Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-07-2009, 11:24   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pacific Ocean, Brookings, Oregon USA
Boat: Coronado 25 (Don't tell her I'm shopping for an upgrade)
Posts: 32
Global Internet / Satellite - Numbers, Perspective, No Hype

To the point: Is there a technology that suits my needs (listed below) that's better than Inmarsat's BGAN?

I'm not a total noob to this stuff. I do not expect to be able to watch TV on the high seas for $39.99 per month.


Basics


To begin with, my question pertains only to global internet connectivity. By global I mean:
  • Not limited to a couple miles away from a land-based WiFi access point with a big antenna
  • Not limited to 20ish miles away from a land-based "cellular" network such as the 3G/EDGE/UMTS/HSPA acronym extravaganza
  • This is a good example of good minimum coverage map
By internet, I am not referring to "broadband" (unless there is a magical service I somehow missed) that would allow me to watch YouTube videos. Yes, i want broadband, but I do not expect/need it for this purpose. My basic requirements are as follows:
  • IP based (this excludes services such as Sailmail)
  • Business/commercial friendly Terms of Service (this excludes HAM services such as Winlink)
  • Text-only-email levels of bandwidth (something like 2-10K chunks of data at a time)
  • Billing by data unit, not by time unit (this excludes the typical Iridium Globalstar $1.XX per minute plans)
Context

Until the day comes that an affordable (by regular people) global broadband internet solution is available, my strategy is to have have multiple layers of communications technologies and use each where it makes sense. For coastal areas, this includes things such as WiFi and GSM type wireless. However, I need to be able to send email and other small packets of data outside their effective range(s).

I am not independently wealthy. I am not retired. Therefore, I must continue to generate income whilst exploring as much as planet earth as I can. For me, competing with locals and performing grunt work in various ports for local wages is less efficient than providing professional services to businesses that tend to be located in areas I'm not. To make this happen, I need communications... especially email. I also use Google Voice which transcribes voicemails people leave then emails me a copy in text. It also allows SMS/text messages to be sent to regular phones from a computer. (Google Voice may be the coolest thing ever ).

Perspective

So far, the best solution my research as turned up is Inmarsat's BGAN. One extra advantage of this system is that, in a (expensive) pinch, its bandwidth is high enough to be used for things such as Skype.

Here are the numbers I'm working with for BGAN:
Yeah... the cost per megabyte seems ridiculous so I did some calculations. It appears that when dealing with text only emails, most of my messages are around 5kB. At 5k, that's 200 messages per megabyte. With the rates above, that breaks down to $.01625-$0.03225. When it's broken down like that, 1.6 to 3.2 cents per message doesn't sound so unreasonable. Sure, a show on Hulu.com would cost $5.7 Zillion dollars but I can live without Hulu (sometimes).

To put that in perspective, compare it to $.05 to $.25 cents per SMS/text message on a typical cell phone plan in the U.S... an SMS/text is 160 bits. That equals only 20 bytes or .02kB. Meaning that in one megabyte, you can fit 50,000 SMS/text messages (admittedly, that's ignoring headers, etc) for a total cost of $2,500-$12,500 per MB! I don't vouch for that calculation, but in any case, whatever the exact calculation turns out to be, it's ridiculous.

So... with that in mind, is there a better option than Inmarsat's BGAN for what I'm trying to accomplish here? I think Iridium has some sort of IP/charge-by-data plan, but I haven't found a definitive breakdown on cost. Does anyone know details about that service? Is there something else I should be looking at?
__________________

__________________
Transforming from urban professional go global adventurer SailToTrail.com and exploring with only human, wind, and solar power.
sailtotrail.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2009, 12:12   #2
Moderator
 
Paul Elliott's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,872
Images: 4
If your use will be text-only email, I don't understand your "IP-based" and "Billing by data unit" requirements. A pure IP connection isn't really designed for long-latency, low-reliability connections, and an optimized service such as XGate over Iridium performs quite efficiently under these conditions. For that matter, Sailmail over SSB is pretty decent in this case.

If you plan to send/receive more than a couple hundred Kbytes of email a day, the cost will add up on Iridium, and you will exceed the Sailmail usage limits, but your two requirements I am questioning have no impact on this. There are other non-ham SSB email providers besides Sailmail, and they may have different limits, but I've got no experience with any of them.
__________________

__________________
Paul Elliott, S/V VALIS - Pacific Seacraft 44 #16 - Friday Harbor, WA
www.sailvalis.com
Paul Elliott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2009, 14:01   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pacific Ocean, Brookings, Oregon USA
Boat: Coronado 25 (Don't tell her I'm shopping for an upgrade)
Posts: 32
Agreed... my use of the phrase "text-only-email levels of bandwidth" as my only example was a bit ambiguous and I should have been more clear. I was trying to stress that the file sizes in the example were for text-only emails as opposed to the increased file sizes of emails wrapped in html or containing other bulky formatting options. I did not mean to convey that I would be using email only.

I completely agree that if I was only using email, then the other requirements you (Paul) pointed out as unnecessary would indeed be unnecessary. However, while email will be the primary use over the connection in question, from time to time I need good old fashioned terminal access to servers under my control, text based chats such as xmpp, and probably a few other protocols that only work over IP that I'm not thinking of at the moment.

An "always on" IP connection is not required, but I do need to be able to open a standard internet connection with an IP address, do what I need to do, then disconnect.

I'm totally open to SSB or anything else if there are options that allow for an actual internet connection.
__________________
Transforming from urban professional go global adventurer SailToTrail.com and exploring with only human, wind, and solar power.
sailtotrail.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2009, 16:31   #4
Registered User
 
AtomicPhil's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bronx, NY
Boat: just my arms and legs
Posts: 50
Send a message via ICQ to AtomicPhil Send a message via AIM to AtomicPhil Send a message via MSN to AtomicPhil Send a message via Yahoo to AtomicPhil Send a message via Skype™ to AtomicPhil
hey have you though of using like verizon wireless? my friend used it at his job anywhere he went had internet. but i must amit i dont know about the being out in the ocean. heres a link Wireless World Verizon Preimum Reseller - wireless PC cards .. im going to be doing some research on more satellite communications that can be used.
__________________
AtomicPhil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2009, 16:36   #5
Registered User
 
AtomicPhil's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bronx, NY
Boat: just my arms and legs
Posts: 50
Send a message via ICQ to AtomicPhil Send a message via AIM to AtomicPhil Send a message via MSN to AtomicPhil Send a message via Yahoo to AtomicPhil Send a message via Skype™ to AtomicPhil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
If you plan to send/receive more than a couple hundred Kbytes of email a day, the cost will add up on Iridium, and you will exceed the Sailmail usage limits,

This doesnt happens unless its already saved in your temporary folder. if you clean up your computer regularly, all that has been saved during your internet search is gone. now if you dont erase anything it saved in this folder so the next time you type something or want to see a video, videos that you have seen goes faster or everything you have typed automatically appears. this would help you save money when using company internet that charges money for packets.
__________________
AtomicPhil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2009, 16:54   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pacific Ocean, Brookings, Oregon USA
Boat: Coronado 25 (Don't tell her I'm shopping for an upgrade)
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailtotrail.com View Post
  • Not limited to 20ish miles away from a land-based "cellular" network such as the 3G/EDGE/UMTS/HSPA acronym extravaganza
@AtomicPhil

I know this stuff all starts to sound the same at some point, so thank you for your input, but Verizon is unfortunately excluded by the quote above. I do actually use a similar service (but recommend GSM rather than Verizon's CDMA network for global compatibility) while close enough to civilization to get a cell signal and when free WiFi is not also available. It's great when you're in range. In the U.S. it's AT&T, but I switch SIM cards abroad whenever possible.

BGAN or whatever service is determined to be a superior alternative is to fill in the huge gaps of planet earth that Verizon, AT&T, Movistar, Orange and their ilk don't reach.
__________________
Transforming from urban professional go global adventurer SailToTrail.com and exploring with only human, wind, and solar power.
sailtotrail.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2009, 19:42   #7
Registered User
 
Agility's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Boat: Chris White A47 Mastfoil
Posts: 310
Images: 6
Have you looked at:

SAILOR 150 FleetBroadband - SAILOR FleetBroadband - Satellite Communication - Products - Maritime - Corporate - Thrane & Thrane

It seems like it's might be much more cost effective than BGAN.

Don't underestimate how many meg's you might use. For example, during 9/11 I spent about $4K on minutes with Globalstar. They make their money on the minutes/meg's not the equipment.
__________________
Agility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2009, 20:46   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pacific Ocean, Brookings, Oregon USA
Boat: Coronado 25 (Don't tell her I'm shopping for an upgrade)
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRhapCity View Post
The Sailor 150 system uses Inmarsat's FleetBroadband for service. Upon closer inspection, FleetBroadband appears to be just their branded terminology for BGAN service when they are in "marketing to people with boats" mode. A direct reference is made to BGAN in the "FleetBroadband Quick Guide" at the bottom of the Sailor 150 page linked in the quote above. I'm trying to play connect the dots with semi-overlapping information from several sites. If anyone knows of a page that details all of this concisely, I'd love to see it.

BlueRhapCity, thanks for the link. It does look like the Sailor 150 is a better antenna for marine applications than the apparently land/portable version I was looking at earlier, but the service might ultimately be the same. Out of the 10 browser tabs open, I see Inmarsat data rates listed everywhere from $3.XX per megabyte to $13.50 per megabyte. With that kind of disparity, I'm not confident that I'm getting good information from any of these price lists.

Thanks for the input so far!
__________________
Transforming from urban professional go global adventurer SailToTrail.com and exploring with only human, wind, and solar power.
sailtotrail.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2009, 23:21   #9
Registered User
 
Islander's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 166
This might do what you want, they charge by data quantity rather than connection time, and most plans also include talk time.

iridium OpenPort

Cheers.
__________________
Islander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-07-2009, 23:26   #10
Registered User
 
ka4wja's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 2,033
Internet at Sea, Iridium Open Port and Fleet Braodband

sailtotrail,
1) I posted very detailed info regarding these exact issues in a discussion on the SSCA board just a couple of weeks ago.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailtotrail.com View Post
If anyone knows of a page that details all of this concisely, I'd love to see it.
While, I cannot assure you that it will answer all your questions, it should give you the most comprehensive data out there....

Please have a look and post any further questions there...
SSCA Discussion Board • View topic - Satellite Internet Service?


2) Although I intially thought the same as Paul, since your original post seemed to indicate a lack of necessity for IP / Internet, and rather a need for excellent e-mail / data service.....
So, I too, would've recommended a MUCH less expensive route......but, then you're clarification showed a different requirement.....

3) After reading over the entire discussion on the SSCA board, I think you'll see your choices are either Iridium Open Port or INMARSAT Fleet Broadband......
Not knowing your exact requirements, or what your cost vs. benefit equation would work out to, it's difficult to be exact.....
But, my best guess is that Iridium Open Port is what would suit you the best.....(and perhaps even their se@COMM service would suffice...)

4) Just a few clarifications....

a) Iridium Open Port does use their low-earth-orbiting satellites, but it is NOT like their legacy Iridium phone service w/ data......and it can provide up to 128k full synchronous IP data service worldwide, without the need of stabilized antennas, etc....

b) BGAN is not designed for use at sea, on ships/boats, etc......Fleet Broadband is INMARSAT's lowest-cost high-speed IP data service for vessels at sea (very similar to BGAN, but not the same.....)
I know this doesn't make too much sense, but please read over the SSCA discussion for the details, and try to understand that you cannot always apply logic to INMARSAT, since they are governed by their int'l consortium w/ some unusual contractual restrictions.....

I hope this helps out....

John
__________________
ka4wja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2009, 00:42   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pacific Ocean, Brookings, Oregon USA
Boat: Coronado 25 (Don't tell her I'm shopping for an upgrade)
Posts: 32
@Islander

Good call on Iridium's Open Port. There's a bit of a somewhat speculative comparison between it and the Sailor 150/FleetBroadband system on the Panbo Blog.

@ka4wja

Yeah, that thread definitely has some great technical information and was quite helpful. Thanks!

That said, it appears to favor Open Port claiming it is significantly less expensive than FleetBroadband at "about $15 - $20/MB, plus a monthly fee".

Ocens.com sells both services and lists the price for FleetBroadband as:
Their chart for Iridium service is quite a bit more complex, but it actually seems more expensive at lower data levels, then drops off and becomes less expensive after you spend about $300 or more per month.

So... both of these look like pretty close competitors and could go either way based on the level of use. Then again, John/ka4wja brings up some good points about the technical pros and cons of the satellite networks that could sway the decision also.

I'm still interested in links to other listed prices for these services for the sake of verification and comparison if anyone has them. The FleetBroadband service was only launched something like a week or two ago, so more info will probably be popping up regularly. And as always, all of the prices are bound to fluctuate.

Side Note: As an internet marketer for 5+ years, I give the satellite communications industry as a whole a failing grade for their refusal to provide pricing transparency without the endless "contact us for information" nonsense. If I have to put much more effort into learning about this stuff, I'll be forced to become a competitor to make up for my lost time.
__________________
Transforming from urban professional go global adventurer SailToTrail.com and exploring with only human, wind, and solar power.
sailtotrail.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2009, 17:01   #12
Registered User
 
ka4wja's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 2,033
Satellite Internet at Sea, Iridium Open Port or INMARSAT Fleet services

sailtotrail,
You're welcome.....I'm glad I could help....
(Just by luck did I happen by here, and saw your query....)

(And, yes, I'm very familar with panbo....Ben is a great source of info....)



But, sailtotrail, I am perplexed by something that you wrote....

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailtotrail.com View Post
I'm still interested in links to other listed prices for these services for the sake of verification and comparison if anyone has them.
1) You apparently DO have the pricing info for INMARSAT's Fleet Broadband, from Ocens.....(and Sailor, Thrane and Thrane, KVH, etc. pricing is easily available...)
And, I provided the pricing (and all other info) for Iridium Open Port, from Telaurus....

2) You're aware of what services exist, and their coverages / limitations.....and their prices.....


I'm not sure what else you require????
But, if you want opinion......that's easy....
Iridium Open Port is the way to go, for internet access at sea, in my opinion.....

But, sailtotrail in your case, I'd not recommend either.....
Huhh???
There are numerous other things to think about, when planning offshore sailing / ocean crossings on 25' sailboat....internet at sea, in my opinion doesn't even come close to making the list....
Furthermore, I'm not sure if you'd have the space on board for either the terminal (below-deck unit) or the antenna/transceiver (above-deck unit), let alone the electrical capacity to run this equipment.....
So, in my opinion, I'd consider either a re-evaluation of your sailing/cruising/voyaging plans on your 25' boat, or consider a larger boat....or perhaps a combination of both ideas????


3) And, please don't take this personally.......
But, I hope everyone will understand that these products/services (Open Port and Fleet Broadband, etc.), in addition to being technological "miracles", are certainly expensive, targeted at a VERY narrow (and deep-pocket) niche market, and NOT designed for the "cheap-retail-mass-market"......
Those that wish to paint the entire global satellite communications industry, with a broad brush of a "failing grade" simply becasue certain expensive niche market service providers want to make sure their customers are properly informed and given the info that applies to their customer's application, isn't really fair!!!
These are expensive, feature-rich (and somewhat complex) systems and services, which do not lend themselves to a retail-website-type of explanation.....but, they DO provide very detailed info on their services on their respected websites, and refer you to their distributors/re-sellers for exact pricing detail.....
(Is this significantly different from looking at the Ford, Chevy, or Chrysler websites and then being refered to your car dealer for exact pricing /availability???)

A quick e-mail or phone call to Telaurus (or Ocens) will get you a returned call, and very detailed information......there will be NO hard-sell, and NO urgency.......they will talk to you and answer whatever questions you have......

Satellite communications products and services for vessels at sea are NOT new....they've been available for MANY years, even internet IP services at sea have been around for quite a few years......and while the costs, complexities, and power requirements have come down significantly in the past 30 years, these are still niche products / services....and are not conducive to an instant-retail-style / "shopping-cart-type" marketing.....especially on their websites.....

{If my comments here seem harsh......they are NOT meant to be.... Some may think having made my living owning/operating my own satellite communications company for more than 25 years, makes me defend the industry too enthusiastically, however, I'm just trying to explain the facts and reasons that these services are not like buying DISH Network or Directv......}



Just my thoughts.....

I hope I helped, but can't see anything else I can contibute, so.....
Fair winds to all.....

John
__________________
ka4wja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-07-2009, 19:17   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pacific Ocean, Brookings, Oregon USA
Boat: Coronado 25 (Don't tell her I'm shopping for an upgrade)
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
2) You're aware of what services exist, and their coverages / limitations.....and their prices.....

I'm not sure what else you require????
I require nothing further, but wanted to leave things open-ended in case anyone happened upon the thread and had a tidbit of info to share. As far as Inmarsat goes, I only have one price, and I don't think it's the whole story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
There are numerous other things to think about, when planning offshore sailing / ocean crossings on 25' sailboat.... internet at sea, in my opinion doesn't even come close to making the list....
...not sure if you'd have the space on board...
...consider either a re-evaluation of your sailing/cruising/voyaging plans on your 25' boat, or consider a larger boat....or perhaps a combination of both ideas????
You have simultaneously read my mind and looked into the future. Evaluation and conclusions similar to yours were reached some time ago. I'll not be making any extended blue water passages on the 25 footer. There's barely room for me, let alone all the gear. She is/was my first, but I've been shopping for a new mistress for a couple months. I wanted to to know whether I'd need to drop $1K or $10K on communications equipment so I can make informed decisions on all fronts.

----The following, while interesting to me, is off-topic for anyone wishing to tune out now. This is an entirely different conversation that I'd be happy to discuss with anyone off-forum, but it's way off topic, so I'm not counting on it. ----

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
Those that wish to paint the entire global satellite communications industry, with a broad brush of a "failing grade" simply becasue certain expensive niche market service providers want to make sure their customers are properly informed and given the info that applies to their customer's application, isn't really fair!!!
Thankfully, I am not one of those people. The technology side of the industry enthralls me. The fact that these things exist is cooler than Harry Potter's magic. I find the technologies to be amazing and the prices commensurate with amazing technology. While I'd absolutely love for the prices to be lower, I don't find them unreasonable.

Now as far as the retail marketing channels and their websites in general... Fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
...they DO provide very detailed info on their services on their respected websites, and refer you to their distributors/re-sellers for exact pricing detail..... (Is this significantly different from looking at the Ford, Chevy, or Chrysler websites and then being refered to your car dealer for exact pricing /availability???)
Now that you mention it, I'm the former Internet Marketing Director and Marketing Director of a Chevy dealership. I'm currently head of an ad agency working daily in digital/online as well. As such, I don't feel out of my depth discussing this like I do stumbling through the technological learning curve of satellite tech.

My comments about the way they these systems and services are marketed were in reference to the dealers, not originally directed at the manufacturers. But now that you mention it, I don't think it's even a little unreasonable to expect that the manufacturers would at the very least publish an MSRP.

They didn't though, they tried to sales pitch us. Mark your calendars... an advertising guy speaking out against sales pitches. From the Inmarsat press release: "The award-winning FleetBroadband service is the first maritime communications solution to provide cost-effective broadband data and voice, simultaneously, through a compact antenna on a global basis.... at an affordable rate...” Don't tease us with a mess of price related jargon without some idea of the real price. That's all I ask of the manufacturers.

"The consumer isn't a moron; she is your wife. You insult her intelligence if you assume that a mere slogan and a few vapid adjectives will persuade her to buy anything. She wants all the information you can give her." -David Ogilvy

In my quest for answers about this topic (elsewhere on the internet) I have been generally disappointed by two things:
  1. The lack of concise and/or well organized information.
  2. Difficulty in obtaining prices and vague details of services accompanying the few prices I was able to find.
It has been my experience (which I doubt is unique in this case) that the lack of transparency in pricing is commonly (no, not always) an attempt to protect high profit margins. This has the negative effect of eroding trust in the customer's mind, and therefore ends up making the process more difficult for both sides.

John, I took none of what you said personally and very much appreciate your input on all of this. You have been quite helpful and continue to have my thanks.
__________________
Transforming from urban professional go global adventurer SailToTrail.com and exploring with only human, wind, and solar power.
sailtotrail.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-07-2009, 17:23   #14
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
So, what I would do: put a unix/linux/freeBSD box somewhere in a datacenter with a modem and phone-line. I would use 4 different protocols:

- text-terminal, like VT100. Now I can use every Unix/Linux command line utility incl. chat, ftp etc.

- UUCP for email, usenet, file transfers. This allows the most optimal compression.

- PPP with TCP/IP on top for when I just want IP.

But I was (am?) a geek. I could use any communications options that connects to the regular phone network and allows modem connections, choosing the cheapest one when available (which is GSM 90% of the time).

All that in addition to a good wifi system aboard.

cheers,
Nick.


cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2009, 10:38   #15
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Dont agree with you ka4wja The sat comms industry is deliberately avoiding publishing rates. Even simple things like iridium airtime can be difficult to research on the web. Saying its all very technical and hence you need to talk to a human is nonsense, the Internet has debunked this many times ( like airline FLIGHT pricing models for example).
__________________

__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
satellite

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Satellite Internet For Online Business (Someone has to buy the booze) Sailor Amy Marine Electronics 7 07-03-2009 21:48
Interesting perspective on Somali pirates jackdale Indian Ocean & Red Sea 25 07-01-2009 04:28
Sailing Costs from a Different Perspective MaineCub General Sailing Forum 9 27-07-2007 11:45
Numbers BC Mike Health, Safety & Related Gear 17 02-04-2006 15:05
Hull I.D. Numbers GordMay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 0 11-04-2003 19:14



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:27.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.