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Old 03-05-2014, 15:44   #1
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Call on HF DSC....maybe.

This is just to start a discussion on the relative merits of DSC on HF Marine SSB transceivers. Currently, as we know, the only solution for such is the ICOM M802, which is pretty expensive. You can easily find an ICOM M700Pro, used, for less than half what an 802 goes for.

Given the money, there is no question that I would have it. However, given the financial constraints that most cruisers have, I think a discussion is worthwhile. [and the 700Pro is still one of my all time favorite radio's]

From what I can gather, the utility of HF DSC would be that on the high seas, commercial traffic is required to monitor some DSC channel, while no longer required to monitor voice.

OK ...but....there are some issues.

1. DSC is useless if you do not program your radio properly, register this with the FCC and provide a GPS connection to your Marine SSB.

2. There may or may not be commercial traffic in range of your location. This is certainly...uncertain. Which channel are they monitoring.

3. Marine VHF DSC is built into every new marine VHF set and so, you should have this for short distance, at least.

The value of voice comms over marine SSB and/or ham radio.

1. You can almost always find some station on the air. Almost always, a way to connect to the Maritime Mobile Service Net. While this is a ham net, in an emergency, that does not matter. There are so many stations listening on this frequency, it can be better than the USCG.

In a recent incident, IIRC, a Canadian boat was on a reef off Cuba. They connected with the MMSN. Someone monitoring the net EMAILED the Canadian Embassy in Cuba and get them help (long story...short).

2. Does the USCG maintain a voice watch on some marine SSB channels, or do they not? We know they stopped 2.182, which is fine.

3. In an extreme situation, such as abandoning ship, you are probably not going to be fooling around with the radio, you will be in the life raft with the EPIRB, and hand held VHF.

One note: the situation is almost certainly different between the EU and the US. With the EU much more rigorous, in their DSC requirements. So...let's be sure to distinguish between the two regions.

So, with the few above comments, please feel free to contribute. I, for one, would certainly welcome the information.

My best to all

John
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Old 03-05-2014, 17:00   #2
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

I'll show my ignorance here; I thought when I pressed the red button on our 802, it sends out for help out on the DSC (also?). The only time I've heard an SOS, it came from the HF quite loud and clear. Not your typical hf radio signal.
You can't use the fact that you need to set up your 802 to use DSC, against it.
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Old 03-05-2014, 18:11   #3
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

Yeah, I have to say that number 1 is a little bit like saying, I have an "issue" with my sailboat because it doesn't work right if I don't hoist the sails and then pull on those sheet things.
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:07   #4
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy View Post
I'll show my ignorance here; I thought when I pressed the red button on our 802, it sends out for help out on the DSC (also?). The only time I've heard an SOS, it came from the HF quite loud and clear. Not your typical hf radio signal.
You can't use the fact that you need to set up your 802 to use DSC, against it.
If you take a look at the videos in the M802 sticky thread here on Marine Electronics one of them explains the 802's DCS features. It's not a obvious as I thought. Here's a link to the DCS video https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=LgnBiGNbWNU
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:33   #5
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

John, et al,
I hope you don't mind my direct comments here...sometimes perceived as too much "pro-DSC".....but I promise to try to be as balanced as possible....



Quote:
Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
From what I can gather, the utility of HF DSC would be that on the high seas, commercial traffic is required to monitor some DSC channel, while no longer required to monitor voice.
Yes, but this is only ONE of the advantages of DSC....and this has been the case for > 15 years....(the final effective date of the GMDSS was Jan 1999....)

Other advantages are MANY coast stations monitoring DSC and NOT voice freqs/channels....

And, the robustness of the DSC signal (as much as 12-15db advantage over SSB-Voice)....(kinda' like calling on SSB with a 3000 watt - 5000 watt transmitter)


And further, the repetitive / multiple messages sent....


And, even further, that DSC does this without any further human intervention (after pressing the button)....


Oh, and even more....
Something important, but often overlooked...
The advantage of vessels and shore stations monitoring MULTIPLE DSC freqs, and your radio capable of sending out these DSC-Distress messages on multiple freqs....
Both of these design features reduce/eliminate radiowave propagation variables from having any effect on your distress call....(unlike yelling Mayday on one freq, and nobody's even listening there...)

There are other advantages....see below...


OK ...but....there are some issues.

1. DSC is useless if you do not program your radio properly, register this with the FCC and provide a GPS connection to your Marine SSB.
Yes, you must have a MMSI# entered, in order to get the radio to send a DSC message....
But, in actuality a DSC transmitter would still work if you've entered a bogus MMSI# (PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS)... it is just that nobody would know WHO you are....and if you do not have any position information, nobody would know WHERE you are....
And, these are some of the primary flaws that the GMDSS was designed to alleviate....hence the adoption of DSC in the 1990's!!!

Please take note that the GMDSS, Icom, etc. (and I) refer to DSC "messages" rather than just an alert....as an alert wound be just be an "alert", but a "message" includes: an alert; an identifier; and your position; as well as a description of your alert/distress (if you choose to include that)...
And, all of this is sent multiple times, over-and-over again in a very robust Forward Error Correction (FEC), SImplex Teletype over Radio (SITOR-FEC), which has as much as 15db advantage over SSB-Voice....
This all means that your message will have a very high probability of getting thru to both shore stations and other vessels in your area/region....
And, this IS one of the primary goals of the GMDSS under SOLAS....
[Why is it that so many of my fellow US-based sailors/cruisers will insist on upgrading their smart phones every year or two, but refuse to accept changes in other parts of communications, even after 15 - 20 years???]

Specifically to your points:
a) There is NO "programming" of the radio needed, aside for entering in your MMSI# (your unique nine-digit number) ONCE, when you are installing/commissioning the radio...It is as easy (even EASIER) than storing one phone number in your cell phone...and takes all of 20-30 seconds!!!
b) Your vessel MUST have maritime ship's station license (and you must have at least an entry level operators license)....and these are also a REQUIREMENT even for your VHF radio, should you transit international waters, and/or waters of another nation, and/or communicate with vessels or shore stations of other nations....
In the US, this means you MUST have licenses issue by the FCC....NO exam is necessary, the ship's station license is good for 10 years and costs $160, the restricted operators license is free and good for life...
In the US, your MMSI# is issued by the FCC with/on your ship's station license....
c) Yes, in order for anyone to know WHERE you DSC message VHF or HF) is coming from, a position should be sent with your DSC call....(while this can be inputted manually by you, it is HIGHLY recommended to connect your radios (BOTH VHF-DSC and MF/HF-DSC radios) to a GPS receiver....
{and I recommend a separate, dedicated GPS unit just for the DSC radios...}

BUT...
But NONE of these three things are exclusive to HF-DSC....as all 3 apply to both VHF and HF DSC....and while you do not have anywhere to enter your MMSI# in an M-700Pro, nor anywhere to connect a GPS, nor any reason to do so, the REQUIREMENT for a ship's station license and operators license still applies!!!




2. There may or may not be commercial traffic in range of your location. This is certainly...uncertain. Which channel are they monitoring.
Getting your distress message thru to both an RCC / coast stations, and other vessels, is a primary goal of the GMDSS....
It is not only other vessels, but also contacting coast stations (with a few exceptions), that requires DSC!!!

b) All SOLAS vessels at sea (I think John was talking about offshore waters here) are required under the GMDSS to monitor 2187.5khz DSC, 8414.5khz DSC, and "one other HF-DSC frequency, to be determined by the vessel's master, based on vessel's route, time-of-day, and radio propagation"....
Although, in the real world all HF-DSC radiotelephones scan all six DSC frequencies continuously (as do GMDSS console DSC scanning receivers), so for all practical purposes they are going to monitoring them all....
(dave's caveats about EU vessels in Sea Area A2, should be noted....so while offshore, in int'l waters, etc. I'd first send a DSC message out on 8mhz (8414.5)....but if in the Med, I might send it off on MF (2187.5) first...)

But in general, this MF/HF-DSC system was designed into the GMDSS specifically so you do NOT need to worry about what channel/frequency to use....the system and protocols are deigned to reduce/eliminate this variable....
If you're sending a DSC-Distress message, 8mhz (8414.5khz) is one of the best overall freqs to use (if you had to pick just one), as in daytime it has no skip-zone and ranges up to 600 - 800 miles (or more), and in nighttime little skip-zone and ranges out past a few thousand miles..
This is the "default" freq for the M-802's "Simple Distress" message...
(If sending a "Regular Distress" message, you can select any/all six GMDSS DSC freqs...)

While I cannot be 100% certain that using 8414.5 will work 100% of the time, it DOES work and it IS the "default" for very good reasons...
So, if the stuff is hitting the fan, and you think you have only a couple minutes left floating, then send a "simple distress" message on 8414.5....
If you are on the high seas, and think you might have as much as 5-10 minutes left before losing electrical power/sinking/etc., then I'd recommend sending a six-freq "regular distress" message...

{although NOT directly on point of this discussion, if you are certain you are within 100 miles of SOLAS vessels and/or within 100 miles of MF maritime coast stations, then you might want to send a "regular Distress" message and start your DSC-Distress message on 2187.5...}

Please have a look at this video, where you'll see multiple HF-DSC-Distress alerts being sent....



a) As for where other vessels are....have a look at this video, and see if you sail/cruiser/voyage near any of these tracks....






3. Marine VHF DSC is built into every new marine VHF set and so, you should have this for short distance, at least.
Yes....
And, MF/HF-DSC is ALSO built into EVERY new Marine HF set sold in the US (and in most other countries as well)....and this has been the case for over a decade now...
(how much longer will it take for both the sailing/cruising media and internet posters to grasp this and actually jump on-board???)



The value of voice comms over marine SSB and/or ham radio.

1. You can almost always find some station on the air. Almost always, a way to connect to the Maritime Mobile Service Net. While this is a ham net, in an emergency, that does not matter. There are so many stations listening on this frequency, it can be better than the USCG.
Yes, this is true....and as a long-time ham, I very proud of what the many fine ham operators have done to save lives at sea...
But, the MMSN is not part of the GMDSS...

And, lest we forget that one of the primary goals of the GMDSS under SOLAS, is to eliminate human error and other factors that can cause delay and/or wrong assets to be deployed, and/or to the wrong location...



2. Does the USCG maintain a voice watch on some marine SSB channels, or do they not? We know they stopped 2.182, which is fine.
Yes, they do....
Please see this page for details....
DSC DISTRESS

--- For laypersons, in brief, all USCG stations (except Kodiak, AK) monitor 8291 and 6215, 24hrs/day....
--- With the US East Coast stations and Honolulu, also monitoring 12290 daytimes, and 4125 nighttimes...
--- And, Pt. Reyes, CA monitors 4125, 6215, 8291, and 12290, 24hrs/day...
--- Kodiak, AK monitors 4125 and 6215, 24hrs/day (with 8291 available on request)
--- USCG Guam, monitors 12290 daytimes, and 6215 nighttimes....

(16420 is available at all stations, upon request)

But, for a 12-15 db advantage in DSC (multiple FEC-SITOR messages), and for the advantage of getting you signal out to all SOLAS vessels as well as coast stations other than the USCG, Aus AMSA, and NZ Taupo Radio, DSC is a very useful tool, is it not???



3. In an extreme situation, such as abandoning ship, you are probably not going to be fooling around with the radio, you will be in the life raft with the EPIRB, and hand held VHF.
Yes, this is true...(and I do NOT wish to imply that HF-DSC is a substitute for a properly registered EPIRB. EPIRB's are great, and they are BOTH part of the GMDSS...)

But, a couple points of clarification...

DSC-Distress messaging is a one-button operation, that takes just a few seconds (typically about the same time to grab/activate your EPIRB), and requires NO other human interaction after that...and it will continue sending out your distress message over-and-over again (as long as your radio still has electrical power), until it is responded to by either your RCC or another vessel....
And, this distress message has your exact GPS position in it.....and this is instantly sent out to the RCC and other vessels, without the delays that the COSPAS-SARSAT system can have, please see this thread and the links provided there for details on this....
EPIRB Activation? What happens/How to improve rescue odds

And, this thread as well...
Icom M-802 DSC-Distress Signaling, what really happens!

This one-button "automatous" DSC-Distress messaging was designed to eliminate this "fooling around with the radio"....and to give accurate identification and position information to all....as well as reduce/eliminate any other factors (such as choosing the correct channel, as they are monitoring multiple freqs)....




One note: the situation is almost certainly different between the EU and the US. With the EU much more rigorous, in their DSC requirements. So...let's be sure to distinguish between the two regions.
The GMDSS is "Global" and hence is the same everywhere...
What is different in Europe, is the distances covered are almost always in Sea Area A1 and A2, so their implementations are based on their applications...

For this discussion here (sailing offshore), these differences are fairly moot...



So, with the few above comments, please feel free to contribute. I, for one, would certainly welcome the information.
John, I hope you feel the same way about contributed comments after you read all of what I wrote??

~~~~~

Finally....I thought it best to leave all of the above factual info separate from my opinions, below...
And, I hope those with differing opinions will do the same and clearly delineate opinion from factual info...

John, you wrote this first....but I think (in my opinion) it is a bit of a red herring, so I decided to move it to last....hope you don't mind...
In my opinion, it might be a bit unfair to do price comparisons between a new M-802 (a 21st Century DSP radio) and a used M-700Pro (a great radio in its own right, but a bit dated as a 1980's design)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
This is just to start a discussion on the relative merits of DSC on HF Marine SSB transceivers. Currently, as we know, the only solution for such is the ICOM M802, which is pretty expensive. You can easily find an ICOM M700Pro, used, for less than half what an 802 goes for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
Given the money, there is no question that I would have it. However, given the financial constraints that most cruisers have, I think a discussion is worthwhile. [and the 700Pro is still one of my all time favorite radio's]
While I agree the M-700Pro is a very fine radio, when I read the words you write here, the first thing that pops into my head is that I can buy a used Nokia GSM cell phone (or other 5 - 10 year old models) for less than $20, while an Iphone 5S would set me back a few hundred dollars....but they are NOT the same things are they?? Yes, they're both "phones", but the similarity ends there...

Now, I understand and freely admit the differences between the M-802 and the M-700Pro are NOT this vast...
So, perhaps we should look at new vs. used (and newer tech vs. older tech) in Icom ham radio prices....
The new IC-7600 sells for about $3500, and was the replacement for the IC-756ProII and ProIII... (with its big brothers IC-7700, selling for about $6900....and the IC-7800, selling for about $10,500...)

http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/0076.html
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/0277.html
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/0277.html

The "comparable" ham radio to the M-802 would be the IC-756ProII or ProIII, both selling used for about $1200- $1800 used....
http://www.ab4oj.com/icom/oldicom.html

And, with the "current-production comparable" ham radio to the M-802, the IC-7600, not really too "comparable" as it has a LOT of fancy bells 'n whistles, displays, etc. but in actuality the IC-756ProII and ProIII (and M-802) have BETTER blockingDR and LOWER osc phase noise than the newer IC-7600, with the IC-7600's close-inDR being phase-noise-limited and within statistical variations (3db) of the IC-756ProII and III (and the M-802)....
This still shows that the "current-production comparable" IC-7600 is TWICE the price of the M-802....


The "comparable" Icom ham radio to the used, older-tech M-700Pro would be the IC-765....which sells for about $500 - $700 (about what the used M-700Pro sells for)


Again, I hope you see my point here....even though it is just my opinion, I think it is unfair to do price comparisons between new vs. used and newer tech vs. older tech...without fully flushing out the differences....
And, flushing out all of these differences is beyond the scope of this thread....
But as you, yourself, pointed out, NO ham radio has DSC....so this whole price comparison process is flawed (moot?)...

So, while saying that most cruiser's are on a budget and we all understand the need to prioritize, saying that an MF/HF-DSC radio is not necessary because "it's too expensive" and "you can buy a 15-20 year old radio for 1/2 or 1/3 the price" are in my opinion very disingenuous, and short-sided...

I don't criticize those that equip their boats and themselves with every new whiz-bang gizmo, and/or network everything together so that they can run their boat from their bunk with an iPad, etc...
But, for supposedly learned/experienced sailors (and radio guys) to say/imply that MF/HF-DSC radios are "too expensive" compared to 15 - 20 year old (older tech) radios is just a bit too much for me to let slide without comment...

~~~~~~~~~~




I hope the facts I presented up top, are not over-looked by those reading my opinions at the bottom....

Fair winds, and happy DSC-messaging!!

John
s/v Annie Laurie


P.S.
For more videos and discussions regarding the M-802, have a look at this thread...
Icom M-802 Instr Videos(basic-adv) & LIVE DSC-Distress Call
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:17   #6
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

DSC Distress Statistics from the USCG Navcen for December 2010 to give a relative effectivness of DSC:

"GMDSS Statistics Total of the USCG Atlantic Area available above shows a significant reduction in the number and rate of false alerts during 2000. The false alert rate for HF DSC was comparable to other GMDSS systems, including 406 MHz EPIRBs.

USCG radio watchstanders and ship operators had been overwhelmed by the number of inappropriately transmitted all-ship DSC distress relays. The USCG issued a notice to mariners in an attempt to reduce the numbers of relays. The average number of relays for each distress message transmitted was subsequently reduced significantly."

ALERT*TYPE TOTAL DISTRESS RELAYS URGENCY FALSE YTD YTD*FALSE
Non‐R21*VHFDSC 5 5 0 0 5 115 105
MF*DSC 1 0 0 0 1 12 12
HF*DSC 0 0 0 0 0 48 40
2182*KHz 0 0 0 0 0 19 10
HF*VOICE 0 0 0 0 0 2 0
MONTH*TOTAL 6 5 0 0 6
YTD*TOTAL 47 3 0 24 21
F‐77 0 0 0 0 0 5 0
INM‐B 2 0 0 2 0 15 0
INM‐C 0 0 0 0 0 31 25
MONTH*TOTAL 2 0 0 2 0
YTD*TOTAL 47 3 0 24 21

Sorry about the spacing--CF edits out the spaces.
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:51   #7
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

No doubt if someone wanted to, they could cobble together a software based soundcard mode program to exactly duplicate the DSC features of the M802 with a ham transceiver.
This will never happen of course for a multitude of financial, regulatory, and practical considerations, but it is an interesting concept with which to waste forum bandwidth......

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Old 05-05-2014, 06:57   #8
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

Hi John

Thanks for the excellent reply. This is the sort of discussion I was hoping to stimulate here.

I agree, HF DSC has numerous advantages. One that should be underscored for those who do not frequent the use of SSB Voice is that digital signals sent over HF and can be interpreted by other digital HF systems at a level that would be not be heard, otherwise.

Still, when I read the many threads on comms here and on other sites, two things are apparent:

1. Many sailors want to do comms as inexpensively as possible. Many many more now are turning to ham rigs, due to the paucity of reasonably priced HF rigs available (essentially, there is only one now, the 802). The thread that spurred this one, was centered on that.

2. Indeed, it is a simple thing to input your MMSI, many many people are not doing this, and do not have a valid station license. Still more still do not understand how to use DSC. The post above on the number of false alarms makes my point.

This is why I think a conversation on the relative merits of HD DSC is worthwhile. Either it is valuable enough for these sailors to make the effort to buy it and use it properly, or not.

So, a quick review of the stronger advantages.

1. The signal is much stronger and has a better chance of being deciphered by the receiving station.

2. In addition to SOLAS ships, there are numerous shore stations. Could you detail those, so as to demonstrate their advantage. Who are they and what do they do?

The disadvantages remain the same:

1. No matter how easy it is or how many times anyone on here says someone *should* do something, such as get a station license, or input their MMSI, the reality is that not many people heed this advice. I think we should ask ourselves how can we be more encouraging and helpful.

2. And again, if the HF rig is not connected to GPS and a properly registered MMSI input, it is not very useful. This point could be debated.

3. I think we need to recognize that there is a significant difference in the price of an 802, and a used 700Pro or ham rig. This, to me, is an issue. ICOM could have updated the entry level rigs with DSC, it is not expensive, but chose not to do so. That left us with one, expensive model....and that is not good for us. My posit is that sailors are using other means, rather than DSC. Spot is popular.

My best to all

John
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Old 05-05-2014, 13:28   #9
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

John,
Here is some further comment....


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Drake View Post
Still, when I read the many threads on comms here and on other sites, two things are apparent:

1. Many sailors want to do comms as inexpensively as possible. Many many more now are turning to ham rigs, due to the paucity of reasonably priced HF rigs available (essentially, there is only one now, the 802). The thread that spurred this one, was centered on that.
While in years past I saw the same....in more recent times (the past 5 years or so), I see MANY sailors/cruisers who have extensive (and expensive) communications / data processing / entertainment gear on-board...
In fact most of the cruisers I meet / speak with wonder how I survive without even one iPad / tablet when they have 2 or 3, and typically multiple smart phones as well...
And, I see many even coastal cruising and/or island-hoping in the Bahamas with sat phones and data kits....

Fact is an M-802 is cheaper than an Iridium phone, docking station, and/or data kits, ext. antenna, etc....(and even just the handheld phone is > $1000)


Smartphones / iPhones are EXPENSIVE...
An unlocked, no-contract iPhone 5 is > $700...
And an iPhone 5s w/ a contract is still $400...

iPhone 5s - Buy iPhone 5s in 16GB, 32GB, or 64GB - Apple Store (U.S.)


Another fact iPads are EXPENSIVE....
iPad Air's w/ 64G are > $800....
And even the cheaper iPads are > $400 - $500

https://www.apple.com/ipad/compare/


Now maybe they'll have a laptop or two as well...

Not to mention a $400+ long-range Wi-Fi system on-board...
And, maybe even a $500+ cellular/3G/4G repeater / booster....

So sorry, I just don't buy into this "I'd gladly step away from 1980's technology and buy an Icom M-802, but it's just too expensive"....that is mostly hogwash from those who have been "sold" on all the fancy whiz-bang gizmos / smartphones / tablets / apps / etc. and have never had the GMDSS explained to them 9and have no clue what HF-DSC is, nor how it works)...and now have littlte-to- no more money to spend on electronics!!!

Yes, there ARE sailors/cruisers that have serious budget issues and simply cannot afford to spend the $$$....but when I hear that bemoan from someone who owns a smartphone and a tablet, and has a 3G/4G data plan, etc...it just does not hold water for them....and don't get me started on the guys with fulltime sat comm on-board saying that an M-802 is just too expensive....




2. Indeed, it is a simple thing to input your MMSI, many many people are not doing this, and do not have a valid station license. Still more still do not understand how to use DSC. The post above on the number of false alarms makes my point.
Yes, there are false alarms....but NOT nearly as many as there used to be...
I interpret Don's post above, showing a fairly low rate of false DSC alarms...
Quote:
GMDSS Statistics Total of the USCG Atlantic Area available above shows a significant reduction in the number and rate of false alerts during 2000. The false alert rate for HF DSC was comparable to other GMDSS systems, including 406 MHz EPIRBs.



This is why I think a conversation on the relative merits of HF DSC is worthwhile. Either it is valuable enough for these sailors to make the effort to buy it and use it properly, or not.
Yes, I agree this discussion IS a good one!!! (thanks for starting it!)
[And, while it is no secret that I believe HF-DSC has significant value for offshore sailors / long-rage cruisers, perhaps the better guide here is for those very sailors to take a GMDSS course, where they can actually understand what the GMDSS is, how it works, and how they can better utilize whatever parts of it they can afford to fit to their sailboats...
And, this point is what I have been trying to get across to many, for the past 10 years or so....maybe someday I'll not need to be so strident?? ]



So, a quick review of the stronger advantages.

1. The signal is much stronger and has a better chance of being deciphered by the receiving station.
Yes...



2. In addition to SOLAS ships, there are numerous shore stations. Could you detail those, so as to demonstrate their advantage. Who are they and what do they do?
In addition to the "usual players" such as the USCG, Australian AMSA (VMC, VMW, etc.) , New Zealand Maritime Authority (Taupo Radio), South Africa (Cape Town Radio), Brunei (Brunei Bay Radio), etc. (and others as well) all providing full HF-DSC coverage, there are many, many, many coast stations providing MF-DSC (2187.5khz) coverage....

I'm going to have to try a "cut 'n paste" from a PDF to get them all listed here (as there are dozens and dozens and dozens)....
BTW, while I fully understand the advantage to this discussion regarding having a list of all these coast station, please be aware that the user does not need to know who/where their signal is being received at, but just that it IS being received!!!
[And, FYI, they are all listed in the current GMDSS master plan, so anyone who cares to learn about the GMDSS would have all of this info at their finger tips....I have it stored in a PDF in "my documents" in both of my laptops for reference]



The disadvantages remain the same:

1. No matter how easy it is or how many times anyone on here says someone *should* do something, such as get a station license, or input their MMSI, the reality is that not many people heed this advice. I think we should ask ourselves how can we be more encouraging and helpful.
More encouraging and helpful???
Yes, that's a great idea...
(and I've been doing this for years, without much success....but I'm not giving up...)

Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea if everyone promoting/selling HF radios would at least include links to the FCC ULS system in their paperwork...or even better as Gary at Dockside does, apply for the license for them...



2. And again, if the HF rig is not connected to GPS and a properly registered MMSI input, it is not very useful. This point could be debated.
To be clear it will NOT transmit a DSC message without an MMSI# programmed...
If a bogus MMSI# is used it will transmit a DSC message with a bogus identifier and while the USCG might still take that seriously, it is doubtful anyone else will...So, it's as good as useless...
And, if there is no position info, but there IS a valid MMSI#, this is still a useful message...

BUT...

But, to be blunt here John D. I fail to see the rational for discussing what does NOT work...
Why not simply discuss what DOES work???

If you have a DSC radio, VHF-DSC and/or MF/HF-DSC, you MUST get a REAL VALID MMSI#, and you must have a valid ship's station license and operators license!!!
This is not only the law/rules, but also how the "System" of the DSC-features of the GMDSS works....
It does NOT work otherwise....and I'm unwilling to further discuss "how it doesn't work", as I see that as a rather fruitless effort....(there are a lot of ways it doesn't work...like if you had no electrical power, etc...)



3. I think we need to recognize that there is a significant difference in the price of an 802, and a used 700Pro or ham rig. This, to me, is an issue. ICOM could have updated the entry level rigs with DSC, it is not expensive, but chose not to do so. That left us with one, expensive model....and that is not good for us. My posit is that sailors are using other means, rather than DSC. Spot is popular.
Sorry we just see things differently, I guess...
No worries though...

As I wrote above...
"in more recent times (the past 5 years or so), I see MANY sailors/cruisers who have extensive (and expensive) communications / data processing / entertainment gear on-board...
In fact most of the cruisers I meet / speak with wonder how I survive without even one iPad / tablet when they have 2 or 3, and typically multiple smart phones as well...
And, I see many even coastal cruising and/or island-hoping in the Bahamas with sat phones and data kits....

Fact is an M-802 is cheaper than an Iridium phone, docking station, and/or data kits, ext. antenna, etc....(and even just the handheld phone is > $1000)"



My best to all

John

More details later...

Fair winds..

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 05-05-2014, 14:51   #10
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

John D, et al,
I tried to answer your questions....by posting the answers here...but Cruiser's Forum would not allow...

The message I got was:
The text that you have entered is too long (472605 characters). Please shorten it to 60000 characters long.

So, the information is out there....I'll try to figure out how to get it to 'ya...

Fair winds...

John
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Old 05-05-2014, 15:14   #11
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

John D, et al
You asked for the details....so here they are....

As I wrote above...
"In addition to the "usual players" such as the USCG, Australian AMSA (VMC, VMW, etc.), New Zealand Maritime Authority (Taupo Radio), South Africa (Cape Town Radio), Brunei (Brunei Bay Radio), etc. (and others as well) all providing full HF-DSC coverage, there are many, many, many coast stations providing MF-DSC (2187.5khz) coverage....

And, here is a video that gives you some idea of where these SOLAS ships are transiting...



As for HF-DSC Coast Stations and MF-DSC Coast stations....there are 100's and 100's of them...

Here is some info from a recently (July 2013) updated GMDSS doc (the whole thing is 178 pages long!!! so, I'll not be posting much here, but you'll get the gist...)
The listings of the VHF-DSC shore stations is 45 pages long....the MF-DSC shore station listings are 20 pages long....and the HF-DSC Coast Station listings are 6 pages long....

The whole doc is available many places, such as the USCG....
Download it here...
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/marco...ss1_circ15.pdf


I'm not sure what everyone wants/needs to read here...but my experience here on this Forum and on other Forums, is that very few will actually click on a link and read what's there...as many think "if it ain't here, then it ain't important"....so, with that in mind, maybe I should try to post as much as I think might be useful???


MASTER PLAN OF SHORE-BASED FACILITIES FOR THE GLOBAL MARITIME DISTRESS AND SAFETY SYSTEM (GMDSS MASTER PLAN)

Here are the current listings of 100% Operational HF-DSC Coast Stations....(there are more planned/under-construction....and there are about 4 times as many MF-DSC Coast Stations, as there are HF-DSC Coast Stations)

Sorry, I've had to delete some of the details of the HF-DSC coast stations and ALL of the info on all of the 100's of MF-DSC coast stations....since Cruiser's Forum isn't capable of handling a post long enough....
So, here is just the "abridged" version....


1
NAVAREA
Country
Name
MMSI
Position
Status of implementation
Purpose
(SD*/PS)
Frequency Band*
Watch hours
2
I
Côte d'Ivoire
Abidjan
006191000
05°19'.34N 004°01'.02W
Operational
PS
N. I.
24 hrs
MRCC Abidjan
3
Spain
Madrid CCR
002241078
40°21'.48N 003°17'.04W
Operational
SD
8, 12 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Madrid
4
III
Azerbaijan
Baku (Caspian Sea)
004231000
40°19'.63N 050°36'.73E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Azerbaidjan LRIT NC
5
Cyprus
Cyprus Radio
002091000
35°03'.00N 033°17'.00E
Operational
PS
4, 8, 16 MHz
24 hrs
JRCC Larnaca
6
III (cont.)
Iran (Islamic Republic of)
Anzali Radio (Caspian Sea)
004225500
37°28'.00N 049°27'.00E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
7
Amir Abad Radio (Caspian Sea)
004225601
36°51'.00N 048°17'.00E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
8
Isarel
RCC Haifa
428000008
32°48'.00N 035°00'.00E
T
SD
4,8,12
24 hrs
9
Romania
Constanta Radio
002640570
44°06'.00N 028°38'.00E
Operational
PS
4, 8, 12 MHz
24 hrs
Constanta Harbour's Master
10
Spain
Madrid
40°31'.00N 003°17'.00W
Operational
SD
8, 12 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Madrid
11
Syria
Lattakia Radio
-
35°32'.05N 035°46'.00E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
- - -
12
Turkey
Istanbul
002711000
40°59'.00N 025°49'.00E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MSRCC Ankara


13
IV
Canada
Iqaluit
003160023
63°43'.00N 068°33'.00W
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs2
JRCC Halifax/Trenton
14
United States
Boston
003669991
41°42'.00N 070°30'.00W
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Boston
15
Portsmouth
003669995
36°44'.00N 076°01'.00W
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Norfolk
16
Miami
003669997
25°37'.00N 080°23'.00W
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Miami
17
San Juan
003669992
18°28'.00N 066°07'.00W
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
San Juan
18
New Orleans
003669998
29°53'.00N 089°75'.00W
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
New Orleans
19
V
Brazil
Manaus Radio
007100003
03°07'.00S 059°55'.00W
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Brazil - Salvamar Brazil – Rio de Janeiro
20
Recife Radio
007100002
08°04'.00S 034°55'.00W
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
21
VII
22
Mauritius
Mauritius Radio
006452700
20°11'.00S 057°28'.00E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
23
South Africa
Cape Town Radio
006010001
33°41'.00S 018°43'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Cape Town
24
VIII
India
Mumbai
004192203
18°55'.00N 072°50'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24hrs
MRCC Mumbai
25
Chennai
004194401
13°06'.00N 080°18'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Chennai
26
Port Blair
004194409
11°41'.00N 092°46'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24hrs
MRCC Port Blair
27
Porbandar
004192202
21°38'.00N 069°37'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Mumbai
28
Haldia
004194404
22°02'.00N 088°06'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24hrs
MRCC Chennai
29
Mandapam
004194406
09°17'.00N 079°05'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Chennai
30
Daman
004192201
20°25'.00N 072°52'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24hrs
MRCC Mumbai
31
IX
Iran (Islamic Republic of)
Abbas Radio (Persian Gulf)
004225300
27°06'.00N 056°03'.00E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
32
Khomeini Radio (Persian Gulf)
004225100
30°25'.00N 049°03'.00E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
33
X
Australia
Wiluna
005030001
26°20'.45S 120°33'.4 E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
RCC Australia
34
Charleville
005030001
26°19'.83S 146°15'.85E
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
35
XI
China
Shanghai Radio
004122100
31°06'.00N 121°32'.00E
Planned [2002]
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Shanghai MRCC
36
Guam (U.S.)
Sector Guam
003669994
13°25'.00N 144°50'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24Hrs
RSC Guam/RCC Honolulu
37
Indonesia
Amboina
005250006
03°41'.57S 128°10'.40E
Operational
PS
4,6,8 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Ujung Pandang
38
Balikpapan
005250009
01°16'.15S 116°48'.30E
Operational
PS
8 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Surabaya
39
Banjarmasin
03°19'.40S 114°35'.35E
Planned
PS
N. I.
24 hrs
MRCC Surabaya
40
Belawan
005250003
03°43'.17N 098°40'.08E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Jakarta
41
Bitung
005250005
01°26'.50N 125°10'.53E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Ujung Pandang
42
Dumai
005250004
01°41'.10N 101°27'.20E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Jakarta
43
Jakarta
005250000
06°07'.28S 106°51'.16E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Jakarta
44
Jayapura
005250007
02°31'.10S 140°43'.22E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Biak
45
Kupang
005250010
10°12'.49S 123°37'.24E
Operational
PS
8 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Ujung Pandang
46
Makassar
005250002
05°06'.30S 119°26'.20E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Ujung Pandang
47
Semarang
005250008
06°58'.35S 110°20'.50E
Operational
PS
8 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Surabaya


48
Sorong
005250011
00°53'.03S 131°16'.29E
Operational
PS
8 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Biak
49
Surabaya
005250001
07°11'.05S 112°44'.08E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Surabaya
50
Cilacap
005250030
07°44'.25S 109°02'.23E
Operational
8 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Jakarta
51
Merauke
005250021
08°37'.00S 122°13'.08E
Operational
8 MHz
24 hrs
MRSC Merauke
52
XI (cont.)
Philippines
(cont.)
San Jose
12°20'.00N 121°05'.00E
San Jose
53
Davao
07°07'.00N 125°37'.00E
Davao
54
Puerto Princesa
09°44'.36N 118°44'.00E
Puerto Princesa
55
Surigao
09°46'.55N 125°30'.00E
Cagayan de Oro
56
Cebu
10°16'.18N 125°52'.53E
Cebu
57
Zamboanga
06°54'.13N 122°04'.16E
Zamboanga
58
General Santos
06°05'.23N 125°09'.10E
General Santos
59
Republic of Korea
Incheon Coast Guard Station
004401001
37°27'.00N 126°36'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Incheon RCC
60
East Regional HQs
Korea Coast Guard
004401002
37°29'.00N 129°07'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Donghae RCC
61
West Regional HQs
Korea Coast Guard
004401003
34°47'.00N 126°32'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Seohae RCC
62
South Regional HQs
Korea Coast Guard
004401004
35°07'.00N 129°03'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Namhae RCC
63
Jeju Coast Guard Station
004401005
33°31.00N 126°32'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Jeju RCC
64
Seoul Radio
004400002
37°32'.00N 127°05'.00E
Operational
PC
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Incheon RCC
65
Thailand
Bangkok Radio
005671000
13°34'.00N 100°39'.00E
Operational
SD
4, 6, 8, 12 MHz
24 hrs
Bangkok RCC
66
Viet Nam
Ho Chi Minh-Ville/ XVS Radio
005743030
10°23'.32N-107°08'.57E
Operational
PS
8 MHz
24 hrs
Vungtau MRCC VMRCC
67
Hai Phong/XVG Radio
005741050
20°52'.00N 106°42'.00E
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Haiphong MRCC VMRCC
68
Da Nang/XVT Radio
005742030
16°04'.00N 108°13'.00E
Operational
PS
6, 8 MHz
24 hrs
Danang MRCC VMRCC
69
Associate Member of IMO
Hong Kong, China
Hong Kong Marine Rescue Radio, Cape D'Aguilar
004773500
22°12'.57N 114°15'.03E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Hong Kong MRCC
70
XII (cont.)
United States
San Francisco
003669990
37°56'.00N 122°44'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Alameda
71
Kodiak
003669899
57°46'.00N 152°34'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Juneau
72
Honolulu
003669993
21°26'.00N 158°09'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
Honolulu
73
XIV
Fiji
RCC Suva
005201100
18°08'.00S 178°26'.00E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
RCC Funafuti
RCC Tonga
RCC Nadi
Nat. Surv. Centre-Samoa Mar. Div.-Tarawa
RCC Canberra
74
New Zealand
Taupo Maritime Radio
005120010
38°52'.16S 176°26'.13E
Operational
SD
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
RCC New Zealand


75
XV
Chile
Antofagasta
007250050
23°40'.67S 070°24'.48W
Operational
SD
4 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC iquique
76
Isla de Pascua
007250100
27°08'.98S 109°26'.22W
Operational
SD
4 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Valparaiso
77
Valparaiso
007251860
33°04'.70S 071°36'.80W
Operational
PS
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Valparaiso
78
Talcahuano
007250170
36°41'.48S 073°06'.52W
Operational
SD
4 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Talcahuano
79
Puerto Montt
007250230
41°28'.83S 072°57'.67W
Operational
SD
4 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Puerto Montt
80
Magallanes
007250380
53°09'.92S 070°54'.28W
Operational
SD
4, 8 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Punta Arenas
81
XVI
Peru
Paita
007690121
05°05'.00S 081°07'.00W
Operational
PS
8 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Paita
82
Callao
007600125
12°03'.00S 077°09'.00W
Operational
PS
8 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Callao
83
Mollendo
007600129
17°01'.00S 072°01'.00W
Operational
PS
8 MHz
24 hrs
MRCC Mollendo
84
XVII
Canada
Iqaluit
003160023
63°43'.00N 068°33'.00W
Operationa
(open during navigation season only
4,6,8,12,16 MHz
24 hrs
RCC Halifax
RCC Trenton








And, I'm not sure I can get all of these pages to paste here...but I'll try....
Okay, they didn't post....sorry about that...

You asked for the info....and here is the best I can do here in this Forum...If folks desire more (and I hope they do), they should take a GMDSS class....just like they take navigation classes, sailing classes, safety / first aide classes, diesel maintenance classes, etc...


[QUOTE=John Drake;1533487]The disadvantages remain the same:

3. I think we need to recognize that there is a significant difference in the price of an 802, and a used 700Pro or ham rig. This, to me, is an issue. ICOM could have updated the entry level rigs with DSC, it is not expensive, but chose not to do so. That left us with one, expensive model....and that is not good for us. My posit is that sailors are using other means, rather than DSC. Spot is popular.

Sorry we just see things differently, I guess...

I actually do NOT see any disadvantages....for any sailor/cruiser that has ipads, smartphones, laptops, ext. Wi-Fi system, and/or cellular/3G/4G boosters, etc. and/or sat phone, etc...this argument just doesn't hold...

No worries though...

As I wrote above...
"in more recent times (the past 5 years or so), I see MANY sailors/cruisers who have extensive (and expensive) communications / data processing / entertainment gear on-board...
In fact most of the cruisers I meet / speak with wonder how I survive without even one iPad / tablet when they have 2 or 3, and typically multiple smart phones as well...
And, I see many even coastal cruising and/or island-hoping in the Bahamas with sat phones and data kits....

Fact is an M-802 is cheaper than an Iridium phone, docking station, and/or data kits, ext. antenna, etc....(and even just the handheld phone is > $1000)"





I hope this helps explain some...

Fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 11-05-2014, 10:47   #12
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

John D, et al,
I received a couple e-mails thanking me for posting the above info....(I just wish I could've gotten Cruiser's Forum to post all of it!)

FYI, I suspect most of you aren't interested reading over 100 pages of station listings, etc....
So, for those who are interested in the nitty-gritty facts....here they are:

Currently worldwide, there are 84 operational HF-DSC shore stations monitoring HF-DSC....

And approx. 450 operational MF-DSC shore stations monitoring MF-DSC....

And over 1000 (??, I lost count after a few hundred) operational VHF-DSC shore stations monitoring VHF-DSC....

(all of this info from the GMDSS Master Plan update, July 2013)

There are MORE operational HF Maritime shore stations nowadays, than there has been in decades....and probably more than there ever has been!!

Maritime HF communications is NOT a dying technology....not at all...
It has simply moved away from "Voice watch" (guys listening to static for hour after hour), to a "DSC Watch"....


With DSC being an integral part of the GMDSS for the past 20 years (and mandatory required for all SOLAS signatories and all SOLAS vessels for the past 15 years, since Jan 1999)....
I'm still wondering when are "cruisers" going to understand that "SSB Voice" will only do "so much" these days....and "DSC" is an important feature to fully understand and make your equipment decisions accordingly??? (not simply say that they cannot afford the extra $1000, but then have a new iPad sitting next to them???)



Fair winds to all...


John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 11-05-2014, 10:58   #13
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
John D, et al,
I just wish I could've gotten Cruiser's Forum to post all of it!)



John
s/v Annie Laurie
Is it in a file?

If so you could upload it to the net and link to it here.
If you dont have that facility you could email it to me and I will put it on my website to which you could link to.


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Old 11-05-2014, 12:19   #14
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

I think the OP has a valid point, but only a small one. Obviously financially strapped cruisers are going to have to make compromise choices. This is true of all the choices they make from the boat upwards.

Hence its not really a discussion point. Yes its better to have some form of HF , then none, equally better to have a Marine HF and Ham HF ( licensed ) as well. Best off, have ham HF, marine HF, MF, DSC, VHF, GPIRB, AIS , SARTS, yada yada.

One of the key things I find is that DSC really needs a training course, in Europe , you cannot license DSC VHF, MF or HF without doing an appropriate training course. This is very useful for non professionals and in my view should be encouraged world wide. It also explains the GMDSS and how that system works to co-ordinate rescues worldwide.

For reference, I bought my Iridum 9500 for $380 on ebay, plus a Peli type case for $50. Thats all you need to make it work. I don't use prepaid minutes ( this is to avoid the types of issues Rebel Heart faced and my contract is with a premier well known marine comms agency) .I have never suffered an outage at any time in the last ten years and I disconnect the account during periods of disuse. ( new number on reconnect)

dave
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Old 11-05-2014, 12:44   #15
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Re: Call on HF DSC....maybe.

Mark,
Yes, it is in a file....
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Is it in a file?
The info is public, and is update annually, and is available thru multiple sources and on multiple websites....
The 178-page IMO GMDSS Master Plan (pdf file) that I referenced above is on a USCG page that I referenced...
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/marco...ss1_circ15.pdf
And is also available at the IMO, etc.
(and I have in stored in both my laptops...)


BUT....
But, the GOOD NEWS is that there actually is little reason for most mariners, and NO reason for the average cruising sailor to have the listing of all these stations....
As, the whole point of DSC (and HF-DSC, in particular) to cruising sailors is to ELIMINATE any need to select a specific channel and/or try to decide on who to call, and/or where the shore stations are, etc...
Rather, DSC allows the cruising sailor to "push a button" and have their DSC message (alert, identity, position, and even the type-of-alert) to be sent out to EVERYONE (all shore stations and all SOLAS vessels) within range....
And, a "six-freq" DSC message, going out on all six GMDSS DSC freqs (or until a response/ACK is transmitted)...

This means that one of the goals of the GMDSS is met here...."a high probability of your message getting through to a shore station, and other vessels in your area"....

So as you see, with DSC, there really is NO need for a cruising sailor to worry about which shore station to call, nor "where" to call....as the DSC message is designed to go EVERYWHERE that is within range of that frequency at that time of day...




Now, for internet discussions....having the ability to SHOW everyone all these shore stations that are out there listening, goes a long way to showing why HF-DSC is a VERY important feature to consider!!!
Which is why I posted the link to the document...
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/marco...ss1_circ15.pdf
And, why I tried to post all the info here...

But, the important facts are simply that there ARE all of these (84 HF-DSC, and ~ 450 MF-DSC) shore stations out there right now, listening for DSC calls 24/7, worldwide....




I do hope this helps clarify things...


fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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