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Old 04-11-2015, 06:11   #46
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Here's what you want, based on ColeMJ's recommendation:

C-MAP 4D Full NA-D022 East Coast and Bahamas

That has the functions of Navionics Platinum (photos, harbor guides, 3D view, etc.) and covers a much wider area, for $270.

ColeMJ says the cartography is better, so this is a no-brainer. Looks like you just missed a $50 rebate!
I think ColeMJ said C-map was better in the Bahamas, due to C-map use of Explorer Charts
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Old 04-11-2015, 06:28   #47
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

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Originally Posted by sailjumanji View Post
I think ColeMJ said C-map was better in the Bahamas, due to C-map use of Explorer Charts
Indeed, and A64 needs the Bahamas.

I don't know what kind of charts A64 uses for planning. Maybe he uses paper, like I did until recently.

For planning, I have switched to electronic raster charts with OpenCPN and a large ultra high res screen, and am loving this very much. A64 could use the free NOAA raster charts with O and have a totally free system for planning.

For these waters, I am using the official "for navigation" raster charts from Visitmyharbour, which come with a year of free updates (and are dirt cheap anyway). I have all UK and Irish waters, English Channel, and North Sea, the whole set of which cost less than 100 pounds. Paper would have been thousands.
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Old 04-11-2015, 07:17   #48
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

I have an old Panasonic toughbook that I put an SSD in and run OpenCPN on for planning.
Good down below, not so good for in the cockpit, especially if wx is bad.
I have both Navionics and Garmin on the Ipad and the Garmin is much, much better and I think Garmin uses Explorer charts?
If Cmap is similar maps to Garmin's I definitely will go that route, especially since I can get the home cruising area on one chip, and foe well less than half the money.
That's what this sight is good for, without it I guess I'd have to go to WM and try to figure out platinum, platinum+ and the apparently different gold cards that there are too.

As far as the manual, thrust me I have been all through it. I have gotten disgusted with this thing, it wasn't as useable as the OLD Raymarine plotter it replaced and I was kicking myself for not going Garmin because as a Garmin dealer I can get it for personal use for less than dealer cost.

Oh and Steve Jobs was I believe the Marketing guy, it was Wozinak that was the brains?


I actually prefer paper for planning, you just cannot see on a computer screen what you can on a chart that you open up and it covers the whole table, but paper charts are like hens teeth anymore, when you can find them, be prepared to pay, because you may not see them again, and take care of them if you have them, they are becoming hard to replace it seems.
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Old 04-11-2015, 07:32   #49
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I have an old Panasonic toughbook that I put an SSD in and run OpenCPN on for planning.
Good down below, not so good for in the cockpit, especially if wx is bad.
I have both Navionics and Garmin on the Ipad and the Garmin is much, much better and I think Garmin uses Explorer charts?
If Cmap is similar maps to Garmin's I definitely will go that route, especially since I can get the home cruising area on one chip, and foe well less than half the money.
That's what this sight is good for, without it I guess I'd have to go to WM and try to figure out platinum, platinum+ and the apparently different gold cards that there are too.

As far as the manual, thrust me I have been all through it. I have gotten disgusted with this thing, it wasn't as useable as the OLD Raymarine plotter it replaced and I was kicking myself for not going Garmin because as a Garmin dealer I can get it for personal use for less than dealer cost.

Oh and Steve Jobs was I believe the Marketing guy, it was Wozinak that was the brains?


I actually prefer paper for planning, you just cannot see on a computer screen what you can on a chart that you open up and it covers the whole table, but paper charts are like hens teeth anymore, when you can find them, be prepared to pay, because you may not see them again, and take care of them if you have them, they are becoming hard to replace it seems.
Paper is supreme for planning, and I still use it. I have several hundred paper charts on board, stored under all the mattresses.

But a large high resolution screen with raster charts and OpenCPN starts to come close to paper. A laptop screen will not do -- nor can you do it with ordinary vector charts. But if you try good raster charts on a large screen, you may start to feel less nervous if you have to go somewhere where you don't have paper.
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Old 04-11-2015, 07:41   #50
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I have both Navionics and Garmin on the Ipad and the Garmin is much, much better and I think Garmin uses Explorer charts?



If Cmap is similar maps to Garmin's I definitely will go that route, especially since I can get the home cruising area on one chip, and foe well less than half the money.



Oh and Steve Jobs was I believe the Marketing guy, it was Wozinak that was the brains?
If you are talking tablet/phone apps, then yes, the Garmin contains the Explorer charts and the Navionics does not.

As for usability, the Garmin app is absolutely the worse I have run across, and I have pretty much tried them all. The ONLY thing the Garmin app has going for it (aside from the Explorer charts) is that they have visually beautiful representation of charts. We use it for planning purposes because of this (and the Explorer charts now that we are in the Bahamas again). But it is kind of expensive for just that usage.

However, as a navigational app, Garmin sucks big time. So bad as to be pretty much unusable. It takes zero connectivity, unless you have a compatible Garmin Chartplotter - so no ability to use your NMEA network data with it. Even with a compatible Garmin Chartplotter, there is no data available other than the external GPS position from it - no depth, wind, etc. There is no AIS functionality. There is no heading or COG line. There is no "look ahead" mode - the boat icon stupidly stays in the middle of the screen. If you put it in "heading up" mode, it reverts back to North up if you try to scroll around to look at something. There is no editing routes by waypoint position other than dragging the waypoint around. Once a route is made, there is no way to find out the positions of waypoints to write them down or transfer them to something else.

The list of how bad this app is just goes on and on and on…

Navionics is the second-worse app I have ever used, yet it is MILES ahead of the Garmin app. I would place the Navionics app in the category of "usable if you have to", but the Garmin app would have to be in the category "needs years of significant work to be barely usable at all".

But those charts are displayed so beautifully on it - particularly in the Bahamas.

If by CMap being similar Garmin, you mean that they contain the Explorer charts, then yes, this is true. But they do not display them the same way. Garmin is better at this. However, Garmin is not available on your chart plotter.

Woz was by far the nuts and bolts technical wizard of the two, but Jobs was the obsessive brains behind user interfaces and hardware usability and experience. It sounds like your B&G plotter missed Jobs more than Woz.

Mark
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Old 04-11-2015, 07:46   #51
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
A laptop screen will not do -- nor can you do it with ordinary vector charts. But if you try good raster charts on a large screen, you may start to feel less nervous if you have to go somewhere where you don't have paper.
I know we have disagreed about this in the past, but I still recommend you make these types of statements personal, and not general.

We, for example, have absolutely no issues with using vector charts on a laptop or tablet for planning. And we have been cruising around a lot of complicated places for the past 7 years using these tools.

We know very many people just like us, using the same planning tools on the same equipment in the same places who also prefer them and have no issues with them. Some of them on their second go around the world.

So consider adding "For me personally, …." to the front of these types of declarations.

Mark
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Old 04-11-2015, 08:29   #52
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I know we have disagreed about this in the past, but I still recommend you make these types of statements personal, and not general.

We, for example, have absolutely no issues with using vector charts on a laptop or tablet for planning. And we have been cruising around a lot of complicated places for the past 7 years using these tools.

We know very many people just like us, using the same planning tools on the same equipment in the same places who also prefer them and have no issues with them. Some of them on their second go around the world.

So consider adding "For me personally, …." to the front of these types of declarations.

Mark


Like everything any of us writes, it's JMHO. Obviously there are a great variety of opinions, and ways of working with charts.

But the OP here plans with paper charts, for the EXACT same reasons I did/do. He and I speak the same language (as you and I do not). So this particular remark was not only JMHO, relating to the way I work, but also directed specifically at the way HE works. So when I said ". . . vector charts won't do", I did not have so much in mind " . . for me", as I did ". . . for YOU, considering the way you work." Certainly, I never said ". . . for everyone". First and foremost, I was trying to be helpful to the OP, considering his way of working, which I understand perfectly, even if you do not.

Of course I could have approached it like this -- "A64, try such and such and such and such, and that should work better for you, considering the way you work, but that's just my opinion. For a different one, Mark over here will tell you that planning on your plotter works perfectly well, and that you are just imagining the various problems you have doing it that way, or that it's just your lack of skill. He will tell you at great length and argue forcefully that you don't need no stinking paper charts at all, nor any raster ones. Probably this will be as helpful to you, as it was to me in a previous discussion, but it is a point of view."
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Old 04-11-2015, 09:33   #53
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

My background is flying and back in the day we would get sectionals 1/250000 map scale I think or WAC 1/ million and lay them out and draw a course line with pencil on them, mark off distances and plan dead reckoning. Later learned how to do an "Australian fold" and make map books. Point being I guess is maybe because of all the work required of maybe just sheer scale, but paper you see more and miss less, there are no zooming errors etc. on paper, reefs and islands etc., don't disappear.

Now it's the 21st Century and I try and adapt, and one of the greatest inventions ever is a Kindle in my opinion, but if for example if you have a technical manual, having the thing in paper format and being able to flip through the pages just cannot be duplicated in my opinion with a computer screen. I'm old fashioned in that way I guess.

But, not so old fashioned that I won't have a plotter, just want decent maps on the plotter I guess.
Funny thing is I love the Garmin Blue chart app, because all I'm after really is the charts, all that other stuff is just fluff to me, the meat and potatoes is a good chart.
I hate the Navionics app, probably is much better than the Garmin, but the charts aren't, so it's a non starter for me, I've obviously not evolved enough to really use these apps and plotters, for me there are really just another way to show me a chart.
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Old 04-11-2015, 10:03   #54
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

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My background is flying and back in the day we would get sectionals 1/250000 map scale I think or WAC 1/ million and lay them out and draw a course line with pencil on them, mark off distances and plan dead reckoning. Later learned how to do an "Australian fold" and make map books. Point being I guess is maybe because of all the work required of maybe just sheer scale, but paper you see more and miss less, there are no zooming errors etc. on paper, reefs and islands etc., don't disappear.

Now it's the 21st Century and I try and adapt, and one of the greatest inventions ever is a Kindle in my opinion, but if for example if you have a technical manual, having the thing in paper format and being able to flip through the pages just cannot be duplicated in my opinion with a computer screen. I'm old fashioned in that way I guess.

But, not so old fashioned that I won't have a plotter, just want decent maps on the plotter I guess.
Funny thing is I love the Garmin Blue chart app, because all I'm after really is the charts, all that other stuff is just fluff to me, the meat and potatoes is a good chart.
I hate the Navionics app, probably is much better than the Garmin, but the charts aren't, so it's a non starter for me, I've obviously not evolved enough to really use these apps and plotters, for me there are really just another way to show me a chart.
I agree with the key point here that the IC chip with its enormous computing power has created a storm of "features" and ways to parse data.. most of it is hardly needed for most cruising applications.

What you want is an accurate chart... with your position on it... you course line, a heading line and the ability to set a waypoint and get basic data about it and your progress toward it. As sailboats often can't fetish the mark as power boats can... you need to do some manner of computation / navigation and planning. But heck... this is hardly precise stuff.

It would be nice if someone would make a kick ass plotter that the user could add the functionality that he needs and not have to navigate through levels and levels of menus... It reminds me of cameras or TVs... they are now so feature rich... it has become a barrier to all but the nerds and tech minded people.

What ever happened to KISS?
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Old 04-11-2015, 17:18   #55
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

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Funny thing is I love the Garmin Blue chart app, because all I'm after really is the charts, all that other stuff is just fluff to me, the meat and potatoes is a good chart.
Like I said, the Garmin app presents beautiful charts (vector charts). However, it is monstrously expensive for just that use. It certainly has very little navigational functionality.

And be aware that in certain areas of the world, those beautiful Garmin charts are down-right deadly. Literally. In the US and Bahamas, though, you will be OK with them.

I'm curious why you only want a chart display on a tablet and not any basic navigation functionality, basic connectivity or ability to plan routes and then actually see what those routes and waypoints are?

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Old 04-11-2015, 17:20   #56
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

Mark... At risk of thread drift.. Just wondering if you have ever used Insight-Planner. Any thoughts on it? Is it worth the $30!
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Old 04-11-2015, 17:37   #57
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

No. For clarity on this thread, we don't have a B&G plotter, although we have other B&G gear.

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Old 05-11-2015, 06:50   #58
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

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Oh yes, it does. One 12'' heading my way now for $1139:
B & G Zeus Touch T12 Touchscreen, Multifunction Display
I could have sworn there was one display that did not have any external knobs or buttons. Maybe I am thinking of Raymarine. Congrats on your new display, great price.
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Old 05-11-2015, 06:56   #59
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

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I could have sworn there was one display that did not have any external knobs or buttons. Maybe I am thinking of Raymarine. Congrats on your new display, great price.
Thanks!
Both the Vulcan and the Glass Helm comes without knobs:
Vulcan
Glass Helm
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Old 05-11-2015, 07:55   #60
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Re: Difference between B&G Zeus Touch and Zeus2?

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Well, they advertise "North American cartography included!"for all of them. Which is bullocks and false advertising. The Navionics Silver charts which are embedded are unsuitable for navigation. I'm sure that A64 was deceived by this.

We had a different experience with the Insight charts built into our Simrad NSS7. It was entirely good for our trip up and down the coast of the US from North Carolina, to Florida and Maine, both inland and offshore. It of course was useless in the Bahamas. It may have not been the prettiest, but it was accurate as we needed, 6'2" draft.

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