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Old 21-12-2011, 15:50   #61
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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ICOM actually recommended using the keelbolts for a ground, because I have a wood mast and non of the stays come in contact with any other stays I was told I don't need insulators on my boat (my back stay is actually 15 meters).
I saw a pair of stay lock insulators for sale in a marine surplus store, lady wanted $40 for them (she really didn't even know what they were).
The bottom line; boaters want a radio for emergencies that works and the CG and FCC don't care how you set up your radio if it saves lives. The 802 is by far the best (once it's been "adjusted").
ICOM support sucks. Don't believe any of what they publish; it's all but hogwash. Read the "The ICOM Radio for IDI-Yachts" (the latest print). The second antenna as well as grounding (and a whole lot of extras) are explained. Even ICOM recommends this publication.
Since we've purchased and read this manual, we've purchased the ICOM 802 (ICOM CS-M802) software and relative hardware. Our radio now smokes after "optimizing" the 802's designed functions.
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Old 21-12-2011, 16:54   #62
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Re: general cost of SSB install

Icom have a generally good reputation. Although it can be said that their choice of the 15.0 VDC rated capacitors across the nominal 14.4V input of the 706 radios violated every rule of equipment design. (Electrolytic caps are manufactured within a 10% voltage tolerance, so a definite number of 15V rated parts will actually fail at 13.5 volts, and the folks who make 'em say to use caps that are rated at fully double the possible supply voltage, i.e. this should have been a 30V rated part at least, by all industry players and standards, and yes, there were failures.)

Still, their users are generally loyal and they sell big market share.

Ask Tesla about grounding.<VBG>
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Old 21-12-2011, 17:10   #63
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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Icom have a generally good reputation. Although it can be said that their choice of the 15.0 VDC rated capacitors across the nominal 14.4V input of the 706 radios violated every rule of equipment design. (Electrolytic caps are manufactured within a 10% voltage tolerance, so a definite number of 15V rated parts will actually fail at 13.5 volts, and the folks who make 'em say to use caps that are rated at fully double the possible supply voltage, i.e. this should have been a 30V rated part at least, by all industry players and standards, and yes, there were failures.)

Still, their users are generally loyal and they sell big market share.

Ask Tesla about grounding.<VBG>
watt?
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Old 22-12-2011, 07:11   #64
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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Icom have a generally good reputation. Although it can be said that their choice of the 15.0 VDC rated capacitors across the nominal 14.4V input of the 706 radios violated every rule of equipment design. (Electrolytic caps are manufactured within a 10% voltage tolerance, so a definite number of 15V rated parts will actually fail at 13.5 volts, and the folks who make 'em say to use caps that are rated at fully double the possible supply voltage, i.e. this should have been a 30V rated part at least, by all industry players and standards, and yes, there were failures.)
While there are 15v electrolytics, it is not a common size, 16v is and they are still used in lots of Icom equipment including the M802 which has lots of them on the 13v supply rail. The 10% tolerance rating you refer to is the capacitance tolerance, not the voltage. The voltage rating is the max peak voltage that may be continuously applied over the rated temperature range. Electrolytics can generally withstand extreme overvoltage transients. While military and space applications typically use a 50% voltage derating, marine radio's are fine with 10% and even no derating if the temp is under 45C.

Eric
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Old 22-12-2011, 08:07   #65
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Re: general cost of SSB install

16V capacitors is standard for consumer devices to be connected to 12V DC battery systems.

However, when one would use 25V capacitors instead, typical increase of lifespan of the capacitor around 10x (depending on manufacturer, a real bad one is only 2x while top quality can be 60x as long life span).

So, for a SSB radio with 16V capacitors, typical life span would be 20 years. A radio with 25V capacitors can be expected to last at least 40 years. That sounds all nice and fine, but a percentage of capacitors fail early so you can have bad luck with it. It can be worse, a percentage fails when they are new, which is why it's good to do a burn-in test (keep radio on for a week or so). Check out the graph below:


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Old 22-12-2011, 09:59   #66
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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So, for a SSB radio with 16V capacitors, typical life span would be 20 years.
Based on how many hours a day of use?
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Old 22-12-2011, 11:13   #67
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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Based on how many hours a day of use?
The statistical average for consumer devices, whatever that is and if that is also applicable for our SSBs... for those of us with "radio widows" it might be less but I assume for most we can pretty well count on those 20 years. Still, I see older radios now and then and also people buying older 2nd hand radios !

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Old 22-12-2011, 13:18   #68
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Re: general cost of SSB install

This brings up a good point to those who advocate connecting your SSB directly to the battery. Without a switch/breaker in the power feed, just because the radio is turned off, doesn't mean it's truely "off". In the case of the 802, it still draws about 100ma and there is circuitry including electrolytic caps that will have power applied 24/7. Not a good thing IMO.

Eric
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Old 22-12-2011, 13:50   #69
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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Originally Posted by fairbank56 View Post
This brings up a good point to those who advocate connecting your SSB directly to the battery. Without a switch/breaker in the power feed, just because the radio is turned off, doesn't mean it's truely "off". In the case of the 802, it still draws about 100ma and there is circuitry including electrolytic caps that will have power applied 24/7. Not a good thing IMO.

Eric
Who would do this any way? Chances are if you have a $1000 piece of electrical equipment you are going to put a breaker between it and its power source.
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Old 22-12-2011, 14:05   #70
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Re: general cost of SSB install

Guys, I can't tell you other than it was a leading brand name USA cap manufacturer who told me the voltage rating also was *nominal* and never to exceed 90% of it.

Also bear in mind, there's usually no spike protection in the factory setup, but if the radio is connected to the mains while the starter or atlernator are cutting in and out--they may be exposed to spikes ~200VDC. Or 600VDC if there is a "truck" size engine involved, and similarly rated parts. That's directly from the folks at LumiLED, who warn automotive manufacturers that there is no warranty on their pricey prime LEDs if they are not used with proper spike protection in a vehicle.

Unbusted, IIRC the typical Icom radio installation instructions call for wiring up directly to the battery in a vehicle, and using the (usually supplied) fuse(s) in one or both legs of the power wiring. They fuse the ground side as well, to prevent damage from accidental ground loops. (Oddly enough, this IS a possible way to damage a radio.)

Not that a breaker is a bad idea, but fuses are of course cheaper, promote shorter wire runs (no need to divert to the panel), and can be had in faster-blow varieties.
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Old 22-12-2011, 14:43   #71
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The battery is the spike protection. It's a real big cap. It's the reason they tell you to connect the power wires straight to the battery.

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Old 22-12-2011, 15:06   #72
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Re: general cost of SSB install

In theory, if you wire directly, sure. I'd still rather install spike protection on anything that might get upset, it is cheap enough insurance.
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Old 22-12-2011, 15:36   #73
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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The battery is the spike protection. It's a real big cap. It's the reason they tell you to connect the power wires straight to the battery.

cheers,
Nick.
Batteries do have a certain amount of internal resistance (higher with older batteries) and inductance, which puts a limit on how well they can clamp transients and shunt high frequency noise. For that reason I also put 16 volt TVS diodes across my radio power leads. Helps protect against transients - though not RFI.
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