Electronics -- System Architecture

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No, if I read the materials right, the i70 will output data to a regular Seatalk instrument - they even show an ST60 instrument. Very cool, very versatile piece of hardware, that i70.

What the i70 won't do, nor will the converter, is terminate analog sensors, you need either the correct ST60 display, a xducer pod, or the new ITC-5. The ITC-5 is N2k/STng and reasonably priced.

What I'm not sure of - if you leave analog sensors on the ST60 and (back)feed the i70, will the i70 repeat onto the STng/N2k network and be compatible with 3rd party N2k displays. IOW, can the i70 be a data source on the N2k network (the ITC-5 can do this, which is why I'm a fan of this unit)?

[colemj]

All of this talk of Seatalk, Seatalkng (and don't forget Seatalkhs and Seatalk2), xducer pods, ITC-5, etc all for simply getting Raymarine instruments to work well with others just reinforces my decision to keep all Raymarine gear off our boat.

Well, we do have a linear mechanical drive of theirs...

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks, I understand not to use heading data from the masthead mounted weather instrument. The Airmar uses its heading sensor to produce True Wind for weather station data, which I want -- very nice to be able to read true wind speed and direction -- and a graphic history of that from the night before -- when you get up in the morning and start planning your passage.

The GH2183 looks very cool, but why would I want that (combined GPS antenna and gyro compass) plus a Simrad compass?

I am inclined against the Simrad compass because it is far less accurate than the Airmar one, which seems to be the best gyrocompass you can buy for less than many thousands. I think that your gyrocompass really needs to be located near the roll and pitch center of the boat, so I would be inclined to use the H2183 in the location where the existing fluxgate is, and a separate simple GPS antenna on the rail.

If the problem with using a non-Simrad compass is just certification, then probably I don't care. If it actually doesn't work right with the Simrad pilot, then that's a different story. I'll try to find out.

A non-Simrad compass will work fine with the autopilot. I just noted for your information that Simrad will pass the buck on any problems if you are not using their compass. You also may have to "swing" the airmar compass during commissioning using Airmar's software instead of using the Simrad AP setup (but I don't have definitive information on that and do not think it is actually the case).

Our Simrad compass is not connected to the AP - it hangs on the backbone independently. All the PGN's shared between it and the AP are bog-standard ones - I don't see any proprietary communications between the two. So I am almost positive any standard rate compass will work with the AP.

I don't understand your point about true wind. True wind will be calculated whether your compass is integrated into your wind instrument or a separate below decks unit.

I also don't understand why you think true wind will be any different than apparent wind overnight while anchored/moored. If it is, you should be investing some money in better anchor gear!

If you like seeing true wind speed and direction, check out the B&G Triton displays - they present a true wind arrow along with the apparent wind arrow on the graphic, along with true wind direction and speed. The Triton also runs a rolling 60 minute graph of any parameter you wish - we keep one running for depth and true wind speed - helps to determine whether changes are only temporary or indicative of a trend.

Mark

[goboatingnow]

Couple of things Dockhead.


If you use N2k wind sensors your St60 units will not work as nothing you have will put the info back onto the Seatalk bus. To keep the st 60 wind working will need the sensor fed into the back of the st60 display. ( as will the st60 log)
I'd bite the bullet and go for n2k multifunction instruments. ( I'd question the need for two plotters anyway. )

Dave

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by colemj

All of this talk of Seatalk, Seatalkng (and don't forget Seatalkhs and Seatalk2), xducer pods, ITC-5, etc all for simply getting Raymarine instruments to work well with others just reinforces my decision to keep all Raymarine gear off our boat.

Well, we do have a linear mechanical drive of theirs...

Mark

Not attempting to defend RM, but a lot of this is their way of providing a path forward for their existing gear whereas others have simply abandoned their existing customer via engineering missteps. (Like Simrad NSO not working with older 0183 Simrad APs because of the brain-dead AT10).

The ITC-5 we've discussed in another thread, it allows one to use up to (5) RM analog sensors (compass, rudder, wind, depth, speed/temp) and present them as N2k. It saves $$ upfront plus given the failure rate of sensors, it's more cost effective to replace an analog sensor than a N2k sensor.

As vendors leap-frog each other, as of now, RM's latest chartplotters offer best bang for the buck, IMO. The E7, 9, 12, and now 16 offer everything/more than others offer (except the multi gesture touch control of TZTouch) for far less $$.

And RM's new support forum is surpassed by none (equaled, but none better). And a 3 year warranty!!

[DotDun]

The larger point is already been given. Abandon all things non-N2k.

If you are going to have RM STng/N2k displays, I find it reasonable to use the ITC-5 that allow RM analog sensors to become N2k. It save $$ and is easy.

[george123]

I have used the RM Seatalk to Seatalkng(NMEA 2000) with ST60+ instruments to the RM E120wide and it worked great. I would go with the NMEA 2000 for you system. I have used Simrad AP to drive Raymarine RAM on HR42. I have attached a system that I just finished installing. I used maretron cable (blue). THe customer really wanted the Furuno system as his display. I would change this to the RM c125 and use the iPad at the navstation.

George

[Shoalcove]

I installed a Simrad AC42 with a NKE hydraulic ram this spring. Simrad was quite clear that I needed the AC42 for that ram. It wasn't much more than the smaller version. IIRC Raymarine is similar with the X30 being able to power any type drive and the X10 being limited to type 1 drives.
The Simrad compass seems very good and is included in the package deal in North America. I don't see the advantage of paying more for a different one.
I'm setting up all my new electronics for NMEA2000 and find it very easy to install. A new w/s/d system can be had for @1500 around here if you decide to go completely with the new protocol.

[lateral]

Originally Posted by colemj

Y
Also, while the Simrad AP will work just fine without using the Simrad RC42 rate compass, Simrad will not guarantee the autopilot commissioning using another company's rate sender. The Simrad RC42 is a good rate compass and looks exactly like the Maretron one. Exactly enough that I think they are the same hardware. So you may want to consider using an RC42 instead. In the US, Simrad offers package deals on their AP's that are lower in price than the individual components.

Mark

Not as I understand the manuals. Simrad RC42 is fluxgate based with solid state rate gyro compensation.
Maretron is solid state 3 axis magnetometer, (no coils in fluid), with solid state rate gyro compensation and 2 axis accelerometers compensation.
In real terms, whether it will be noticable on your AP course I think will be moot.
H2183 is the same except with 3 axis accelerometers.
High latitudes & temperature might be the deciding factor on your choice.

How did the upgrade go DH?

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by colemj

All of this talk of Seatalk, Seatalkng (and don't forget Seatalkhs and Seatalk2), xducer pods, ITC-5, etc all for simply getting Raymarine instruments to work well with others just reinforces my decision to keep all Raymarine gear off our boat.

Well, we do have a linear mechanical drive of theirs...

Mark

+1 you'll spend a lot of money and a LOT of time dealing with adapters and dongles just to adapt Raymarine to a standard.

if you want the very best, the Zeus is it. If you want to go cheaper you could do a Simrad NSE or NSS on one or both of the displays.

My advice would be to forget 0183 as much as possible.

If you get a Em-Trak b100 AIS it will bridge NEMA 0183 onto its NEMA 2k network.

So will the Simrad displays. so if you have a few 0183 devices I think you'll be able to bridge them onto the network pretty easily. But in the design step try and avoid it where possible.

And at the end of the day you could convert 0183 or n2k to the st60's pretty easily.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by lateral

Not as I understand the manuals. Simrad RC42 is fluxgate based with solid state rate gyro compensation.
Maretron is solid state 3 axis magnetometer, (no coils in fluid), with solid state rate gyro compensation and 2 axis accelerometers compensation.
In real terms, whether it will be noticable on your AP course I think will be moot.
H2183 is the same except with 3 axis accelerometers.
High latitudes & temperature might be the deciding factor on your choice.

How did the upgrade go DH?

Oh, I'm still working on the design of the system. Boat's now out of the water with the mast out. I need to finish the design and list of equipment so that I can order it to arrive in time for Christmas, when I'll be in the States.

As to heading sensors: Everything I have read indicates the Maretron Airmar heading sensor is much more accurate than the Simrad or really anything else on the market which costs less than many thousands of dollars.

Accurate heading data is crucially important for useable MARPA, and is supposed to make a big difference in autopilot performance.

So I think I will definitely go with the Maretron Airmar.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by george123

I have used the RM Seatalk to Seatalkng(NMEA 2000) with ST60+ instruments to the RM E120wide and it worked great. I would go with the NMEA 2000 for you system. I have used Simrad AP to drive Raymarine RAM on HR42. I have attached a system that I just finished installing. I used maretron cable (blue). THe customer really wanted the Furuno system as his display. I would change this to the RM c125 and use the iPad at the navstation.

George

Thanks.

Yes, I'm quite enamored with N2K the more I read about it and I think I will eliminate non-N2K devices as much as possible.

My thinking now is to just use N2K wind instruments of one kind or another. I will have an extra hole in my scuttle since you don't need separate close-hauled wind instrument with the new devices (there's another thread on this), and I'll have an extra hole in the hull since the new speed/depth transducers are combined in one instrument. So what I might do is just leave the old depth transducer and the old wind instrument on the masthead, and leave two ST60+ devices where they are -- the regular wind instrument display, and the dedicated depth display. No need to interconnect this at all with the new network -- just let it be there as completely independent redundant wind and depth. I'll include a switch somewhere so I can switch it off if I'm out at sea without any need for that redundancy, and want to save power.

I'll then have two modern displays in the other two scuttle positions, which I will set to show wind and STW, or whatever I happen to need at the moment (they being so versatile).

N2K does so many more things than I realized before I started reading up on it that my list is growing, which will have a negative effect on my budget

I'm going to do bilge alarms on N2K, an engine monitoring harness for the Yanmar which will give RPM, oil pressure, coolant temp, and to complete the engine monitoring I will install an N2K raw water flow sensor. I am strongly tempted to put in a Maretron fuel flow sensor, although this is really an unecessary luxury on a sailboat for $1000.

With all this useful data on the network, I think about maybe a second Maretron MSD-250 at the helm, or maybe an ST70+, but man, the budget is ballooning . . . maybe I'll resist that temptation.

Still trying to figure out the best way to inject power into the N2K network (one of these http://www.actisense.com/Downloads/D...sue%201.01.pdf, so that I can switch off the Zeus units say at anchor when I still need weather and other data from the network?). I will be playing with the Maretron N2K Builder software to see if that helps me understand all this.

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Still trying to figure out the best way to inject power into the N2K network (one of these http://www.actisense.com/Downloads/D...sue%201.01.pdf, so that I can switch off the Zeus units say at anchor when I still need weather and other data from the network?). I will be playing with the Maretron N2K Builder software to see if that helps me understand all this.

WAY overkill. NMEA 2K has to have power on the backbone according to the spec anyway, so ALL of the inexpensive starter kits will get you there.

I like simrad/Lowrance's, because it's reasonably heavy duty and inexpensive. Gamin's is better made (maretron) but a lot more expensive.


View Product Lowrance NMEA 2000 Starter Kit

[Dockhead]

So the design is progressing, and what do you know -- in the middle of the process, B&G come out with a Zeus version of the Simrad NSS with touch screen, which will work with Navico's GoFree remote control by WiFi system.

Cool!

I would never want a touchscreen plotter, BUT-- it is $1000 cheaper than the non-touch screen version of the 12" MFD, AND the GoFree system allows you to totally control the MFD from an IPad, including turning the radar on and off, and viewing the radar images, and everything else. You can even control the autopilot from your IPad!

I have always wanted to have my laptop or an onboard PC tapped into the N2K network -- there is so much you can do with it. You can run OpenCPN, you can run weather programs, you can log data, you can mirror the MFD screen, and you get another screen you can run the OpenCPN plotter while you view radar full screen on the MFD, just for example.

Considering what you can now do with computers linked to the network, I would even take the 8" MFD, instead of the 12" one, for the nav table, except that the 8" MFD outputs video only at 800 x 600 versus 1024 x 768 for the bigger one. One plotter only at the helm, as some people do, is not an option for me -- I really need to let the helmsman have his own controlled MFD while I do my own thing at the nav table. Expensive, but that's the way I work on a longer passage.

So now I'm trying to figure out what computer setup to use. One variant is to just use a laptop. There's a lot to be said for this approach -- a laptop is already low power, self contained, simple to set up for this use. No need to mount a monitor. And my boat was built with a dedicated laptop tray which pulls out to use the laptop, pushes in to store it out of sight.

In that case, I could mount a bigger monitor (like a 32" HD TV) on the forward bulkhead, where I could display whatever instruments I want and keep an eye on what is going on when I'm below but not at the nav table. I could even display a video feed from a spreader mounted video camera so kind of even help keep watch.

OR, I could hard-wire in a mobile computer (have a good place for it behind the instrument panel), and put a monitor (say 23") on a stalk above the nav table. This would make for a bit better monitor. But I will largely lose the visibility of instrument data from all over the salon and galley. But on the other hand, I will avoid bastardizing my forward bulkhead by screwing a bloody TV to it -- something I don't much like the idea of to be honest (I could conceal it under a painting -- these devices are so thin now -- while not in use, maybe).

Any of you guys been through these questions? Any words of wisdom? I am particularly interested in people's practice of using PC navigation in parallel with a regular plotter.

[DeepFrz]

No ideas, but I am enjoying the process you are going through. Learning a lot about the latest and greatest electronic devices out there.