Cruising Electronics Shoot-out

[FightinGravity]

Visited the Annapolis boat show last weekend and I was frankly blown away by all the new electronics. I have seen many threads here talking about the best this are the best that but many seem outdated. The question is if you were to outfit a boat with the intention of sailing around the world slowly, which electronics would you choose from which maker? Everything from the chart plotter to the Wi-Fi booster. Anybody have personal experience with a brand-new set of 2015 electronics? Any lessons learned?

[colemj]

By the time you get answers and evaluate a course of action……

…. it will be outdated.

Mark

[ka4wja]

"FightinGravity",
First and foremost, if I could ask for a bit of faith on your part (and from everyone else as well), then please understand the following statements are true!

It is the proper installation/mounting, wiring/connections, programming/commissioning, of marine electronics that makes or breaks them / the system!!!
No matter how old, out-of-date, etc. something may be, if it was/is done properly, it will almost always work and outperform any of the newest, wiz-bang stuff that is poorly installed / commissioned!!

Those that market / sell the stuff are typically loath to admit this....and many will tell you that one product or another is "simpler to install", etc., but the statements above in bold are true!

As long as you understand the above, and what Mark wrote yesterday, steer clear of some problematic items...and follow a few tips below, I think you'll find quite a bit of the new stuff to be good....and you might even find what is best for you and your application!


BTW, while Mark is quite correct, that trying to stay ahead of the curve of obsolescence is a futile effort, the fact is that you do NOT need to do that in order to find/equip with the "best" or more precisely "best for your application" (or even "best for the money" / "most bang, for the buck")...

If you're actually interested, I can point out some products/equipment that stand out amongst themselves...
(whether everyone would agree they are the "best" or not...well, that's a tall order...but let's try..)

Originally Posted by FightinGravity

Visited the boat show">Annapolis boat show last weekend and I was frankly blown away by all the new electronics. I have seen many threads here talking about the best this are the best that but many seem outdated. The question is if you were to outfit a boat with the intention of sailing around the world slowly, which electronics would you choose from which maker? Everything from the chart plotter to the Wi-Fi booster. Anybody have personal experience with a brand-new set of 2015 electronics? Any lessons learned?

I'd like to use your words here ("The question is if you were to outfit a boat with the intention of sailing around the world slowly, which electronics would you choose from which maker? Everything from the chart plotter to the Wi-Fi booster."), as the basis of my thoughts....('cause equipping for long-range, offshore cruising and ocean crossings, is something I'm very familiar with!)

1) Before we get to the "nitty-gritty"....Let's start off with the premise that you (and your "crew" / "companions") should be able to safely sail, navigate, and if possible, communicate, without any "electronic" devices at all!! (or at the least, a minor few....such as an EPIRB for distress emergencies, and a proper VHF-DSC radio)...

I'm not writing this with the intention of whining that everyone should go back to using a sextant and scrap their GPS, etc...
NO...
What I am saying is that YOU should be able to do everything critical without electronics, 'cause sooner or later something is going to fail and/or you'll not have the electrical power for it, etc...
{that old saying that "we are all just a lightning strike away from the days of 'sail'!" is true!!}


2) Secondly, in a similar vein, you should be designing / equipping around an "electronics plan" that allows for the least amount of electrical power used, or the least used to attain your system goals....
And, what are the most reliable products / systems available (or at least highly reliable), rather than the most wiz-bang, fancy, hi-tech gadgets/displays, etc...


3) Whatever "electronics" you select, try to make sure that each individual device / component will work on-its-own, without the need for "integration"/"networking", etc.!!
Yes, I know everyone is marketing "integration", etc...and I'm not saying you shouldn't do that...but rather making sure that everything also works independently!!!

And, also make sure that there is NMEA 0183 operability as well as NMEA 2000....both because NMEA 2000 still has some issues on some product lines (or maybe better to state that some product lines have issues with NMEA 2000!), and because some things still need NMEA 0183...


4) Have a look at some recent threads here, discussing what "electronics" (mainly based on communications gear) are necessary / best for an offshore cruising boat, as well as details on what to buy based on various budgets (such as $1000, $5000, and $10,000)
{please note that these are all different postings, with different info, even if they show up here with the same name!}

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/communications-equipment-144756-2.html#post1805253

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/cruising-comms-set-up-147193.html#post1838788

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/guide-to-marine-electronics-142136.html#post1771912

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/guide-to-marine-electronics-142136-2.html#post1776549

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/have-to-haves-and-wants-142290-4.html#post1766411


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/communications-equipment-144756-2.html#post1804858

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/the-perfect-setup-142805.html#post1776278

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/ais-all-in-one-radio-or-computer-opencpn-144617.html#post1802098




5) With those caveats in mind, and the above threads in the front of your mind....here is a brief list to start you off....no particular order, except that you mentioned chartplotter and Wi-Fi, so I'll start with them..

a) Chartplotter:
Understand that you should choose the plotter based on what electronic charts are best for the areas you plan on sailing, and select a plotter that uses those charts....do not make your choice based on what is the "best" plotter, nor which one has the coolest features or fastest processor, etc...

In order of preference: Raymarine, Garmin, Furuno....and in a distant last place, Navico (B&G, Simrad, etc.)

Also, do not forget that along most of your round-the-world cruise, you'll not be using a chartplotter when offshore on passage (as there is nothing there to plot)....so, if you wish to use GPS for position fixing (which almost everyone does), you should have a means of using your primary GPS without needing to turn on your plotter...(this is an easy thing to do, but few design a system this way...a mistake in my opinion!....but nowadays, with many equipping AIS transponders, this is getting even easier!)


b) Wi-Fi:
Any Groove or Bullet based system should be fine and work well for you worldwide....(just be sure to tell them where you're planning on voyaging, so you can get everything compatible)
I prefer the systems from Island Time PC...
http://islandtimepc.com/marine_wifi.html

(also remember that while "wireless AC", 802.11ac, is all the rage here abouts....it's all but unheard of in most places...)


~~~~~~~~~~~

c) Now that those are out of the way....how about some thoughts about products that are almost universally thought of as "best" or "best bang for the buck"??

--- Icom M-802 MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephone ("SSB")...
http://www.docksideradio.com/Icom%20SSB%20Radios.htm
http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/marine/ssb/m802/specifications.aspx



--- Vesper WatchMate AIS displays and transponders...
https://www.vespermarine.com/


--- HD Digital pulse radar (or even "Color"...whether Raymarine or Furuno....their new stuff is really great!! (although some tout FMCW radar, like navico's 3G/4G radar, I'd still rate an old-fashioned pulse radar as "best")
http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=238
http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=243

http://www.furunousa.com/Products/Products.aspx?category=Products+%3A+Radars



--- FLIR thermal imaging cameras (although, I don't think they're a necessity at all, the are some of the best thermal imaging cameras on the consumer market!)
http://www.flir.com/home/


--- Shakespeare Marine Antennas....Belden, Times, Davis, coax...amphenol, times, kings connectors...


These next ones are not really "electronics"....but, they do fit into the "best" category...
--- DanFoss BD-50 based marine refrigeration...whether AB, frigoboat, etc..
http://www.waeco.com/USA/Contact/

--- Rolls/Surette's batteries....(yeah, pricey....but some of the best batteries in the world....and damn close to the best band for the buck, too!)
http://rollsbattery.com/

--- Sensi-Bulb LED lighting...
http://www.sailorssolutions.com/?page=ProductDetails&Item=SEN10W





I hope this initial list helps get you started!
(I gotta' go...maybe more later)


Fair winds..

John

[FightinGravity]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

"FightinGravity",
First and foremost, if I could ask for a bit of faith on your part (and from everyone else as well), then please understand the following statements are true!

It is the proper installation/mounting, wiring/connections, programming/commissioning, of marine electronics that makes or breaks them / the system!!!
No matter how old, out-of-date, etc. something may be, if it was/is done properly, it will almost always work and outperform any of the newest, wiz-bang stuff that is poorly installed / commissioned!!

Those that market / sell the stuff are typically loath to admit this....and many will tell you that one product or another is "simpler to install", etc., but the statements above in bold are true!

As long as you understand the above, and what Mark wrote yesterday, steer clear of some problematic items...and follow a few tips below, I think you'll find quite a bit of the new stuff to be good....and you might even find what is best for you and your application!


BTW, while Mark is quite correct, that trying to stay ahead of the curve of obsolescence is a futile effort, the fact is that you do NOT need to do that in order to find/equip with the "best" or more precisely "best for your application" (or even "best for the money" / "most bang, for the buck")...

If you're actually interested, I can point out some products/equipment that stand out amongst themselves...
(whether everyone would agree they are the "best" or not...well, that's a tall order...but let's try..)




I'd like to use your words here ("The question is if you were to outfit a boat with the intention of sailing around the world slowly, which electronics would you choose from which maker? Everything from the chart plotter to the Wi-Fi booster."), as the basis of my thoughts....('cause equipping for long-range, offshore cruising and ocean crossings, is something I'm very familiar with!)

1) Before we get to the "nitty-gritty"....Let's start off with the premise that you (and your "crew" / "companions") should be able to safely sail, navigate, and if possible, communicate, without any "electronic" devices at all!! (or at the least, a minor few....such as an EPIRB for distress emergencies, and a proper VHF-DSC radio)...

I'm not writing this with the intention of whining that everyone should go back to using a sextant and scrap their GPS, etc...
NO...
What I am saying is that YOU should be able to do everything critical without electronics, 'cause sooner or later something is going to fail and/or you'll not have the electrical power for it, etc...
{that old saying that "we are all just a lightning strike away from the days of 'sail'!" is true!!}


2) Secondly, in a similar vein, you should be designing / equipping around an "electronics plan" that allows for the least amount of electrical power used, or the least used to attain your system goals....
And, what are the most reliable products / systems available (or at least highly reliable), rather than the most wiz-bang, fancy, hi-tech gadgets/displays, etc...


3) Whatever "electronics" you select, try to make sure that each individual device / component will work on-its-own, without the need for "integration"/"networking", etc.!!
Yes, I know everyone is marketing "integration", etc...and I'm not saying you shouldn't do that...but rather making sure that everything also works independently!!!

And, also make sure that there is NMEA 0183 operability as well as NMEA 2000....both because NMEA 2000 still has some issues on some product lines (or maybe better to state that some product lines have issues with NMEA 2000!), and because some things still need NMEA 0183...


4) Have a look at some recent threads here, discussing what "electronics" (mainly based on communications gear) are necessary / best for an offshore cruising boat, as well as details on what to buy based on various budgets (such as $1000, $5000, and $10,000)
{please note that these are all different postings, with different info, even if they show up here with the same name!}

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/communications-equipment-144756-2.html#post1805253

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/cruising-comms-set-up-147193.html#post1838788

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/guide-to-marine-electronics-142136.html#post1771912

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/guide-to-marine-electronics-142136-2.html#post1776549

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/have-to-haves-and-wants-142290-4.html#post1766411


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/communications-equipment-144756-2.html#post1804858

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/the-perfect-setup-142805.html#post1776278

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/ais-all-in-one-radio-or-computer-opencpn-144617.html#post1802098




5) With those caveats in mind, and the above threads in the front of your mind....here is a brief list to start you off....no particular order, except that you mentioned chartplotter and Wi-Fi, so I'll start with them..

a) Chartplotter:
Understand that you should choose the plotter based on what electronic charts are best for the areas you plan on sailing, and select a plotter that uses those charts....do not make your choice based on what is the "best" plotter, nor which one has the coolest features or fastest processor, etc...

In order of preference: Raymarine, Garmin, Furuno....and in a distant last place, Navico (B&G, Simrad, etc.)

Also, do not forget that along most of your round-the-world cruise, you'll not be using a chartplotter when offshore on passage (as there is nothing there to plot)....so, if you wish to use GPS for position fixing (which almost everyone does), you should have a means of using your primary GPS without needing to turn on your plotter...(this is an easy thing to do, but few design a system this way...a mistake in my opinion!....but nowadays, with many equipping AIS transponders, this is getting even easier!)


b) Wi-Fi:
Any Groove or Bullet based system should be fine and work well for you worldwide....(just be sure to tell them where you're planning on voyaging, so you can get everything compatible)
I prefer the systems from Island Time PC...
http://islandtimepc.com/marine_wifi.html

(also remember that while "wireless AC", 802.11ac, is all the rage here abouts....it's all but unheard of in most places...)


~~~~~~~~~~~

c) Now that those are out of the way....how about some thoughts about products that are almost universally thought of as "best" or "best bang for the buck"??

--- Icom M-802 MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephone ("SSB")...
http://www.docksideradio.com/Icom%20SSB%20Radios.htm
http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/marine/ssb/m802/specifications.aspx



--- Vesper WatchMate AIS displays and transponders...
https://www.vespermarine.com/


--- HD Digital pulse radar (or even "Color"...whether Raymarine or Furuno....their new stuff is really great!! (although some tout FMCW radar, like navico's 3G/4G radar, I'd still rate an old-fashioned pulse radar as "best")
http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=238
http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=243

http://www.furunousa.com/Products/Products.aspx?category=Products+%3A+Radars



--- FLIR thermal imaging cameras (although, I don't think they're a necessity at all, the are some of the best thermal imaging cameras on the consumer market!)
http://www.flir.com/home/


--- Shakespeare Marine Antennas....Belden, Times, Davis, coax...amphenol, times, kings connectors...


These next ones are not really "electronics"....but, they do fit into the "best" category...
--- DanFoss BD-50 based marine refrigeration...whether AB, frigoboat, etc..
http://www.waeco.com/USA/Contact/

--- Rolls/Surette's batteries....(yeah, pricey....but some of the best batteries in the world....and damn close to the best band for the buck, too!)
http://rollsbattery.com/

--- Sensi-Bulb LED lighting...
http://www.sailorssolutions.com/?page=ProductDetails&Item=SEN10W





I hope this initial list helps get you started!
(I gotta' go...maybe more later)


Fair winds..

John

Fantastic info! Thanks and don't hesitate to keep it going

[Sailmonkey]

Now that's a post!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[travellerw]

I just did this.. I choose a combination of B&G (Plotter, wind, depth) and Vesper (AIS) and Standard Horizon (VHF).

I opted to keep my existing autopilot and radar (both Raymarine).

So far I have been very happy with my purchases.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by FightinGravity

(...) The question is if you were to outfit a boat with the intention of sailing around the world slowly, which electronics would you choose from which maker? (...)

1. A depth instrument, Ray ST40.
2. A handheld GPS (2 units) Garmin 72 (now it is 72H).

Only because I have had them so long that they became an extension of my sailing self. I can operate them with eyes shut (I mean it). Seems possibly silly, but at times when you want to keep your eyes on the water this apparently circus ability comes in very handy.

I think dedicated boat electronics are nothing but a ripoff. One system no wifi no BT no battery gps at 150 bucks from Garmarine vs. 50 bucks for a mobile with two system gps, BT and wifi (and a colour screen, and a lithium bat).

Electronics are fine toys and I like toys. But for slow rtw sailing I would forego the electronics shop and invest heavily in my skills, fitness, quality sail wardrobe, top shelf windvane, then perhaps a watermaker, an icemaker and last but not least a quality matchmaker.

b.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

"FightinGravity",
First and foremost, if I could ask for a bit of faith on your part (and from everyone else as well), then please understand the following statements are true!

It is the proper installation/mounting, wiring/connections, programming/commissioning, of marine electronics that makes or breaks them / the system!!!
No matter how old, out-of-date, etc. something may be, if it was/is done properly, it will almost always work and outperform any of the newest, wiz-bang stuff that is poorly installed / commissioned!!

...

That has to be one of the best posts on the subject that I have ever seen.

Thank you John!

[ka4wja]

Stu,
You're welcome! (and thanks for the thumbs up!)

Originally Posted by StuM

That has to be one of the best posts on the subject that I have ever seen.

Thank you John!

BTW, if you can get an honest answer out of any seasoned professional in the electronics industry, you'll see that this applies just about everywhere!

It's just that it applies to a very high degree with marine electronics...and to an extreme degree when non-sailors (non-offshore sailors) do the installation, wiring, commissioning of all of these systems...

Even pros that should know what they're doing, get rushed by circumstances....as well as many times take the "easy way", due to their own ignorance of offshore sailing...

They may be very proficient in the hi-tech field, but...
No matter what "factory training" or "manufacturer certification" they have, no matter how many NMEA courses they passed, if they don't know what it's like when offshore, and they're getting pressed to complete jobs quickly, then they will take shortcuts that (according to their training, or according to "the book") might be okay to them....but, that will come back to bite the owner/sailor hard, when offshore and/or a few months/years of cruising later!!!

Just saying....sometimes it's tough for the non-tech sailor to know if he's getting a good job done, or not!!


Fair winds..

John

[Stu Jackson]

John, great posts, as always, thanks again.

To the OP:

Too many different things left out of your question, as John indirectly alluded to.

I recently saw a post on another forum with a skipper with a 31 foot boat that has more bells & whistles electronically than the current Queen Mary. To sail around Puget Sound!!! I personally think it's bloody nonsense.

And besides, with all that crap at the helm:

1 --- He can't see forward when either standing or sitting!

2 --- He needs to be behind the wheel ALL the time. I think he knows it RAINS up there a lot, but he has no bimini or enclosure, just a dodger. So, why HAVE TO sit out in the elements?

There is also the ongoing discussion about system integration or not. In recent discussions, I have been "converted" in understanding that "integrating" an autopilot to a GPS isn't the problem I used to think it was before, since the ap needs an acknowledgement before it changes course, so the odds of the ap going wild following a route and/or steering you on the rocks was a false-positive.

That said, I find no need for integration, and I sail long distances and many times singlehanded and still see no need for it.

I've been getting by for decades with a handheld GPS and an old autopilot.

As far as modern electronics are concerned, and depending on WHERE you're planning to sail, everything I've absorbed in reading and my own experience comes down to these essentials (assuming GPS is already included, as are hand plotting devices):

1. Self steering - wind vane, electric/hydraulic - crew fatigue & safety

2. Radar (before AIS for the obvious reasons)

3. AIS

I've sailed without true wind information since forever. I'm not a Luddite, but heck it's extraneous information for cruising, since ya oughta be able to figure it out if you know math & vectors anyway. If you run a few pre-planned numbers of apparent wind, boat speed and wind speed, you can get pretty close all the time anyway.

Finally, regardless of the general obsolescence argument related to electronics, asking this kinda open-ended question is like asking your mom which girl you should marry. When you're only 13!

That said, some of the sailing related new gear is pretty cool.

Good luck, have fun hunting for what works for you.

[roverhi]

The CSBB has a reprint of an article from a recent Cruising World. It's a very vivid example of how too much electronics can ruin a passage. An over electrified boat on a schedule with not enough time to get the fancies working coupled with not taking the time to be sure the essential stuff does work.

Have been very happy cruising many thousands of miles with nothing more than a 6" plotter, knot meter/log, Ham Radio, depth sounder and Self Steering Vane and, just recently, AIS. Everything is just toys that you have to pay for, pay to install, pay to keep working, pay for in headaches using and don't do much to make the trip more enjoyable.

If you are going to install new Electronics, do it at least 6 months before leaving on a voyage and use them often in all modes to be sure that they are working. Latest bells and whistles are usually just that. The important is that they work and you know how to use them.