HAM, Marine SSB, Other?

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by SoonerSailor

Arguments can be made on both sides. If it were important the rules would be clarified - one side or the other - but it isnt an important issue and it hasnt been brought to adjudication, so there is at present no "absolute" answer.

True, in a way, but... If the authorities interpretation of the rules is the same as that of the majority here, then you would not expect them to bring this matter to adjudication.

This is one of those cases where you can't really prove a negative. I can't absolutely prove that it is not a violation of the rules to modify a certified radio and use it in the amateur service, because the FCC doesn't take people to court, or send them warning letters, for NOT violating the rules. What they do is send letters and fine people when they DO violate the rules.

The fact that they have never done that to any of the thousands of hams who have modified and then used certified radios over the years is a pretty good indication of how they interpret the rules.

[fairbank56]

Originally Posted by videobear

Eric,

It IS legal to use a marine SSB transmitter on the amateur radio bands...for a licensed amateur radio operator! In this case, as many others have pointed out to you, it is not the marine radio regulations that apply, but the amateur radio regulations.

Simply not the case. An installed marine transmitter constitutes a marine radio station, not an amateur station. It must be operated in accordance with part 80 rules. Certainly, if you are going to operate your marine radio on the ham bands, then you must comply with part 97 rules while doing so, but again for the umpteenth time, this is technically against the rules.

The fact that they have never done that to any of the thousands of hams who have modified and then used certified radios over the years is a pretty good indication of how they interpret the rules.

Doesn't prove a thing. The FCC has to know about a violation in the first place to be in a position to do anything about it and in the case of a voluntary user operating a marine SSB on ham freq's, they probably wouldn't waste their time anyway. The vast majority of fines and penalties handed out by the FCC are a result of interference complaints. They don't just run around looking for violations

If the authorities interpretation of the rules is the same as that of the majority here

What majority??? The one person who has weighed in on the legal debate? The rest just use their marine radio for both marine and ham and don't worry about it, including me, they haven't said one way or another whether they think it's legal or not.

Eric

[S/V Illusion]

I think the real answer will become self-evident to those who think it a violation (to op a marine radio on ham bands) when they consider that the marine regs are more strict. Consequently, it would seem ludicrous to operate a rig required to meet higher emission standards than required for ham radios.

[btrayfors]

OK, let's put this idiotic argument to rest.

The question has been put to not one, not two, not three, but four separate and independent FCC authorities. Three of these have more than 20 years with the FCC and have retired. The fourth is currently serving at the FCC in a position with direct knowledge of and responsibility for "certification".

They are lawyers, electronic engineers, and administrators having direct knowledge of the question.

One of them was head of the FCC's compliance division for years. Another is a lawyer/electronics engineer who had 22 years FCC service. He's also an extra class ham with world class skills (won numerous awards).

The responses are unanimous, and are summed up by the ex-chief of compliance: "Any gear can be used on Amateur bands, homebrew, modified or whatever. That's the beauty of the service. HOWEVER, the reverse is not true, as you know."

It doesn't matter a whit if a radio has been certified or type-accepted as a marine radio, an aircraft radio, a military radio, a land-mobile radio, or any other type. A duly licensed amateur can modify it if necessary for ham band operation and can use it there legally. That's in the spirit of ham radio, and is fully consistent with the historical intent of the Amateur Radio Service.

Important note: commercially sold amplifiers are in a different category: they must be certified by the FCC for ham band operation. This is because of their potential to cause harmful interference, and the proliferation of powerful "broadband" amplifiers marketed mostly to CB'ers which lack the filtering necessary for clean signal emissions.

Of course the reverse is not true: you can't legally use an amateur radio in the marine service, i.e.,. on the allocated marine bands. Nor can you use it in any other service: aeronautical, land-mobile, etc.

A quick note on the rules, regulations, and the law. I'm not a lawyer, but my lawyer friends have told me that quite often what's "right" and what's "legal" departs somewhat from the letter of the law. You can't always assume that the language used in the law covers all contingencies or historical precedence. They say that it's important, too, to consider case law and intent of the pertinent law.

Bottom line: you may (legally) modify and use ANY radio in the amateur radio service -- irrespective of it's FCC "certification", providing that:

1. you are a duly licensed amateur; and
2. the radio meets the emission requirements of Part 80 (essentially, so it won't "cause harmful interference").

Any commercial HF radio sold for maritime, aeronautical, land-mobile, military, etc. in the U.S. can easily meet the requirements of Part 80.

That said, you may not modify a type-accepted or "certificated" radio which is used in, e.g., the maritime service without invalidating that certification for continued use in that service. If, for example, you get someone to turn on speech compression on your spiffy Icom 802, then it no longer meets the emission standards for the marine service and you will have invalidated its "certification".

Bill
WA6CCA

[fairbank56]

You asked the wrong question. The question is whether it's legal to modify a marine radio being used for maritime service use under a marine station license and then continue to use it for maritime service AND amateur radio service.

There are currently no commercial radio's in the U.S. that are marketed do that. Even the Yaesu System 600 that you mentioned must be configured for one service or the other, not both. It's either a marine radio or an amateur radio (or 3rd option LMR).

If your going to ask again, don't forget to remind them about the part 97 rule that states an amateur station aboard a vessel must be separate and independent of all other radio apparatus, notwithstanding other rules in part 80 and part 2 that are being violated.

At the end of your post, I assume you meant part 97, not part 80.

Eric

[btrayfors]

Originally Posted by fairbank56

You asked the wrong question. The question is whether it's legal to modify a marine radio being used for maritime service use under a marine station license and then continue to use it for maritime service AND amateur radio service.

Read my last paragraph which says just this!

........

If your going to ask again, don't forget to remind them about the part 97 rule that states an amateur station aboard a vessel must be separate and independent of all other radio apparatus, notwithstanding other rules in part 80 and part 2 that are being violated.

I'm not going to ask again. The FCC position on this is clear. I'm done with this senseless discussion.

At the end of your post, I assume you meant part 97, not part 80.

Eric

Yes, Part 97 (not Part 80), i.e., that portion of the CFR which pertains to Amateur Radio.



Bill

[S/V Illusion]

For anyone still bothering to read this esoteric debate, it has already been clearly established there is no restriction. Why debate a moot point except to push an invalid argument?

[fairbank56]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

For anyone still bothering to read this esoteric debate, it has already been clearly established there is no restriction.

Quite the opposite.

You can modify any radio to operate on the ham bands at which point the radio is now strictly for use in the amateur radio service.

You cannot modify your marine radio to operate on the ham bands and continue to use it for both the marine and amateur radio services.

Eric

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by fairbank56

I disagree. It must be operated under a marine station license whether you intend to transmit on marine frequencies or not.

Eric

"You can modify any radio to operate on the ham bands at which point the radio is now strictly for use in the amateur radio service."

Contradicting yourself doesn't usually win the debate.

[fairbank56]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Contradicting yourself doesn't usually win the debate.

Wow, your really digging for dirt aren't you? How immature.

You didn't include the whole post and what it was in response to, which makes it meaningless except in your own mind.

That was in response to someone installing a marine radio, claiming it's not a marine station and using it on ham bands regardless if it required modification to do that or not.

If a ham really wants to take a marine radio and use it strictly for amateur radio use, it needs to be modified so that it can only transmit on amateur radio bands, just like any other available commercial amateur radio.

Taking a marine radio and entering a special button sequence to make it work on ham bands and calling it a ham radio is a stretch.

There are reasons why there are different radio's for different services.

Your missing the whole point anyway. For recreational/voluntary users, operating a marine SSB on both marine and ham freq's is pretty much accepted practice (don't worry about it, nobody cares). Somebody said it was "perfectly legal". I challenge that statement. If you want to argue it to death, fine, don't try to discredit me like the politicians do to each other, give me some hard evidence that it is in fact legal. Iv'e yet to see any.

Eric

[S/V Illusion]

really - personal insults to make your case?

enjoy whatever your game is

[CarinaPDX]

At the risk of entering a hair-splitting argument, let me make a couple of points.

The FCC rules re: HF radio are based on an international treaty. IIRC the requirement for separation of the ship's station from ham operation is in this treaty, and duly part of the FCC rules. Clearly other nations also include this provision in their rules. Whether the FCC chooses to interpret the rules as to apply only to compulsory-equipped vessels, or simply doesn't consider it worthwhile to enforce, or hasn't considered the issue, is a very esoteric discussion. The reality is that if an American vessel has an M802 opened up and is using it in both services he will not have a problem (barring the incredibly unlikely possibility of the FCC doing something differently, and assuming all appropriate licenses are possessed).

But this is an incredibly parochial discussion: the US is not the world. European nations DO interpret the prohibition to include voluntarily-equiped vessels. Approved marine radios available in Europe do not have the ability to be easily opened to ham bands (or actually all bands as in the US). My understanding is that the M801 (the European equivalent of the M802) is a different model primarily to address this issue.

Clearly the basis of this rule is to protect the ship's radio - which in any event must be used 24/7 on compulsory vessels to maintain a watch on the marine bands. As noted by many posters, hams are remarkably unrestricted in their (non-interfering) operations.

I am no expert on the FCC rules, and my memory sometimes betrays me, so cut some slack, OK? (not apparently the ambience of this thread)

Greg (KF7BW)

[goboatingnow]

I can't speak for FCC rules but under ETSI , ships radios ( voluntary or compulsory fit) ate certificated or type approved. They cannot legally be used on a ships radio license if they have been modified ( by the manufacturer or anyone ) to receive and transmit on any other frequency then those allocated by their ships radio license.

While it is possible to reprogram some radios to do just that doing so ,makes that radio, technically illegal to use on the marine radio band.
end of story.

Dave

[CarinaPDX]

If memory serves, in the past the Icom 700/710 radios were offered with different programming in the US and Europe. There were some folks who reprogrammed their European radios with US firmware in order to get access to the ham bands. Hence the different product names (M801/M802) to discourage this practice.

Greg

[btrayfors]

While the M801 and M802 share some common characteristics, they are very different radios, with the M801 being much more expensive, more robust, meeting GMDSS and EU standards (including limited output power as required), etc., etc.

BTW, all current Icom marine radios (the M700Pro, M710, M802, M801) have broadband receiving capability from 0.5 to 29.999 mHz right out of the box.

You can, therefore, listen to any HF broadcast: ham, marine, aeronautical, land-mobile, etc., etc.

It is possible for a radio to receive certification for use in more than one service, e.g., the Yaesu System 600 which can be used in 4 different services depending on the configuration plug installed in the front panel. Another example is the FRS and GMRS combo walkie-talkies offered in blister packs at Walmart, Target, etc.

It has been claimed that the M802 received FCC certification for both marine and ham use and, indeed, for a time the M802 was shipped with some ham frequencies already programmed into the user channels.

However, Icom doesn't advertise this anymore...if they ever did...and it's not shown in their literature. The FCC ID for the 802 certification is AFJIC-M802, but I haven't been able to find the text of that certification.

As a further confusion, there are several levels of modification under FCC rules, with one level not requiring re-submission or re-certification for mods which don't affect the performance characteristics submitted with the original certification application.

Bottom line and to keep it simple here are three salient points:

1. A certificated marine SSB transceiver is intended for use on the authorized marine bands ONLY;

2. A licensed amateur radio operator may modify and use such a radio on the ham bands, but such modification is likely to invalidate the certification for future use on the marine bands; and

3. Nobody is likely to check or care....at least not on this side of the Pond...so long as you operate within the confines of your license and don't cause harmful interference to others.

Bill