Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-05-2009, 13:12   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
unbusted67's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Islesboro, ME
Boat: Looking for a new boat
Posts: 2,198
Images: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Microship View Post
Some truly great nets (like The Pacific Seafarer's Net) where a large group of helpful folks are on hand to pass traffic, help with problems, pass along weather data, and provide support in emergencies.
But would it be wise, if I have a HAM installed, to also have a commercial SSB radio aboard so I can contact others with a SSB?
__________________

__________________
unbusted67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 13:20   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,388
Thanks to John Drake for the explanation on why not to use a ham HF transceiver on marine HF bands. Had been vaguely aware that this was not "legal" but had assumed it was just due to some bureaucratic nonsense and not because there was a real reason for the prohibition.

If I understand, a marine HF radio is built to tighter specs and would be legal to use on ham bands (with of course the appropriate license). So looked around on the net at a couple of sights that sell "marine" radios and see a whole range of ICOMs for sale including 700 series. So are new ICOMs all type accepted for marine bands or are these vendors stretching the rules a bit?

It seems like the ICOM 802 is the hot ticket and I think it is indeed marine rated. But a new 802 and an antennae tuner is up in the range of 2.5 boat bucks. I was hoping something might be had for half that. So, what brands/models are marine rated, how can you tell, and can one be had for a boat buck or less?
__________________

__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 13:37   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle area (Bremerton)
Boat: C&C Landfall 39 center cockpit "Anahita"
Posts: 1,076
Images: 6
Icom HF transceivers

Icom (and others) market their HF radios in separate commercial marine and HAM presentations. None of the HAM radios are type accepted for commercial marine use. Even if you order a HAM HF radio with high-stability time base (which when set up correctly would ostensibly meet the commercial stability specs...often using the same modue) it will not be type accepted for use in the marine commercial band.

As previously mentioned commercial marine radios may legally be used in HAM bands, but not vice-versa.
__________________
"I don't think there'll be a return journey Mr. Frodo". Samwise Gamgee
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 14:14   #19
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
THERE ARE REAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN HAM & MARINE RADIOS

Although some will contend the differences are insignificant, in fact there are numerous differences in the design and construction of marine radios vs. those intended for the amateur radio service (ham).

As Rick mentioned, frequency stability is one of them. Marine radios must meet a high frequency stability mark, which most ham radios do not. And, even if they can be made to meet that stability by using a high-stability time base option, this is only one of several requirements.

Another important one is spectural purity...the "cleanliness" of the emitted signal. Is it fully contained in the alloted bandwidth? How much splatter is there on adjacent frequencies? On harmonic frequencies? How well does the signal hold up with low voltage input? Some ham rigs will begin to FM badly (distort) and/or cut out when the supplied voltage drops much below 12.4 volts. Does the radio contain all the ITU marine frequencies in memory? Does it have an ALARM/Distress function on 2182? etc., etc.

Some radios are manufactured to be usable in SEVERAL SERVICES, e.g., the Marine Service, the Land-Mobile Service, and in shore-based Fixed Station operations. Examples include the excellent little Yaesu System 600, which uses plug-in modules to "change" it's character to be compliant with the needs of the particular service. There are others, both new and used.

Admitedly, this business of what kind of radio can be used in what service is confusing. It MUST be, because it's been explained a g-zillion times over on this and other Boards. And, folks still don't get it.

Let me try one last time in VOA "Special English".

1. A radio used in the marine service (i.e., on the marine SSB HF bands between 2 and 27 mHz), MUST BE FCC TYPE ACCEPTED FOR THAT USE. No ifs, ands, or buts. You wanna use a radio on the marine bands and you wanna be legal...you gotta have a type-accepted marine radio.

2. Any radio....repeat....any radio, including those you buy, find, fix, build from scratch, steal from a storage locker, or invent in your mind....can be used on the amateur bands for which you are licensed to operate. You can modify an old military rig. Use an old marine rig. Modify an old aircraft rig. Anything. The difference here is that you are expected to know something about radio: you have to know enough to be responsible for your own emissions (transmissions), including their spectral purity, type, frequency, etc.

You with me so far?

OK. The confusion comes because ham radios are very nice little devices which can be quite sophisticated...much more so than, e.g., marine radios...and -- bye the bye -- can rather easily be made to operate on the marine frequencies. Wow. A cheaper, and in some ways more sophisticated radio which I can use for both ham and marine communications? What a deal! Actually, that's what a lot of sailors do. Many of them do take the chance and operate illegally on the marine bands using a ham radio. Mostly, they get away with it. Mostly, they're pretty careful in how/where/how long they operate, though I know of one egregious case of a numb-nut who actually tunes his radio off-frequency to give his voice the "Darth Vader" sound. Clearly illegal. One day he's gonna pay.

Now, on to the more interesting question of can you beat the $2.5-$3K cost of an 802 with tuner, etc. Yes, you can. Easily. There are lots of very good used marine rigs on the market. At the moment, I have six of them on my shelves, one of which is used on a marine net every morning.

Sorry if some of the above doesn't track well....just getting over a 2-week bout with the flu...and I'm not tracking too well myself :-)

Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 14:42   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,369
yea, IF you have the ham, you probably will not have the need much to use Marine SSB anyway. Bottom line really is that there is no one out there to monitor if you are using your Ham as a SSB or not. They have no real way of knowing unless you have a defective radio... and dont have anyone to do it either... Not that you should do it....
__________________
Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 14:51   #21
Registered User
 
Nauticatarcher's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Mooloolaba, Qld
Boat: Islander Freeport 36
Posts: 396
Live dangerously, we use a Icom 706 for all our communication, weatherfaxes etc, works very well and not that hard to set up really, No radio inspectors have come knocking yet!
__________________
Nauticatarcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 15:52   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
Now, on to the more interesting question of can you beat the $2.5-$3K cost of an 802 with tuner, etc. Yes, you can. Easily. There are lots of very good used marine rigs on the market. At the moment, I have six of them on my shelves, one of which is used on a marine net every morning.
Isn't a coast station license required for that?

Eric
__________________
fairbank56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 16:03   #23
cruiser
 
Trim50's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: West of SE Asia & North of Indonesia
Boat: Crealock Del Rey 50 Cutter
Posts: 492
Images: 23
My wife and I spent 2 years aquiring our General Class Ham license...we could have done it much faster, but it wasn't necessary. The point being that my wife, who has no technical background whatsoever, passed both exams with perfect scores.

IMHO, no cruising vessel should go to sea without HAM, Pactor and VHF.
__________________
Trim50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 16:04   #24
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,369
If you want a budget radio, well actually... if you a a GOOD radio: Kenwood TS450. If you can find one, a clean one should run you about $450 . You'll need a good auto tuner. It'll do packet better than many for those free e mails. I know 4 people who've had them, Everyone gets compliments on their signal. Before I bought my first one, I paid a lot of money for the "latest radio" and had a terrible signal and trouble with packet also off and on. Then my buddy told me the secret radio to get... :>) The only thing I changed was the radio and everything about my signal changed!
__________________
Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 16:33   #25
Registered User
 
mobetah's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Corpus Christi, TX (sometimes)
Boat: Endeavour40 - MOBETAH
Posts: 235
microship,

One example is email ...... free with ham radio using winlink / $250.00 year with Marine SSB using sailmail.

Bill A. KE5QLO
__________________
mobetah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 16:35   #26
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,388
Hello Rick, Bill, John, et al,

First everyone, thanks for all the very useful information. I am not sure if the latest replies were directed at my question. If so it seems like their is some misunderstanding so please let me try to clarify.

First, I do have a degree in electrical engineering and even though my focus was digital logic and IC design I do have a basic understanding of modulation (AM and FM), sidebands, bandwidth, distortion, frequency and wavelength, frequency relating to ionosphere bounce (day vs night, summer vs winter), etc. Not an expert in radio or I wouldn't be asking but I can at least understand the basic terminology. In other words I know some of the theory but none of the practise (just like an engineer, right?).

I and I think most of the forum, now get the difference between ham and marine; ham gear only for ham bands NOT for marine bands, marine radios built to tighter specs and are acceptable for ham or marine band use.

So my remaining confusion lies in exactly what gear is type accepted and legal for marine use. As posted before, I see web sites that advertise sales of marine radio equipment advertising various ICOM models but this thread started out saying that the ICOM 706 is not marine type accepted.

If I understand the post from Rick ICOM may offer ham and/or marine type accepted models. Would these be the same basic model with enhancements or a completely different line, for example is their an ICOM 700 ham and an ICOM 700 marine?

Bill, you say you have six units sitting on a shelf that will do marine for much less than an 802. Would you mind naming names? Will they also cover ham bands?

My goal here is as follows:

1. Find one radio that will legally allow me to transmit on marine and ham bands.
2. Do so for a bit less than the 802 (until I win the lottery).
3. Who to call to buy one.

Thanks
Skip
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 17:03   #27
cruiser
 
Trim50's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: West of SE Asia & North of Indonesia
Boat: Crealock Del Rey 50 Cutter
Posts: 492
Images: 23
My Kenwood TS450...for one. Excellent Ham radio for the boat IMHO.
__________________
Trim50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 17:12   #28
Registered User
 
Beausoleil's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Potomac Shores, VA USA
Boat: Formosa 51 Aft Cockpit Ketch - "Beausoleil"
Posts: 565
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
...
So my remaining confusion lies in exactly what gear is type accepted and legal for marine use. As posted before, I see web sites that advertise sales of marine radio equipment advertising various ICOM models but this thread started out saying that the ICOM 706 is not marine type accepted.

If I understand the post from Rick ICOM may offer ham and/or marine type accepted models. Would these be the same basic model with enhancements or a completely different line, for example is their an ICOM 700 ham and an ICOM 700 marine?
As Bill stated, Icom's Marine radios and Amateur radios are completely different lines. The Marine radios are type-certified, and the ham radios are not. While there are 700-series radios in both the ham and marine lines, the Icom 706-MkIIG (ham radio) and the Icom M710 (and M700, M802) are completely different beasts. A half dozen 706's could fit inside the empty chassis of an M700.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Bill, you say you have six units sitting on a shelf that will do marine for much less than an 802. Would you mind naming names? Will they also cover ham bands?

My goal here is as follows:

1. Find one radio that will legally allow me to transmit on marine and ham bands.
2. Do so for a bit less than the 802 (until I win the lottery).
3. Who to call to buy one.

Thanks
Skip
Icom still sells the cheaper M700Pro and M710 models. They can be legally "opened up" to use on ham HF bands. But neither are as nice to use as the M802 when in "ham" mode.

One think you can do is get a used 706 ham radio and a used M710 Marine SSB radio - and switch between the two.

But to do what you want to do legally, you'd need a minimum of a General class amateur radio license, a ship's station license, and a radiotelephone operators license.
__________________
Cap'n Jon (KB1HTW)
S/V Beausoleil -1979 Formosa 51 Ketch
"If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there." - Captain Ron
Beausoleil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 17:26   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
My goal here is as follows:

1. Find one radio that will legally allow me to transmit on marine and ham bands.
2. Do so for a bit less than the 802 (until I win the lottery).
3. Who to call to buy one.
And don't forget to factor in the $220 needed for the marine station license and operator permit

Eric
__________________
fairbank56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 17:46   #30
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by fairbank56 View Post
Isn't a coast station license required for that?

Eric
Eric..sorry, I should have noted that this is a HAM net for boaters.

It would be if I participated in a net on the Marine HF frequencies. However, the net I participate in is the Waterway Net, on a ham frequency...7268khz LSB beginning at 0745 EDT.

Here's an instance where a MARINE radio -- and a good one at that -- is being used regularly on a HAM net for boats. All that's required is my Amateur Radio license.

Bill
__________________

__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Psycho Crew from Hell! Ocean Girl The Sailor's Confessional 96 11-07-2009 06:51
One Hell of a Powerboat BadFish Powered Boats 11 08-07-2009 20:41
Toronto - Hell Yes, Finally KrisAubrey General Sailing Forum 0 09-06-2009 08:31
Battery Replacement from Hell.... markpj23 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 6 14-02-2009 00:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.