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Old 20-12-2011, 17:38   #46
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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Originally Posted by fairbank56 View Post
The frequency stability of the 710 is much better than 10Hz. It is only stated that way because the rules call for it to be 10Hz or better. The 480's spec with the TCXO is .5ppm for -10C to +50C and 1ppm for -20C to +60C. The marine radio must pass rigid certification requirements. It must be within 10hz over a temp range of -30C to +60C and is tested at intervals of 10C throughout the temp range in an environmental chamber and the voltage input is varied from 85% to 115% of nominal voltage. It is tested at low, mid and high frequencies with the high being 27.5Mhz The radio is first "soaked" for 12 hours at -30C without power applied and must be within spec 3 minutes after power is applied. At the low and mid frequencies, the stability over the full temp range was within 2Hz and within 6Hz at 27.5Mhz. I doubt any ham radio with a TCXO would pass these tests to meet certification.

Eric
G'Day Eric,

Those are indeed rigorous test environments, and I agree that few ham rigs would meet them.

But, I wonder if they have much relevance to the use of a ham rig on marine frequencies. I rather seldom use my radios at either -20 or +60 degrees C, and I tend to let my rig (Icom 746 with the xtal oven) warm up a couple of minutes before I transmit on the ham bands. Checking against WWV has shown accuracies in the order of +/- 3 Hz over the years, but I realize that this isn't the greatest means of testing.

On the other hand, once again I have to question if being off frequency by a few herz will cause disturbances to others should the rig be used on the marine frequencies. Equally, in the case of use at sea, I wonder if having slightly greater spurious emissions will compromise other traffic in a meaningful way. This has been discussed at length before, but I have still not heard of a specific observation of interference not due to local overloading (as in a crowded anchorage).

As a law abiding type, I will continue to follow the rules, but I will also continue to question the validity of said rules in the real world. And I will continue to have the ability to use my ham rig on any available frequency in an emergency. In our 25 years of cruising I have fortunately not had this opportunity arise, but have participated in other's desperate communications a few times (non-hams on the ham bands).

And BTW Eric, thanks for your many technically astute contributions to this forum. You are one of the few whose words on things electronic are worth really paying attention to.

Cheers and 73 de Jim N9GFT/VK4GFT
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Old 20-12-2011, 18:39   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairbank56

The frequency stability of the 710 is much better than 10Hz. It is only stated that way because the rules call for it to be 10Hz or better. The 480's spec with the TCXO is .5ppm for -10C to +50C and 1ppm for -20C to +60C. The marine radio must pass rigid certification requirements. It must be within 10hz over a temp range of -30C to +60C and is tested at intervals of 10C throughout the temp range in an environmental chamber and the voltage input is varied from 85% to 115% of nominal voltage. It is tested at low, mid and high frequencies with the high being 27.5Mhz The radio is first "soaked" for 12 hours at -30C without power applied and must be within spec 3 minutes after power is applied. At the low and mid frequencies, the stability over the full temp range was within 2Hz and within 6Hz at 27.5Mhz. I doubt any ham radio with a TCXO would pass these tests to meet certification.

Eric
Even if the 710 stays within 1Hz when sprayed with napalm, the requirement is still just within 10Hz. The simple thing is that cruisers who use a ham radio on marine freqs, don't soak their radios in -30 deg C before using them, nor subject them to 90 degree temperature variations during use and thus either meet spec on the freqs they use for the cruiser nets, or are so close that only test equipment can detect it. The thing I wanted to demonstrate is that, even though it's not allowed, when they use their ham rig, they will not cause problems anywhere near what is sometimes suggested here on CF. I'll point to this thread next time it comes up

Because let's get realistic... what exactly happens when a radio is even 50Hz off frequency? We hear a bit higher or lower toned voice, that's all. The error is very small compared to channel width.

Also, I don't think that marine radios meet the spurious emission suppression requirements when they are modulated by Pactor modem. I'm pretty sure of that now that I understand that the 802 fails to meet requirements when speech compression is turned on. Pactor will take the radio well beyond that.

Edit: omg, Jim beat me by an hour haha.. I should furst read all posts before replying

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 20-12-2011, 19:54   #48
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Re: general cost of SSB install

During the spurious emission test, the radio is tested in both radiotelephony mode and wideband data mode. The emission limits are different for each. The point is, the marine radio service is for one thing and the amateur radio service is for another. Until you can purchase a ham radio that is certified for part 80 service (never going to happen IMO), you are in violation of federal laws by using a ham radio on the marine channels (except in distress of course). I guess those of you who use a ham rig on marine channels also don't have the required station license and operator permit? Why bother if your going to pick and choose the federal laws your going to follow. Heck, why bother getting a ham license either, or registering your boat...oh... wait a minute, I'll get caught if I do that, but I won't get caught using a ham radio on marine channels, so screw the federal laws and screw all the legit operators.

Eric
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Old 20-12-2011, 21:00   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairbank56
During the spurious emission test, the radio is tested in both radiotelephony mode and wideband data mode. The emission limits are different for each. The point is, the marine radio service is for one thing and the amateur radio service is for another. Until you can purchase a ham radio that is certified for part 80 service (never going to happen IMO), you are in violation of federal laws by using a ham radio on the marine channels (except in distress of course). I guess those of you who use a ham rig on marine channels also don't have the required station license and operator permit? Why bother if your going to pick and choose the federal laws your going to follow. Heck, why bother getting a ham license either, or registering your boat...oh... wait a minute, I'll get caught if I do that, but I won't get caught using a ham radio on marine channels, so screw the federal laws and screw all the legit operators.

Eric
Hold on Eric, got my Marcom A certificate here and a 710 besides the Kenwood Also, there is no federal law applicable outside US which I assume you mean. Nobody in the Caribbean cruising grounds cares much about radio laws.... bars advertise their happy hour specials on VHF16 for example... how does that compare with federal law? It's all just like CB here. Nobody is gonna wonder which radio I use on which band and even if they do wonder, they can't tell.

cheers,
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Old 21-12-2011, 00:40   #50
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Re: general cost of SSB install

OMG my thread has been hijacked by nerds! Guys read the thread title.

Which isn't to say I haven't found this discussion interesting just a tad off topic. There is a term in the live audio industry, "geeking out" which is what happens when a bunch of audio nerds get together and talk tech and completely scare off the opposite sex.

Quit geeking out!

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Old 21-12-2011, 00:40   #51
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Hold on Eric, got my Marcom A certificate here and a 710 besides the Kenwood Also, there is no federal law applicable outside US which I assume you mean. Nobody in the Caribbean cruising grounds cares much about radio laws.... bars advertise their happy hour specials on VHF16 for example... how does that compare with federal law? It's all just like CB here. Nobody is gonna wonder which radio I use on which band and even if they do wonder, they can't tell.

cheers,
Nick.
First off -- in the U.S.A. we are not talking about federal laws -- these are federal regulations. They do not fall under criminal law and are not enforced as such. They are enforced by license suspension, revocation, or fines. These regulations apply to all FCC licensed aircraft, vessels, and personal any where in the world.

Second -- I refer all to the 60 meter ham band. This is a channelized band very similar to the marine SSB bands.

Third -- the frequency stability (and other specs) of marine SSB transceivers are mostly related to their required installation on commercial vessels to meet safety at sea requirements. These radios must be ready to operate immediately, regardless of environmental conditions, by any member of the crew, and for many years. This is why Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillators (OCXO) are used in marine transceivers. A ham radio equipped with a Temperature Compensated Crystal Oscillator (TCXO) can certainly meet the short-term stability requirements needed to operate on a marine SSB channel.

Finally -- the great untold secret of radio communications -- there are large numbers of unlicensed operations going on all over the world. And, no one really cares as long as these operations don't impact legitimate communications. These operations include American citizens operating SSB on any clear frequency they can find. In Brazil, people living in the jungle use a US Navy satellite to communicate with each other, Others use the guard bands between the TV channels on communications satellites. And, to think this all started with the anarchy of the Citizen Band. Not!

Fortunately, because boaters have easy access to both ham and marine SSB licenses and equipment it is not necessary to resort to these kinds of unauthorized operations. I have hope that the FCC will someday recognize the safety at sea value of allowing the use of ham radios on the marine SSB channels by voluntary vessels.

.- .-.

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Old 21-12-2011, 02:37   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unbusted67
OMG my thread has been hijacked by nerds! Guys read the thread title.

Which isn't to say I haven't found this discussion interesting just a tad off topic. There is a term in the live audio industry, "geeking out" which is what happens when a bunch of audio nerds get together and talk tech and completely scare off the opposite sex.

Quit geeking out!

Sorry your on CF and you're complaining about thread drift !!!

Anyway nerds and geeks shall inherit the world. Remember that and we get all the good girls ( eventually after the IPO)

Dave
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Old 21-12-2011, 02:43   #53
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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Originally Posted by unbusted67 View Post
OMG my thread has been hijacked by nerds! Guys read the thread title.

Which isn't to say I haven't found this discussion interesting just a tad off topic. There is a term in the live audio industry, "geeking out" which is what happens when a bunch of audio nerds get together and talk tech and completely scare off the opposite sex.

Quit geeking out!

Hey there Unbusted,

Seems to me that your specific query was answered in the first few responses, with dollar values quoted for several different approaches to an SSB installation via the canonical methods.

Then the issue of using non-approved radios on marine freqs was brought up as a means of saving some money for the fiscally handicapped. Some of us nerds have been arguing about this for eons, and yes, once again the subject has arisen, and has yet to be fully resolved.

If this deviation from your original agenda has caused you grief, I for one apologize... but if it was resolved it might save you and many others a bunch of money. Actually, it does not seem likely in our lifetimes, but still, it isn't all that far from your subject.

Besides, nerdism is an uncontrollable malady, and we simply can't help ourselves. Oh mods, stop me before I obfuscate again...

Cheers, and good luck with your installation!

Jim
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Old 21-12-2011, 06:02   #54
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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Also, there is no federal law applicable outside US which I assume you mean.
According to the FCC, their regulations apply both for ships of U.S. registry that sail in international and foreign waters and for all marine activities in U.S. territory. If you are a U.S. vessel, you are bound by FCC rules no matter where you are. The rules in the code of federal regulations are administrative laws and are treated by the courts as being legally binding statutory law. It doesn't matter if your ham radio might be operating within part 80 certification requirements. It is not certified for marine use, so it is illegal to use it on marine channels. Again, if you want to pick and choose the rules you want to follow just because many others do, go for it.

Eric
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Old 21-12-2011, 09:12   #55
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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According to the FCC, their regulations apply both for ships of U.S. registry that sail in international and foreign waters and for all marine activities in U.S. territory.
AFAIK, foreign flagged vessels that comply with their own, foreign regulations are allowed in US waters, just as FCC regulated vessels are allowed in other nations waters. There's a big world out there... US is just a small percentage of it.

But enough of that, we're being called geeks and nerds already! Let's see if we can improve our reputation a bit:






ciao!
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Old 21-12-2011, 10:11   #56
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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AFAIK, foreign flagged vessels that comply with their own, foreign regulations are allowed in US waters, just as FCC regulated vessels are allowed in other nations waters.
And your point is????
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Old 21-12-2011, 10:28   #57
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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And your point is????
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According to the FCC, their regulations apply both for ships of U.S. registry that sail in international and foreign waters and for all marine activities in U.S. territory.
That this statement from FCC is wrong. And now I really stop like the OP has requested

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Old 21-12-2011, 12:12   #58
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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That this statement from FCC is wrong.
From the FCC website, "There is a common misconception that as long as a vessel is in international waters (beyond 12 miles from shore), it is outside FCC authority. But the truth is not so simple. As it turns out, geography has little to do with how the FCC determines jurisdiction" and "a U.S.-registered vessel is subject to FCC jurisdiction even if the vessel is in international waters or the vessel is communicating with a foreign port". When you're in International waters, you operate under the auspices of your FCC license. I think you are way off base when you state "there is no federal law applicable outside US". The same thing applies to your ham station. The FCC states "When an FCC licensed amateur is operating an amateur rig aboard a US-registered vessel in international waters, he or she must follow Part 97 of the FCC rules". It's not like your in no mans land and can do what you want. Certainly, ITU rules apply but you are also still operating under your FCC license's and are still expected to comply with FCC rules.

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Old 21-12-2011, 12:30   #59
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Re: general cost of SSB install

I say, "Live Free or Die" ~ I'll run my radio as I sees fit; come and get me.
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Old 21-12-2011, 12:45   #60
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Re: general cost of SSB install

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Originally Posted by msponer View Post
Hi, maybe some things you haven't thought of:

~$400 for two Sta-Lok insulators for your backstay
$250 Dynaplate (if you get one)
$300 Quick haul out for the Dynaplate
$30 for copper foil between your tuner and Dynaplate
$30 Circuit breaker
$30 Wire
$20 cable clam (for wire from your tuner to backstay)

The Dynaplate can be skipped. I had one, but I don't know if it did anything or how the radio would have worked without it.
ICOM actually recommended using the keelbolts for a ground, because I have a wood mast and non of the stays come in contact with any other stays I was told I don't need insulators on my boat (my back stay is actually 15 meters).
I saw a pair of stay lock insulators for sale in a marine surplus store, lady wanted $40 for them (she really didn't even know what they were).
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