Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-11-2010, 16:43   #46
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
This is good stuff. Gets us into some real options beside the IC 802
__________________

__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 05:01   #47
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by svcambria View Post
Icom has discontinued the 706MIIG series, but

Michael

Its only 100 watts, where the 802 has 150 watts so you are dropping a lot of power. If that is important to you.
__________________

__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 08:35   #48
Registered User
 
svcambria's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Mexico (currently)
Boat: Panda 40 - S/V Cambria
Posts: 573
Quote:
Its only 100 watts, where the 802 has 150 watts so you are dropping a lot of power. If that is important to you.
The dB of 150 watts to 100 watts is
10Log(10)(150/100) = 10log(10)(1.5)
is something like 1.5 dB (these computer calculators don't have transcendental functions on them, aarrrgggghh!) so the loss is actually pretty minimal, easy to overcome with a good installation.
And you get to save a lot of power in the batteries!
Michael
__________________
svcambria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 08:39   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Camden, ME
Boat: A Thistle and a Hallberg-Rassy 36
Posts: 661
I'll second Michael. It might seem like the difference between 100 and 150 watts would be significant, but in the radio scheme of things the difference will be almost undetectable at the receiving end.
__________________
SoonerSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 08:46   #50
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Wattage is not something that concerns me too much if you know what you are doing with the other knobs and whistles. Actually prefer lower watts.
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 14:31   #51
Registered User
 
Auspicious's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: HR 40
Posts: 1,793
Send a message via Skype™ to Auspicious
Quote:
Originally Posted by svcambria View Post
Icom has discontinued the 706MIIG series, but it is a great little radio, easy to "open up" even for marine VHF. Available on Ebay for what looks to be about $650.
Although the OP asked us to focus on amateur radio, since the issue was raised it is worth noting that the use of an "opened" ham radio on marine frequencies (or anywhere else outside of the ham bands) except in a bona fide emergency is illegal, and illegal for quite good reasons including signal purity, harmonic suppression, frequency stability, and more.

73 es sail fast, dave KO4MI
S/V Auspicious
__________________
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks
Beware cut and paste sailors
Auspicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 14:49   #52
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
I keep hearing that, but no one I repeat no one has pointed out an FCC rule in the matter directly. Until that is referenced, Ham use on marine bands might be considered "secondary in usage" and quite AOK where they share the same band frequency ranges. 2000-2066 for example. The only FCC rule in 97 is that you do need the ships captain authority to do so. In fact, a number of people have used HAM radios on cruise ships just for fun.

Using a HAM radio w/ SHIP license call sign in a frequency range designated for only marine use - I need to see that ruling.

Else...its callsign/mm on shared bands
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 14:57   #53
Registered User
 
svcambria's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Mexico (currently)
Boat: Panda 40 - S/V Cambria
Posts: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auspicious View Post
Although the OP asked us to focus on amateur radio, since the issue was raised it is worth noting that the use of an "opened" ham radio on marine frequencies (or anywhere else outside of the ham bands) except in a bona fide emergency is illegal, and illegal for quite good reasons including signal purity, harmonic suppression, frequency stability, and more.

73 es sail fast, dave KO4MI
S/V Auspicious
Indeed. Just preparing for those emergencies beforehand...And a check on it from time to time, to see it is still working...

Michael
__________________
svcambria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 15:38   #54
Registered User
 
Auspicious's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: HR 40
Posts: 1,793
Send a message via Skype™ to Auspicious
Nope.

Let's walk through this one piece at a time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
I keep hearing that, but no one I repeat no one has pointed out an FCC rule in the matter directly.
Just to get the citation out of the way, see 47 CFR 80.203 (among others). See Section .

Amateur radio and some low power general access bands are the only services I am aware of that do NOT require type-acceptance. The type-acceptance mechanism derives from ITU requirements to which the US (like almost every other country) is a signatory. FCC and NTIA requirements are our implementation of the international agreement.

Look at the labels on marine radios, on CB radios, on your TV set and stereo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Until that is referenced, Ham use on marine bands might be considered "secondary in usage" and quite AOK where they share the same band frequency ranges. 2000-2066 for example.
The ham radio frequency allocation in Region 2 is 1.8 - 2.0 MHz. The maritime mobile frequency allocation is 2.065 - 2.1735 MHz. Even with the extra 20 kHz allocated to maritime mobile in Region 1 there is no overlap, no shared frequency range, and certainly no secondary usage for ham radio. See http://www.fcc.gov/oet/spectrum/table/fcctable.pdf . 2.000 - 2.066 MHz is not a ham radio allocation anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
The only FCC rule in 97 is that you do need the ships captain authority to do so. In fact, a number of people have used HAM radios on cruise ships just for fun.
Absolutely correct. The rule within 47 CFR 97 to which you refer applies to the use of ham radio equipment on ham radio frequencies, subject to the limitations of the operator's ham radio license, to the requirements of the relevant national authority (including license reciprocity) when in another country's waters, and some interesting complexities if the ship is flagged in a country other than that of the operator's licensure. ARRL has some reasonably coherent descriptions of international operation including on the high seas. See International Operating .

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Using a HAM radio w/ SHIP license call sign in a frequency range designated for only marine use - I need to see that ruling.

Else...its callsign/mm on shared bands
Please see above.

The use of non-type-accepted equipment on marine frequencies and operation out-of-band doesn't do either amateur radio operators or sailors any favors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svcambria View Post
Indeed. Just preparing for those emergencies beforehand
Fine. And legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svcambria View Post
...And a check on it from time to time, to see it is still working...
Not fine, and not legal.

73 es sail fast, dave KO4MI
S/V Auspicious WDC9882
__________________
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks
Beware cut and paste sailors
Auspicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 16:20   #55
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
I refer you to this chart

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 16:38   #56
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Auspicious provided an excellent summary.

Salty Monkey....to be generous your response with the spectrum chart is frivolous and not helpful. Every ham knows about this and it says absolutely nothing about type-acceptance of radio transmission equipment for use in the maritime, aviation, land-mobile, ham, or other service.

Please read Auspicious' response again, and look up the cited regulations.

It IS confusing, particularly the use of the term, "type-acceptance". Actually, its more complicated than that.

Each manufacturer must provide a "Declaration of Conformity", based on their own tests of radio equipment to be sure it is in compliance with FCC and international technical standards. The FCC then reviews these and, if approved, issues a certification of compliance and/or an authorization. It also specifies the labeling which must be attached to radio transmission equipment imported to, or produced in the U.S.

You can spend days poring over the hundreds of pages of regulations, but the bottom line is:

1. a transceiver to be used on marine frequencies -- whether VHF or HF -- MUST BE "type-accepted" by the FCC; and

2. transmitting equipment to be used exclusively on amateur frequencies requires NO authorization or type-acceptance (unless it is commercially produced and sold in the USA).

You may NOT legally use a ham radio on ANY OTHER THAN THE ALLOCATED AMATEUR FREQUENCIES.

If you have a ham license, you MAY USE ANY RADIO on the ham frequencies which your amateur license covers.

Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 17:12   #57
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Ok, for sake of complex argument...lets assume this is all correct and there were mistakes in context. Then I see no reason why a HAM radio cannot be used on a sailboat under the following conditions:

1) Restrict to HAM frequencies which are aligned to your FCC license, and with the authorized power and modes within those bands.
2) Only for use within US or International Waters.
3) For use within foreign waters, you need authority from that local government.

I could live with that.
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 17:20   #58
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Ok, for sake of complex argument...lets assume this is all correct and there were mistakes in context. Then I see no reason why a HAM radio cannot be used on a sailboat under the following conditions:

1) Restrict to HAM frequencies which are aligned to your FCC license, and with the authorized power and modes within those bands.
2) Only for use within US or International Waters.
3) For use within foreign waters, you need authority from that local government.

I could live with that.
Well, good, because that is specifically approved under international and U.S. regulations -- as well as those of most other countries in the world.

You are specifically allowed to fit and use a ham radio on the ham bands and within the frequency restrictions accordant with your license. You, as an Extra Class ham, can therefore use ANY HAM frequency allowed in the jurisdiction you are physically in. For example, you can use SSB voice on 20 meters between 14150-14300 kHz when in the U.S. You cannot use voice below 14150 in the U.S., though such operation is permitted in many foreign countries (including, e.g., Canada).

In an extreme emergency, of course, you may use ANY MEANS to attract attention and get needed help. However, in many cases there will be no need to go beyond the ham bands, because they usually offer the best chance of being heard and finding knowledgeable persons who can assist you.

Bill
WA6CCA
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 17:24   #59
Registered User
 
Auspicious's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: HR 40
Posts: 1,793
Send a message via Skype™ to Auspicious
Thanks Bill,

It's worth reinforcing that the FCC requirements stem from international agreements in the context of the ITU to which nearly every country in the world (all 180something of them) have agreed. The upshot is that getting out of US waters doesn't provide any dispensation. International waters don't either.

These are in fact rules for good reason - sure there are a lot of bureaucratically rooted rules, laws, and ordinances in the world but these are NOT among them.

I suspect that Salty Monkey linked to the huge whopping spectrum allocation chart from NTIA (which should be familiar to you Bill since it was in the SSB seminar you and I presented through SSCA) in reference to the issue of frequency allocations just above 2 MHz. If true it would appear that two similar but different shades of green caused some confusion. Look at the tabular allocation table I linked to in order to see the specific allocations.
__________________
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks
Beware cut and paste sailors
Auspicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 17:31   #60
Registered User
 
Auspicious's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: HR 40
Posts: 1,793
Send a message via Skype™ to Auspicious
Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
However, in many cases there will be no need to go beyond the ham bands, because they usually offer the best chance of being heard and finding knowledgeable persons who can assist you.
Which is totally in agreement with my experience. Other than a net once in a while, and talking to friends without ham licenses underway, the only times I use the marine frequencies are for 1. Sailmail, 2. contact with authorities in places like Bermuda that appreciate the early heads-up that one is coming, and 3. ship-to-shore phone calls through ShipCom/WLO.

The maritime nets on ham frequencies are as good and usually better than those on marine frequencies. Outside of nets there is always someone out there to talk with on the ham bands.
__________________

__________________
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks
Beware cut and paste sailors
Auspicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
satellite

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Volvo Penta NEMA 2000 Gateway Agility Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 2 25-03-2010 08:39
Turn Your Yacht into a Mobile Winmor-Enabled Winlink 2000 Gateway Hamsailor Marine Electronics 6 06-01-2010 12:49
Iridium satellite phone question gbanker Marine Electronics 13 14-02-2009 13:54
digital multimeter Khamles Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 36 03-12-2008 07:10



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:58.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.