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Old 23-03-2019, 04:40   #1
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Deciding on High Speed Internet System

Hi All, I am traveling to Australia withe world arc next year. I am outfitting our new Leopard 50 and need to work from the boat. On our last boat we used a V3IP from Kvh and it worked well. Now we are considering a KVH V7 HTS but the coverage map shows some new areas in the South Pacific coming online but their map is very low detail and the salespeople can't answer this question. Does KVH V7 or V3 work in Tahiti, Tuamotos, Marquesas? If anyone has first hand experience or knows anyone I can ask it would be appreciated.

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Old 23-03-2019, 08:30   #2
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

Hi Randy,

I cant speak for the new areas coming online, however, the other side to consider with KVH is the amount of data you're going to push every month.

KVH is extremely popular in the leisure market due to the smaller antennas and low costs, but the data caps have always been a big issue. With HTS you pay for an allotment of "up to" 10mbps x 3mbps - with KVH not actually disclosing what your guaranteed throughput is. Once you burn through that "HTS" allotment you move on to the low speed package you've also chosen to pay for.

If the above doesnt bother you, great, but just know with a real VSAT solution you can have unlimited data every month and know exactly what your CIR and MIR are. You will pay a little more for the hardware, but the service will be a better deal for guaranteed speeds and no data cap.
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Old 23-03-2019, 16:09   #3
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

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Originally Posted by N3VR L8 View Post
Hi Randy,

I cant speak for the new areas coming online, however, the other side to consider with KVH is the amount of data you're going to push every month.

KVH is extremely popular in the leisure market due to the smaller antennas and low costs, but the data caps have always been a big issue. With HTS you pay for an allotment of "up to" 10mbps x 3mbps - with KVH not actually disclosing what your guaranteed throughput is. Once you burn through that "HTS" allotment you move on to the low speed package you've also chosen to pay for.

If the above doesnt bother you, great, but just know with a real VSAT solution you can have unlimited data every month and know exactly what your CIR and MIR are. You will pay a little more for the hardware, but the service will be a better deal for guaranteed speeds and no data cap.
NVR L8,

I think you may be misinterpreting the V7HTS data plan and hardware. While it's true that the 10mbps/3mbps speeds are not guaranteed, you don't slow down after your included allotment. There are two separate channels. The high speed channel is the one that provides 10/3 speeds (depending on network congestion, etc) and you pay for some included data on that channel. If you consume your allotment, you simply pay an overage for any additional data over that amount in the same month, no slow down.

The unique thing about the V7HTS is that you have the second channel, which is a low speed unlimited channel. You can pay to increase the speed of the second channel above the baseline. This channel is always on and always unlimited, but it's a completely separate channel from the high speed channel.

Why this is important, is that if you set up your network appropriately on the boat you can send all sorts of traffic over the low-speed unlimited channel without consuming ANY of your high speed allotment in a given month. So you can do email, weather, vessel telemetry, certain business operations, scheduled downloads, and even some possibly lightweight web browsing over the unlimited channel, and only consume the high speed allotment when it's necessary.

That is far different (and much more powerful) than a service that just slows down once you'd consumed you alotted data package.

The V3HTS is smaller and less expensive, and slower than V7 (5mbps down), and does NOT have the second channel, so you just consume your allotted data and then pay for overage.
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Old 23-03-2019, 16:14   #4
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

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NVR L8,



I think you may be misinterpreting the V7HTS data plan and hardware. While it's true that the 10mbps/3mbps speeds are not guaranteed, you don't slow down after your included allotment. There are two separate channels. The high speed channel is the one that provides 10/3 speeds (depending on network congestion, etc) and you pay for some included data on that channel. If you consume your allotment, you simply pay an overage for any additional data over that amount in the same month, no slow down.



The unique thing about the V7HTS is that you have the second channel, which is a low speed unlimited channel. You can pay to increase the speed of the second channel above the baseline. This channel is always on and always unlimited, but it's a completely separate channel from the high speed channel.



Why this is important, is that if you set up your network appropriately on the boat you can send all sorts of traffic over the low-speed unlimited channel without consuming ANY of your high speed allotment in a given month. So you can do email, weather, vessel telemetry, certain business operations, scheduled downloads, and even some possibly lightweight web browsing over the unlimited channel, and only consume the high speed allotment when it's necessary.



That is far different (and much more powerful) than a service that just slows down once you'd consumed you alotted data package.



The V3HTS is smaller and less expensive, and slower than V7 (5mbps down), and does NOT have the second channel, so you just consume your allotted data and then pay for overage.
The "low speed channel" is exactly what I was referring to.

True VSAT has no overages, data caps, low speed channels, nor hidden contention ratios. As I said, KVH is very popular because of cost, but you get what you pay for in both a service and hardware perspective. Additionally, if you actually compare a true VSAT solution service cost to KVH you'll find you get more bang for your buck when you move away from the hidden details of KVH.

With that said, I completely understand why KVH is popular with the leisure market as well as with dealers such as yourself.. They set themselves up well to do well in both of those avenues.
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Old 23-03-2019, 16:19   #5
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

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Originally Posted by N3VR L8 View Post
Hi Randy,

I cant speak for the new areas coming online, however, the other side to consider with KVH is the amount of data you're going to push every month.

KVH is extremely popular in the leisure market due to the smaller antennas and low costs, but the data caps have always been a big issue. With HTS you pay for an allotment of "up to" 10mbps x 3mbps - with KVH not actually disclosing what your guaranteed throughput is. Once you burn through that "HTS" allotment you move on to the low speed package you've also chosen to pay for.

If the above doesnt bother you, great, but just know with a real VSAT solution you can have unlimited data every month and know exactly what your CIR and MIR are. You will pay a little more for the hardware, but the service will be a better deal for guaranteed speeds and no data cap.
Hi Randy, Richard Anderson here...

One thing you might consider is augmenting the KVH V7HTS (or even a V3HTS) with an Iridium Certus system for areas where the KVH coverage or congestion is a problem. At higher plans (2GB,5GB,10GB) the Certus data rates are pretty reasonable (higher than KVH but not obsene), but you will get pretty much the stated speeds (350kbps up and down) all the time, with an upgrade to 700kbps in the future. Adding a Certus device adds about 20% to the cost of your KVH V7HTS installation and they can be tied together in a variety of ways. We can do Certus in 3 month contracts so you could use it for less than a year if needed.

As I mentioned in Annapolis, there are likely ways to control your data usage to keep airtime costs more reasonable than in the past so you don't necessarily need 5+GB's of data each month.
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Old 23-03-2019, 16:33   #6
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

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Hi Randy, Richard Anderson here...



One thing you might consider is augmenting the KVH V7HTS (or even a V3HTS) with an Iridium Certus system for areas where the KVH coverage or congestion is a problem. At higher plans (2GB,5GB,10GB) the Certus data rates are pretty reasonable (higher than KVH but not obsene), but you will get pretty much the stated speeds (350kbps up and down) all the time, with an upgrade to 700kbps in the future. Adding a Certus device adds about 20% to the cost of your KVH V7HTS installation and they can be tied together in a variety of ways. We can do Certus in 3 month contracts so you could use it for less than a year if needed.



As I mentioned in Annapolis, there are likely ways to control your data usage to keep airtime costs more reasonable than in the past so you don't necessarily need 5+GB's of data each month.
To add on this, I would suggest a certus/pilot/fleetone etc (L band terminal) in addition to your vsat no matter which direction you end up going, KVH or otherwise.

Not only is an L band backup wise to have for weather or other blockages to your Ku/Ka band connection, it also provides for out of band management and administration to your VSAT solution in case of issues - anyone familiar with VSAT will tell you it does not come as a trouble free setup and hopefully whoever you decide to go with is well suited and prepared to support you with troubles while underway.

Iridium Certus offers a very nice VSAT backup plan for this exact reason, although Im unsure of whether or not they will approve it with KVH as the primary connection.
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Old 24-03-2019, 14:22   #7
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

AND, don't forget about Musk, et al and their race to provide worldwide, AFFORDABLE, low earth orbit (low latency), broadband internet sevice beginning in 2019. Musk has a couple of test birds up, the other outfit just sent up a few and the race is heating up and we all stand to gain... unless your business is old sat phone internet.
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Old 24-03-2019, 14:34   #8
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

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AND, don't forget about Musk, et al and their race to provide worldwide, AFFORDABLE, low earth orbit (low latency), broadband internet sevice beginning in 2019. Musk has a couple of test birds up, the other outfit just sent up a few and the race is heating up and we all stand to gain... unless your business is old sat phone internet.
There is a ton of hype around this.. But the reality is it's way out beyond 2019.. For StarLink (Musk/SpaceX) First launches of production satellites will be in 2019, but he has to launch 4000 satellites for just phase one. And he has to get them up in 5 years to keep the FCC license that was issued. So that means phase 1 launches will be close to complete in about 5 years from now. But remember, that's 4000 satellites, that's ALOT of launches to get going. SpaceX is likely capable of getting this all done, but it's still a TON of work and risk, and billions of dollars.

Affordable is relative.. It will be fast, that's for sure, but unlikely to truly be affordable at first, and it very well may be unavailable for consumers directly. The plans for these systems (SpaceX, Oneweb, etc) are terminals that are tied to large telecom company cellular services, so that a satellite terminal extends the cellular network to remote places. It can also serve as a high speed terminal for a building. Sure it's small enough for most of us boaters, but that is definitely not a target market for them, at least not at first.

Also note, that the marketing material StarLink has produced so far is directed at high-frequency trading, certainly not a market that is looking for low cost bandwidth, they are looking for the lowest possible latency at any cost.

OneWeb is likely going to have a working (ie: completed constellation) earlier than Musk, and it may very well be good and fast and potentially reasonable cost, but again, target markets may not line up with us boaters all that well.

Additionally, the satellite broadband market is small and Iridium, who has been around a long time--If you count up their total subscriber base, and remove IOT devices (ie: non-human use) you end up with about 500,000 subscribers globally. While that's a lot of people, the average cell phone company in the US has close to 100X that many. And satellite will never displace cellular due to line of sight issues (gotta see the satellite) so you will never see satellite phones at market penetration numbers anywhere close to cellular.

All that said, I am totally pro-broadband global satellite, and we will surely get there. Musk and OneWeb are on the right path and looking good. But don't count your chickens until they hatch..

Will it be fast? yes.
Will it be global? mostly.
Will the hardware costs be reasonable? looks like it.
Will it be cheap to use? jury is still out.
Will we consumers be able to buy and consume the service directly? It's not looking good for at least the first releases of these services.
Will it be available in 2019? extremely unlikely.
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Old 25-03-2019, 16:33   #9
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

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True VSAT has no overages, data caps, low speed channels, nor hidden contention ratios. As I said, KVH is very popular because of cost, but you get what you pay for in both a service and hardware perspective. Additionally, if you actually compare a true VSAT solution service cost to KVH you'll find you get more bang for your buck when you move away from the hidden details of KVH.

What's an example of "true VSAT", and how is it better and more bang for the buck than KVH's VSAT offering?
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Old 25-03-2019, 16:39   #10
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

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What's an example of "true VSAT", and how is it better and more bang for the buck than KVH's VSAT offering?
For the exact reasons I mentioned - you know EXACTLY what you're paying for, KVH won't disclose contention rations for a reason.. A true VSAT solution has no overages, no data caps, no "low speed channels" etc. Just unlimited data at a speed you know you're paying for.

In addition to all that, the hardware is far more robust and durable. KVH has a great hold on the leisure market due to the price point, not due to the value or performance.
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Old 25-03-2019, 16:57   #11
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

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For the exact reasons I mentioned - you know EXACTLY what you're paying for, KVH won't disclose contention rations for a reason.. A true VSAT solution has no overages, no data caps, no "low speed channels" etc. Just unlimited data at a speed you know you're paying for.

In addition to all that, the hardware is far more robust and durable. KVH has a great hold on the leisure market due to the price point, not due to the value or performance.
While all that may be true.. Keep in mind that KVH is Mini-VSAT. True VSAT generally requires a dome that is larger than the already quite large KVH V7. And even the 4/1mbps GX (I know, not technically the same) service's CIR is down around 128kbps... So while there IS a CIR (vs KVH's no CIR), it's pretty damn low unless you pay a ton more. It's cheaper to add a Certus to a KVH and use that when needed than it would be to buy a larger VSAT dome and pay for a reasonable committed rate.
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Old 25-03-2019, 17:05   #12
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Re: Deciding on High Speed Internet System

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While all that may be true.. Keep in mind that KVH is Mini-VSAT. True VSAT generally requires a dome that is larger than the already quite large KVH V7. And even the 4/1mbps GX (I know, not technically the same) service's CIR is down around 128kbps... So while there IS a CIR (vs KVH's no CIR), it's pretty damn low unless you pay a ton more. It's cheaper to add a Certus to a KVH and use that when needed than it would be to buy a larger VSAT dome and pay for a reasonable committed rate.
FX is not competitive to standard VSAT service pricing, so not a good comparison at all.

The V7HTS is a 60cm antenna, fairly standard in the small vessel market for VSAT, although some networks won't touch a 60cm antenna because it degrades the network quality as a whole. I would much prefer to see an 80cm antenna to a 60cm antenna, for sure.
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