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Old 15-10-2017, 19:13   #76
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Grounding Plate for SSB

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I get Cuba radio really well, at maybe at 6000. Their report of world news is much different than the USA version.


Yes, that is one reason I liked listening to BBC and even the Kuwaiti news services, completely different slant on the same news. Interesting.
For example when I was in Germany, a few Germans would ask me how we could have found OJ Simpson not guilty. They were in disbelief.
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Old 15-10-2017, 19:18   #77
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

Yes, 6000 is Cuba Radio, listening to it now. Signal nearly maxes out, and I have everything on, on the boat. Fridge, Engel, Sat TV, air conditioners stereo, etc.
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Old 16-10-2017, 05:05   #78
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

HF and shortwave are the same frequency band. Just different names for the same thing.
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Old 30-12-2017, 18:36   #79
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

How does one connect the copper foils to each other? will the weight of some glass mat and epoxy be enough or should the be soldered, riveted, screwed, together first.
thanks
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Old 30-12-2017, 20:12   #80
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

I agree with Cheechako.
The copper "ground" is actually the counterpoise--it has an opposing and balancing effect. It acts as a ground to 'shoot the signal up and out through the antenna which holds an absence of force' (my plain English explanation)/
I don't like any more holes in my boat's hull. Also, I don't want a "fouled" dynaplate to reduce effectiveness as a ground.
Putting 50 linear feet of 4" wide copper foil throughout the boat is not difficult not does it have to be an arduous installation. I made 3 strips each attached to the Tuner in the stern of my boat at the base of the backstay which has insulators. One strip went flat along the inside the starboard aft hull area (remember it is pretty stiff copper stripping that you can shape and bend), folded up to the underside of a stanchion (backing plate) that is throughbolted to the aluminum toe rail, the stanchion, and the backing plate. I folded the end to make a 1/2" wide "tab" through which I drilled a 1/4" hole, pushed this tab onto the throughbolt and the washer and then nut. Tightened. The copper does not move nor wiggle. It also stays dry as it is mostly up near the underside of the coaming. I did the same on the port side aft quarter These strips were 9 feet each (from underside of tuner to throughbolt under stanchion. The third piece went directly down from the underside of the tuner molded to the hull, to the starboard side of the engine area where I bent it in flat bend turns to then loop up to an engine bolt (out of the way of any moving belts, etc.), then bent back down in tidy/neat squarish folds down to a very shiny/clean keel bolt in the bilge. It was snugly secured with thin G-10 pieces with slots cut to slip zip ties to securely hold the copper stipping flat and firm.
This copper stripping network of counterpoise is easily accessed and disassembled for cleaning, inspection, and/or replacement.
My SSB signal proved very powerful over several hundred miles out in the Pacific. Having enough power available (30amps) and an excellent counterpoise are key.
My boat's toerail, lifelines and stanchions became part of the counterpoise because the copper strips were bolted to the undersides of one stanchion on port and one on starboard.
My boat does not have metal tanks so using the engine and the keel bolts for including them as counterpoise was my option.
I used an actual total of 48 ft, of 4" wide copper strip. It is all neatly out of the way.
By the way, I soldered along all of the flat folds and soldered the tapered folds severely flattened with a hammer before drilling the hole for attaching this "tab" to the bolt coming out of the underside of the Tuner. Before I slipped it onto the bolt, I soldered all of the foldered edges.
I love my SSB! You will do a lot of relaying out there.
After a couple of crossings, the copper strips continue to be "put" as originally set. I just clean the attachments, particularly the one to the keel bolt in the bilge.
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Old 30-12-2017, 21:50   #81
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

Make sure you are in upper side band mode..There is upper, lower ,fsk,afs and cw modes and you wont receive Chris Parker if your not on upper single side band. Your marina will definitely hurt your signal. Testing your counterpoise is usually best with lower frequencies, 4 or 6 megs as if your getting out well on those frequencies you'll usually do well on all of them. Low frequencies use ground waves and are best a night or early morning. Upper frequencies are bouncing off the ionosphere and are usually good in the evening while the ionosphere is still active and later in the morning. Calling stations West of here are better signals because they still have a very active ionosphere where stations East the ionosphere is almost dead late in the evening. It takes some getting used to but I've used a SSB for over 30 years and it's almost intuitive when your setting up the best time to call. I have both satellite telephone and SSB and use SSB all the time both for email as well as weather and of course the different nets and keeping in touch with cruising friends. Your signal should improve immensely when you get out of your marina. Again test it on lower frequencies and if your signal is good in my experience it will be excellent on higher frequencies. Even in your marina you should be able to receive Chris Parker, remember he broadcasts on 8 megs as well as 12 megs and he has a very good directional antenna that he adjusts depending on what part of the Caribbean he is broadcasting to plus he has a very strong signal which should bust through most noise. We are currently in a marina and we can still get him pretty good. Good luck, it will all come together for you but it takes some time. R
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Old 30-12-2017, 21:58   #82
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

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Originally Posted by CLady View Post
I agree with Cheechako.
The copper "ground" is actually the counterpoise--it has an opposing and balancing effect. It acts as a ground to 'shoot the signal up and out through the antenna which holds an absence of force' (my plain English explanation)/
I don't like any more holes in my boat's hull. Also, I don't want a "fouled" dynaplate to reduce effectiveness as a ground.
Putting 50 linear feet of 4" wide copper foil throughout the boat is not difficult not does it have to be an arduous installation. I made 3 strips each attached to the Tuner in the stern of my boat at the base of the backstay which has insulators. One strip went flat along the inside the starboard aft hull area (remember it is pretty stiff copper stripping that you can shape and bend), folded up to the underside of a stanchion (backing plate) that is throughbolted to the aluminum toe rail, the stanchion, and the backing plate. I folded the end to make a 1/2" wide "tab" through which I drilled a 1/4" hole, pushed this tab onto the throughbolt and the washer and then nut. Tightened. The copper does not move nor wiggle. It also stays dry as it is mostly up near the underside of the coaming. I did the same on the port side aft quarter These strips were 9 feet each (from underside of tuner to throughbolt under stanchion. The third piece went directly down from the underside of the tuner molded to the hull, to the starboard side of the engine area where I bent it in flat bend turns to then loop up to an engine bolt (out of the way of any moving belts, etc.), then bent back down in tidy/neat squarish folds down to a very shiny/clean keel bolt in the bilge. It was snugly secured with thin G-10 pieces with slots cut to slip zip ties to securely hold the copper stipping flat and firm.
This copper stripping network of counterpoise is easily accessed and disassembled for cleaning, inspection, and/or replacement.
My SSB signal proved very powerful over several hundred miles out in the Pacific. Having enough power available (30amps) and an excellent counterpoise are key.
My boat's toerail, lifelines and stanchions became part of the counterpoise because the copper strips were bolted to the undersides of one stanchion on port and one on starboard.
My boat does not have metal tanks so using the engine and the keel bolts for including them as counterpoise was my option.
I used an actual total of 48 ft, of 4" wide copper strip. It is all neatly out of the way.
By the way, I soldered along all of the flat folds and soldered the tapered folds severely flattened with a hammer before drilling the hole for attaching this "tab" to the bolt coming out of the underside of the Tuner. Before I slipped it onto the bolt, I soldered all of the foldered edges.
I love my SSB! You will do a lot of relaying out there.
After a couple of crossings, the copper strips continue to be "put" as originally set. I just clean the attachments, particularly the one to the keel bolt in the bilge.
Don't want to criticize any of your ideas as obviously you have a good signal but I'll bet you you will get just as good a signal if you ran a single copper strap to your keel bolt. I used that on my last two boats and always had a very strong signal. Nothing wrong with adding extra metal but almost 50 feet of strapping probably doesn't do much. A friend ran a short piece of copper foil to a single thru hull and got out just as good as I did so sometimes we over think this stuff.
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Old 30-12-2017, 22:13   #83
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

Thank you Robert Sailor,
This was my first ever installation and didn't want to be "shorted" of any performance "out there" -- I'm continuing to learn so much about all of this.
Maybe I'll not replace the other strips when they corrode away over time and just keep the one to the keel and test it. Knowing me though, I'll carry spare copper 'just in case'.
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Old 31-12-2017, 04:42   #84
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

The ham community soldiers them together. With the often damp/ high humidity environment under floor other bonding methods likely wouldn’t last long. Further, pinching the copper foil down to it get into a crimp reduces its effectiveness as a RF ground (which is very different than just a DC ground). By the way, that harsh environment of the bare copper foil requests yearly inspections after 5 yrs or so. The foil starts to turn green (if not epoxied down/ sealed) and will actually deteriorate until it actually falls apart.
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Old 31-12-2017, 06:11   #85
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

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Don't want to criticize any of your ideas as obviously you have a good signal but I'll bet you you will get just as good a signal if you ran a single copper strap to your keel bolt. I used that on my last two boats and always had a very strong signal. Nothing wrong with adding extra metal but almost 50 feet of strapping probably doesn't do much. [...].


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Old 31-12-2017, 07:30   #86
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Don't want to criticize any of your ideas as obviously you have a good signal but I'll bet you you will get just as good a signal if you ran a single copper strap to your keel bolt. I used that on my last two boats and always had a very strong signal. Nothing wrong with adding extra metal but almost 50 feet of strapping probably doesn't do much. A friend ran a short piece of copper foil to a single thru hull and got out just as good as I did so sometimes we over think this stuff.
Running a copper strap to a keel boat is a good way to get more corrosion issues, as the keel DC potential will be different than your other grounds. Far better to put a capacitor in the circuit to block the DC.

I can't remember what capacitance you need, but I actually constructed my own capacitor out of two strips of copper foil separated by a plastic bag and rolled up.

For the OP, I would suggest testing to see if your current ground is adequate.
With the help of a ham, establish contact with another station and get him to give you signal reports. First try with your existing ground. Second, take a roll of aluminum foil, throw 10 ft of one end in the water and attach the other end to your tuner ground lug. If your signal improves dramatically, your ground system would benefit from an upgrade.
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Old 31-12-2017, 07:38   #87
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

So here’s the issue with ‘bet you’ll have just as good a signal... single copper strap to your keel bolt’. I know I’m going to sound a bit like a zealot, but next to a Satellite phone I consider a properly installed/ functioning SSB and essential part of any serious cruiser’s equipment, responsibility to their family/ crew.
- Radio signals are measured on a logarithmic scale. On a nice day, even no grounding and only 5 watts transmitter power without interference may still allow you to hear/ be heard very clearly. But unfortunately emergencies rarely happen on these days. But during usual emergencies... during storms, hurricanes, or in marinas with vert high levels of local/ regional atmospheric noise... trying to hear/ others in distress... only the strongest of signals can be heard. And looking at it from the other direction... you may only be heard by others if you are getting the most out of your SSB system. So to better play the odds, for your SSB transmitter/ antenna tuner to work as efficiently as possible it needs the best RF ground possible. Keep in mind, a similar ham radio installation on land will have 2-4 8’ ground rods (roughy equivalent to our keel) and at least 8 (but usually 16 or more) 32’ to 64’ ground radials. And if it weren’t for lightning protection, most hams would say, if they had to chose between only the ground rods or the radials... they would easily pick the radials as the best signal enhancer. They can also run transmitters with up to 1500 watts compared to our 150 watts. Even with their superior installations/ power... and life knowledge of what frequencies are most likely to get through during noisy tropical storms their range may still be reduced to very short distance (may be less than 50 miles during the day) on their 160 meter band (closest frequency to 2182 distress frequency.

- One of the big issues with ‘I get good signals’ is that is after tuning around and hearing/ picking a band that currently has propagation enhancement. Very few of us however regularly monitor the 2182 kHz SSB Emergency Calling frequency/ channel. It stinks during the day... max distance at our powers about 50 miles. Fortunately much better on Winter nights... but with Summer’s static... these typical ranges are greatly reduced.

- Stray RF in/ around an inadequate/ improperly installed/ HF transmitter ground can play havoc with autopilot, chart plotter, smart alternator charge controllers (and get interference from them covering up receive signals. And when conditions get really snotty (severe lightning) not only will your transmitter still be operating at less radiated efficiency but also the less less efficient system really shows its weakness when you might need it most with receive signals not be strong enough to overcome the local atmospheric (lighting) noise/ or boat noise plus the seasonal & day vs. night propagation variations. As a serious cruiser, I look at SSB, not as entertainment, but as a must have significant part of our safety equipment. I wouldn’t go off shore with fire extinguishers 3/4s full or life raft that could only be filled 3/4 of design psi. Why for $50 or so would I not want SSB equipment to be installed with max potential to save our lives?
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Old 31-12-2017, 07:51   #88
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

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Running a copper strap to a keel boat is a good way to get more corrosion issues, as the keel DC potential will be different than your other grounds. Far better to put a capacitor in the circuit to block the DC.

I can't remember what capacitance you need, but I actually constructed my own capacitor out of two strips of copper foil separated by a plastic bag and rolled up.

For the OP, I would suggest testing to see if your current ground is adequate.
With the help of a ham, establish contact with another station and get him to give you signal reports. First try with your existing ground. Second, take a roll of aluminum foil, throw 10 ft of one end in the water and attach the other end to your tuner ground lug. If your signal improves dramatically, your ground system would benefit from an upgrade.
Never had a problem with corrosion but running diodes across a copper foil junction is supposed to look after that as well as other issues. Friends have done it and I think Dashew used to recommend it so probably something to it. I've always been really satisfied with my signal and have been told over and over I've got a strong signal so I just leave well enough alone. I do use several chokes in my system to improve my Pactor modem.
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Old 31-12-2017, 09:08   #89
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

If you are concerned about galvanic currents, two back-to-back 10 amp, 1kv ($2 on ebay) silicon diodes will prevent much current flow until the difference voltage is > .65 volts. Two in series in each leg will double the threshold. If you use SSB, be sure to connect a 0.01 Mfd, 1kv capacitor across the diodes to ensure a proper RF connection. All of this will of course be vaporized with a lightning strike, but they're cheap.

In my way of thinking, I will connect the mast and the RF/DC ground directly to a keel bolt, and let it be the single-point ground. I will float the seacocks and use zincs where required.
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Old 31-12-2017, 09:59   #90
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Re: Grounding Plate for SSB

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I will float the seacocks and use zincs where required.
Total isolation may be difficult. Do consider that in the ocean there may still be some electrical connection via the salt water in the hoses. For example, between the engine cooling raw-water seacock and the engine block.

I've not measured this on my boat, but seawater has a bulk electrical resistance of around 0.2 Ohm. Assuming a 0.78" effective surface area at each end of a 3-ft hose (bronze seacock, 1" dia hose, engine block), that gives about 1200 Ohms of resistance. Given a typical dissimilar-metal or shorepower ground voltage difference of one volt that's slightly under one milliamp of current exiting the through hull. This isn't a lot, but it will add up over time.

I couldn't tell you if this would be enough to cause a problem, but yes, "zincs where required".
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