Class B AIS waste of money

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You've replied to my post but not to what I posted. Every boat doesn't need to be and shouldn't be transmitting an AIS signal. Just the big ones.

Standing on the bridge of a ship underway has nothing to do with it.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I was specifically responding to your argument that "big ships don't care about small boats", and that therefore, they are not interested in having AIS data from them. This is false on both counts. Ask any ship's officer, or stand on a ship's bridge some time and watch how they deal with traffic.

[250224]

Originally Posted by SV Enough

I'm hoping to prompt some discussion on what a total waste of money purchasing and installing a class B transponder on your please craft is.

I have radioed several (big cargo) boats at night at the 'Nordsee' and they had me on the radar. (Honestly: I was glad, all dark and they coming almost exactly towards me, not much wind either). - Stay away from the 'Nordsee' with your A.I.S. settings...

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You've replied to my post but not to what I posted. Every boat doesn't need to be and shouldn't be transmitting an AIS signal. Just the big ones.

Standing on the bridge of a ship underway has nothing to do with it.

The AIS system can handle very large amounts of transmitters, much more than seen to date. A good navigator can handle the clutter. To state that moving vessels 'shouldn't' be transmitting is foolish.

[masonc]

Originally Posted by brownoarsman

So just wait until everyone has AIS on their main boat, and zipping around in their dinghies!

I'm already seeing the Megayachts around here putting AIS on their tenders. You see T/T boatname on the AIS, moving fast around the harbour. How is this necessary?

[brownoarsman]

Originally Posted by masonc

I'm already seeing the Megayachts around here putting AIS on their tenders. You see T/T boatname on the AIS, moving fast around the harbour. How is this necessary?

Heh, so it's begun!

The context of my discussion with the development guy was that I was looking at upgrading my radio. Since we know that you never get any $s back for electronics upgrades, but you do actually have to pay $s for them (sometimes $$$$$s), I've been trying to keep everything handheld, so when I sell my boat (hopefully soon), I'll just be able to take the handhelds with me, without having to mess about uninstalling stuff, reinstalling old gear, etc. and will have it with me ready to move onto the next boat. My intention was not to turn my rowing dinghy into the bridge of a cargo ship So I don't think development was referring to a SART, but on a phone call, one can certainly miss communicate. In any event his suggestion was to wait until the handheld version was out.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I was specifically responding to your argument that "big ships don't care about small boats", and that therefore, they are not interested in having AIS data from them. This is false on both counts. Ask any ship's officer, or stand on a ship's bridge some time and watch how they deal with traffic.

The point of this thread was that the ships turn off the class B targets.

If I am in my small boat, drifting in the channel in the harbor and a tanker is coming in to dock, exactly how does he deal with my boat other than blow the danger signal?

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by rwidman

The point of this thread was that the ships turn off the class B targets.

If I am in my small boat, drifting in the channel in the harbor and a tanker is coming in to dock, exactly how does he deal with my boat other than blow the danger signal?

If the ship is restricted by draft and you're in a small boat blocking the channel then that's all he can do. Move or become chum. AIS in the small boat only improves the odds that you'll be noticed and that he'll give 5 blasts, and hopefully you get out of the way. Especially at night or in restricted visibility.

No downside to being seen.

How can you justify wanting to be less visible out of concern for someone else having too much information? Information is good.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

.............. Information is good.

Too much information is clutter and that's not good. Is it good to have so many road signs on the highway that you have to slow down to read them all?

Again, that was the point of this thread. That the ships often turn off the class B signals. If they turn them off, you might as well not have bought the AIS transceiver in the first place. Actually, you are in a worse situation because you think they are seeing your position but they are not.

[nigel1]

Some of us made the point that in congested waters, the audible alarm from the AIS might be disabled, not that Class B targets are filtered out.
In less congested waters, your Class B will get you noticed, especially as in open waters, watchkeepers on ships might be keeping a relaxed look out

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Again, that was the point of this thread. That the ships often turn off the class B signals. If they turn them off, you might as well not have bought the AIS transceiver in the first place. Actually, you are in a worse situation because you think they are seeing your position but they are not.

I don't have a dog in the fight regarding whether or not the clutter's too much to deal with, but I'm a commercial captain, and neither I nor anybody I know of is turning off class B AIS targets on their radar/plotter. This seems to be the general consensus among the pros here, with the exception of the OP, who is not a deck officer, you may recall.

I think that most of us who have a license on the line would consider switching off class B as having the potential in an inquiry to be seen as a violation of the rule to use all available means to avoid collision.

I certainly wouldn't want to get hauled into a USCG hearing and have to tell them that the alarms were bugging me so I switched all the B targets off, then ran over one of them. This would probably not end well for me professionally.

TJ

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Too much information is clutter and that's not good. Is it good to have so many road signs on the highway that you have to slow down to read them all?

Again, that was the point of this thread. That the ships often turn off the class B signals. If they turn them off, you might as well not have bought the AIS transceiver in the first place. Actually, you are in a worse situation because you think they are seeing your position but they are not.

Please explain your tactics in a harbor that's so "cluttered" with vessels that you "have to" slow down to "read them all"?

Do you close your eyes and hope for the best??

[250224]

Originally Posted by rwidman

The point of this thread was that the ships turn off the class B targets.

If I am in my small boat, drifting in the channel in the harbor and a tanker is coming in to dock, exactly how does he deal with my boat other than blow the danger signal?

In a channel in a harbor the AIS is not so important, sure. But - as in my example - at night in the 'Nordsee' I think it is/was very important. The big ships probably shifted some small degrees and passed near me. They had me on the (AIS) radar; as everyone else here, I think your 'turn off the class B' statement is not defensible.

PS: sorry for my now deleted not so nice word in my first post. I'm no english native speaker and didn't think it to be so strong

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by TJ D

I don't have a dog in the fight regarding whether or not the clutter's too much to deal with, but I'm a commercial captain, and neither I nor anybody I know of is turning off class B AIS targets on their radar/plotter. This seems to be the general consensus among the pros here, with the exception of the OP, who is not a deck officer, you may recall.

I think that most of us who have a license on the line would consider switching off class B as having the potential in an inquiry to be seen as a violation of the rule to use all available means to avoid collision.

I certainly wouldn't want to get hauled into a USCG hearing and have to tell them that the alarms were bugging me so I switched all the B targets off, then ran over one of them. This would probably not end well for me professionally.

TJ

Thanks for adding your perspective to this, TJ.

I've had AIS for about 8 or 9 years, and my home waters are Western Long Island Sound and NY Harbor area. These are very congested areas. On my boat it's overlaid on charts -- displayed on my PC below (running ActiveCaptain nav software) and on my 7" Chart Plotter at the helm.

Even on the busiest summer weekends I've never been distracted or confused by clutter. It's like radar (only faster/easier to get speed/heading/CPA) and it just provides backup or additional info (when desired) to your visual picture. Just as with radar, when you are in a crowded area you zoom in to areas of concern and this allows as much or as little detail as needed. One always needs to look out for fast moving ships and this doesn't change with or without AIS, except AIS adds more info which is helpful when needed.

On any occasion I've spoken with the bridge of a ship I've never had a ship tell me they did not see my Class B AIS,

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Too much information is clutter and that's not good. Is it good to have so many road signs on the highway that you have to slow down to read them all?

Again, that was the point of this thread. That the ships often turn off the class B signals. If they turn them off, you might as well not have bought the AIS transceiver in the first place. Actually, you are in a worse situation because you think they are seeing your position but they are not.

I never ASSUME a ship sees me. I follow the rules especially with regard to collision avoidance, and that includes allowance for the possibility the other guy won't. I also respect the issue of "tonnage" and stay out of the way.

I have to wonder if you use AIS, and if so perhaps on a device with a very limited or unintuitive display?

I don't believe ships do turn off Class B, and if they do I don't believe it's a widespread practice.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

The point of this thread was that the ships turn off the class B targets.

If I am in my small boat, drifting in the channel in the harbor and a tanker is coming in to dock, exactly how does he deal with my boat other than blow the danger signal?

We have an actual, professional, ship's captain in this thread -- did you read what he wrote? They do not "turn off" Class B targets. They turn off ALL alarms, in crowded harbors, but the targets are still visible on the screen.

If you get in the way of a ship in a channel in your little boat, he will do whatever he can to avoid running you down, as he is required to. That may mean putting the helm over if he has room, putting the machinery in astern, blowing the horn, whatever, in addition to cursing you, of course. Note that he might not even be able to see you from the bridge, if you are less than a cable under his bows. He would not ordinarily be using AIS much in a crowded harbor -- that's not what it's designed for. Either Class A or Class B targets. But there might be a case where he might want the data for some reason, if it's available. Certainly doesn't hurt anything to make the data available.