Geofencing on sea, remote power management?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by travellerw

Wow.. Please let me quote on your next electonics engineering job. I also own some property in Detroit you might be interested in.

It sounds like a good solution for trolling.

[hellosailor]

traveller-
My experience is that finding competent programmers and electronics engineers, not eve good ones or great ones, but simply COMPETENT ones, is a good trick. $150 an hour for someone who can design a system, spec the hardware, build the actual thing (and presumably some spares) and supply documentation so it can be fixed if they are hit by a truck...$60,000 would buy about ten weeks of their time. Oh wait, you expect them to buy and assemble hardware...So maybe seven or eight weeks.
No, it shouldn't be that expensive, but finding the right people can be impossible. Some years ago I needed some custom work done in Excel. No big deal, right? In a major east coast city, crawling with techies. So I called the temp agency and said "Here's what it MUST do, we're figuring four hours should cover it." A week later, their "best" Excel guy delivered a bill for two days of work, and a product that just didn't do the job we'd asked for. I rolled up my sleeves (being a Lotus user, I figured Excel couldn't hurt too badly) and actually wrote the project from scratch in under four hours.
Yeah, you go find good help. Anywhere, at any price. Someone on the other side of the world will gladly do it in six weeks for $2500 plus parts, the trick is, can you find them?

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by gzs

Problem solved, Garmin has indeed that alarm wire, easy to connect to a horn, a lamp, or anything else via relay...

Send a $20,000 bill to hellosailor. You came in under budget and under time.

LOL!

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

traveller-
My experience is that finding competent programmers and electronics engineers, not eve good ones or great ones, but simply COMPETENT ones, is a good trick. $150 an hour for someone who can design a system, spec the hardware, build the actual thing (and presumably some spares) and supply documentation so it can be fixed if they are hit by a truck...$60,000 would buy about ten weeks of their time. Oh wait, you expect them to buy and assemble hardware...So maybe seven or eight weeks.
No, it shouldn't be that expensive, but finding the right people can be impossible. Some years ago I needed some custom work done in Excel. No big deal, right? In a major east coast city, crawling with techies. So I called the temp agency and said "Here's what it MUST do, we're figuring four hours should cover it." A week later, their "best" Excel guy delivered a bill for two days of work, and a product that just didn't do the job we'd asked for. I rolled up my sleeves (being a Lotus user, I figured Excel couldn't hurt too badly) and actually wrote the project from scratch in under four hours.
Yeah, you go find good help. Anywhere, at any price. Someone on the other side of the world will gladly do it in six weeks for $2500 plus parts, the trick is, can you find them?

I think your time estimates are WAY out to lunch.

Its all about the client being educated. With todays resources and open source hardware, what the OP asked for is not a difficult thing. Frankly, it would be pretty trivial for people with the knowledge (there is probably 30 people on this board that could do it in under 20 hours work).

However, if the OP is asking for a commercial solution that will make him money, then yes, the price will be higher (which it appears he is). I still don't think it would run anywhere near $60K

[hellosailor]

Right, just connect the alarm wire. And make it dial a satphone. Oh, yeah, and what happened to the requirements for remote access and kill? There's a lot more work to be done on that system. Niggling little details like that often result in major delays and changes in projects.

People on this board who can write code and build electronics from scratch? And do it with rock-solid reliability? Maybe there are 30 here, ask them for guaranteed quotes, with penalties for late delivery.

While you're at it, I need someone to fix my tape deck for less than $500.

[smac999]

Pretty easy to turn off the Garmin screen...

[zboss]

Hide the garmin. Have a second one on the console.

[Dymaxion]

Seems to me the newer VHS radios having GPS and DSC that can be 'pinged' to transmit their cords to the radio requesting. Each radio has it's MMSI unique to the boat it's on. So install a decent radio on each of your rentals and ping them from your base radio. (May be a legal issue there in that radios are normally afloat or you're considered to be running a radio station) You're going to need to connect the base station polling results into software for the geofencing side. But I bet one of the open-cpn gurus on this forum could handle that for a reasonable fee. Limited of course by range of the VHF radios involved.

[Cadence]

I feel sure it can be done. It sounds like possibly a rental boat idea. I'd make sure a good contract had been signed an you had one hell of a lot of insurance.

[hellosailor]

"So install a decent radio on each of your rentals and ping them from your base radio. "
Truck drivers, cab drivers, all sorts of ordinary people who don't want to be tracked by Mother, have all learned a long time ago "just turn it off" or put tinfoil over the GPS, and voila, there's no tracking. One clever trucker who kept using a GPS jammer to stop his dispatcher from watching him, kept running past Newark NJ airport. And eventually the FAA and FCC got together the man got one hell of a surprise form the enforcement folks.

So...anything simple enough to defeat by turning it off, isn't going to stop folks who want to go outside the fence. An effective package will need to be independent of anything that can be turned off manually, at the breaker box, the nav station, wherever.

If there was cell phone coverage (which apparently there won't be) it would be a simple matter to put a buried cell phone on the boat, with geotracking software. But that still wouldn't provide the remote control ability.

A compromise might be to simply not use technology for that. Just tell the customer, if you go outside the area, the USCG will be called and told the boat has been stolen. That's a pretty effective "remote control" too.(G)

[ka4wja]

Zsolt,
1) I'm going out on a limb here and assume 5 things:
a) You're legit...asking these questions....and are not trolling??
b) Your proposed "business" is not in the US, nor other first world country??
c) You're fully aware of the operating range of VHF radio (marine or otherwise hi-band VHF), and the area where these boat would venture would always be within 100% reliable VHF range?? (preferably easy line-of-sight of your base station antennas)
d) You will hire a competent marine electronics guy to install, commission, and implement this entire system....
e) You will hire a consulting engineer up-front to provide the design for you, and for your financial folks / banker, and your insurance underwritters....yep, it will cost you $1000/day to $2000/day for a couple days, for the design/plan/report, but overall it's a very small part of the investment)


2) So, with those assumptions....your answers/solutions are rather easy, and you could use readily-available, reliable, and off-the-shelf equipment/components/devices to do as you desire...


3) As you've already been informed, you can define alarm zones / guard zones, on some chartplotters...so your customers can easily see where they are at, where they need to go, etc., and where they cannot go...


4) You can quite easily track all of your rental vessels with AIS transponders....all wired directly to the boat's battery system (with a well-hidden fuse that you insert at the beginning of each day), so that the AIS transponder is always transmitting, as long as the boat's battery bank has juice.....(or, at the very least, wired into the ignition circuit of the boat's 70-hp Yamaha, so that as long as the engine is on, they're being tracked)


5) As for "remote-controlling" of the engine's ignition circuit....
Yes, this is quite easily done....but do not use the vessel's primary VHF radio for this (in addition to the ability to "turn it off", etc. you don't want to mess with this basic safety / communications device)
Again, off-the-shelf components and radios are available....and reliable...(I've used some models for dozens of years....few changes over those years, 'cuz they just work, and work well!)



6) I'm not angling for the job....not at all...
But, I will go no further here...'cuz you need to decide if you're serious and if you cannot hire a professional consultant, but rather are here on Cruiser's Forum looking for free advice, well then any professional will see this as a "tire-kicking" discussion, and not a serious prospect...

Zsolt, please understand, all I write here is true and very do-able....but no professional consultant is going to do more than I just did, unless you're paying 'em!


7) Now, as for the legalities??
Yes, I think you will need to consult legal counsel about this....making sure they have experience in both admiralty law and liability....and of course experience in the nation/location of your proposed business...



8) Finally....while I agree that whatever technology is used to track and remotely-control the boat's engine needs to be fairly difficult to disable....not sure the rest of what hellosailor recommends would be of too much help....as I'm pretty sure this is not going to be in US waters, and probably few customers would be aware of the USCG...
Of course, if this was in the US, and most customers were US-citizens, in addition to mentioning the USCG will come and arrest them, perhaps a reminder of the "shoot-first and ask much later" approach of both USCG and DHS...they're always looking for potential threats, and a stolen boat could be a threat to port security...

Originally Posted by hellosailor

...anything simple enough to defeat by turning it off, isn't going to stop folks who want to go outside the fence. An effective package will need to be independent of anything that can be turned off manually, at the breaker box, the nav station, wherever.

A compromise might be to simply not use technology for that. Just tell the customer, if you go outside the area, the USCG will be called and told the boat has been stolen. That's a pretty effective "remote control" too.(G)

So, Zsolt, there you go....
Yes, it can be done....it isn't rocket science, but you will need to hire some professionals to design the system....
BTW, not knowing where in the world this would be, we cannot give you anything more than a general idea, based on US equipment costs/shipping, etc...in addition to the primary VHF radio and antenna, and whatever cost of chartplotter, etc....figure about $1500-$2000 USD more per boat,(including AIS, antennas, radio, remote-controller, wiring, etc.), plus design and install labor...
Plus your "base station" equipment (1000's of dollars)...
Remember, this is a very general estimate....your mileage may vary!
{these costs here, are all very reasonable....and less than one 70-hp outboard (which sells for about $10,000 USD), so in all honesty, it's damn cheap!}

Fair winds..

John

[gzs]

Guys, thank you again for all the comments, especially those turning my attention towards safety/responsibility/legal side of the project. I know that all your concerns are well meant and believe me, I'm focusing on safety aswell.

It will be a rental operation, safety boat always present to supervise (VHF range no problem), operational perimeter within a protected area with no marine traffic, location not US.

The reason for the perimeter alarm is to assisst the driver. On the screen he can see the boundaries. When he exits those boundaries, there will be a clear notification and since it seems the whole project will be based on an electric drive system, the output (speed) can be easily limited via the electric throttle's fly by wire relay. The system's manufacturer already confirmed, that it can be done without a problem.

The same for the kill switch, which is only a last resort, as said before, if your customer drives recklessly or turns into collision course with the safety boat.

The whole operation is supervised, safety boat always within 1km range.

Thank you all!

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by gzs

Guys, thank you again for all the comments, especially those turning my attention towards safety/responsibility/legal side of the project. I know that all your concerns are well meant and believe me, I'm focusing on safety aswell.

It will be a rental operation, safety boat always present to supervise (VHF range no problem), operational perimeter within a protected area with no marine traffic, location not US.

The reason for the perimeter alarm is to assisst the driver. On the screen he can see the boundaries. When he exits those boundaries, there will be a clear notification and since it seems the whole project will be based on an electric drive system, the output (speed) can be easily limited via the electric throttle's fly by wire relay. The system's manufacturer already confirmed, that it can be done without a problem.

The same for the kill switch, which is only a last resort, as said before, if your customer drives recklessly or turns into collision course with the safety boat.

The whole operation is supervised, safety boat always within 1km range.

Thank you all!

Thanks for the additional data. It puts a whole different light on what you intend to use it for. Good luck I hope it works out.

[TravellingKiwis]

Havee you looked at vesper Marine equipment. They have a virtual geofencing AIS solution which they used for America's cup and other races. Wouldn't do the engine off bit but may do the rest. They seem to be a pretty innovative company. I have no relationship to them and haven't bought there product yet but almost certainly will get their smart AIS solution later this year.

[gzs]

Thanks for the idea!

"Using the international AIS standard, the Virtual AIS Station allows you to remotely create electronic “marks”. These marks are called “Virtual Aids to Navigation” (VAtoN) or virtual marks or virtual buoys. They are visible to any vessel with AIS enabled equipment."

This solution sounds good for big events like sailing races etc... but I'm not sure the local authorities would let a relatively small rental operator create virtual marks that are visible to everyone. Certainly good to know that such a thing exists, because it is another possible safety feature.

Thanks for bringing it up!