a difference?

Debates often rage here on CF over the necessity (or not) of these tools. Surely we have enough data to actually start answering these questions.
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/gmdss...s_Mar_2011.pdf

leaving aside DSC false alerts which are particularly high in the US , it would seem that about 10% of EPIRB alerts are real .

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Old 14-04-2013, 16:08   #30
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Re: Have Epirb's been superseded by the Personal Emergency response beacons?

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..transmit a digital burst once every 50 seconds.

Particularly with a GPS enabled device, how far can you move in 50 seconds?
every 5 minutes seems frequent enough, so 5x the time, 5 days, not 24 hours.
The satellites are not constantly in view, so the EPIRB or PLB transmit often enough to catch one as it whizzes by.

It has been mentioned, but in case someone missed it, the EPIRB is designed to float with the antenna properly oriented, and can be set to trigger automatically when out of its holder and immersed. The PLBs must be manually activated, and you have to hold them in position (or set them down on a solid surface if you have one).

EPIRB/PLB provide truly global service (at least as far as notification goes -- rescue may be a problem in some areas). SPOT does have significant radio dead zones in the mid-ocean areas. Best to check the SPOT coverage charts before making a decision.
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