Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-07-2012, 00:29   #61
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobconnie
Me 74 yrs old started fishing comm at age 9 with my father a comm fisherman all his life !! fished all the places your talking about starting in the early 50s !! and my dad solderd his conections to LOL So what, I do it my way you do it yours! your never gonna change me and Im not even tryin to change you ! never said you must do it my way !! Give it up im to old to change now LOL
I never said there was anything wrong with soldering as long as there's strain relief and decent insulation. In fact I called BS on the peeps who claim vibration is a problem.

I challenged the crappy crimps of hand-tinned wire with copper tubing, vice grips, and air voids. Because we've all probably bought boats and found hot, high resistance, connections about to fail as the copper strands turn to green goo. Yeah, it works for awhile....

You have 22 years on me, but the rest sounds pretty familiar. Doubting the Bering Sea fishing in the early 50's tho--unless you were after salmon in Bristol Bay. Back then, people could easily fill their holds with whatever they wanted from the inside passage.

I'm not trying to change anyone (except people who might be my next previous owner). Just saying the anecdotal crap we always hear "(It worked for me for n years") is a specious argument. "I played Russian Roulette 100 times and it never hurt me, therefore I recommend you do it, too." Give me a break. Eventually enough statistical samples get reported, and bad practices stand out--even tho they sorta get the job done in the short term.

You guys are pretty touchy. Before you get all butt hurt, read carefully. Some of you might also want to pay closer attention to whom is saying what to whom.

Started at 9, huh? The traditional age for Ballard Norwegians. I bet we knew the same people.
__________________

__________________
Jbaffoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 00:53   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld

No...3rd liveaboard...tens of thousands of miles pole to pole on USCG cutters, factory trained installer (Furuno, Raymarine, Simrad), delivery capt...and another whole page or so including 2 yeard living/boating on Kodiak iIsland...so yeah..I know the difference between commecial repairs and YACHTTIE repairs....both work but one costs a heck of as lot more too sometimes...

Yes your way and materials are superior...but you post as if the others don't count like YOU are superior...which you are not.
Cool, glad to hear. You've obviously seen a lot--congrats. My point was only to address your implication that I lacked experience at sea. You've seen things I haven't, I've probably seen things you haven't.

As for those high dollar yachtie repairs, I repeat: $0.15 each for 3M tinned copper butt connectors or ring terminals with adhesive lined double wall polyolefin heat shrink. Add $40-$50 for a proper crimper, and $25 for an adequate butane heat gun. Most of our weekly booze budget exceeds that. Especially at Tony's in Kodiak.
__________________

__________________
Jbaffoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 02:13   #63
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,016
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay
A general "rule of thumb" is that solder has roughly 5x the resistance of copper.
Copper’s conductivity is roughly six times higher than tin’s! Fine solder typically consists of more than 60% tin.
Thus, a gas-free crimp connection is always preferable to a solder connection.
Yes but no. The crimps I have used have all been tin plated. As is the wire So the tin is there either way. Plus the distance is so short that the bulk resistivity of tin vs copper is irrelevant.

There are good reasons to crimp conductors on boats. But tin resistivity is not one of them.
__________________
daddle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 05:14   #64
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,586
Images: 240
Re: Butt Connector vs Solder

Daddle’s comments regarding tin plated components are correct. My argument, however, was directed towards drewzn’s comment that solder improves conductivity. It does not.

I can see no advantage in soldering connections on a boat (over crimping).
- Not conductivity
- Not sealing out moisture & air
- Not mechanical strength
- Not ease or simplicity of execution
- Not reliability

I simply cannot recommend soldering connections on a boat.

Caveat Emptor:
FWIW, I’ve never commanded a commercial vessel, nor sailed the Beaufort Sea, nor reached my seventieth birthday.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 05:52   #65
mrm
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Poland, EU
Boat: crew on Bavaria 38 Cruiser
Posts: 651
Re: Butt Connector vs Solder

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
I can see no advantage in soldering connections on a boat (over crimping).
- Not sealing out moisture & air
- Not mechanical strength
- Not ease or simplicity of execution
I would tend to agree, with one big assumption: the crimp being *properly* done. However, I have seen so many crimps so poorly executed, with tools and materials from a dollar store, that I tend not to trust them unless done by someone who I know to have high workmanship standards. That being said, proper soldering takes some skill too.

As for heat shrink tubing, in my opinion only the glue lined type should be used on a boat.
__________________
mrm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 11:51   #66
Registered User
 
Auspicious's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: HR 40
Posts: 1,793
Send a message via Skype™ to Auspicious
Re: Butt Connector vs Solder

At one time in my life I was space qualified for ESD and soldering. I was dragged kicking and screaming to crimps. If I could be convinced you should be also. I don't solder anything anymore except PL-259s and if I can find a good quality crimp connector to replace the silver-nickle parts I use now I'll retire my solder completely.
__________________
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks
Beware cut and paste sailors
Auspicious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 18:30   #67
Registered User
 
poppyduc's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tin Can Bay Qld
Boat: Seawind 1160
Posts: 50
Images: 31
Re: Butt Connector vs Solder

Well if nothing else talking about crimps and solder certainly got some conversation going thanks to all for their comments and input.
Well done they both work.
At the end of it all, we all want the same thing just to have the work done not fail and leave us alone to enjoy our boats what ever they be.
Fair winds to all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post
Cool, glad to hear. You've obviously seen a lot--congrats. My point was only to address your implication that I lacked experience at sea. You've seen things I haven't, I've probably seen things you haven't.

As for those high dollar yachtie repairs, I repeat: $0.15 each for 3M tinned copper butt connectors or ring terminals with adhesive lined double wall polyolefin heat shrink. Add $40-$50 for a proper crimper, and $25 for an adequate butane heat gun. Most of our weekly booze budget exceeds that. Especially at Tony's in Kodiak.
__________________
poppyduc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 18:54   #68
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Newport News VA
Boat: Egg Harbor sedan cruiser 1970
Posts: 829
Re: Butt Connector vs Solder

I suppose all those soldered circuit boards should have all the components crimped on or the high resistance solder will prevent them from working.
__________________
sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 20:31   #69
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld

I would hope that most beginners trying to solder know the difference between rosin/acid core solder....
Nope. No idea
__________________
Chris
SailMentor.com - Become the Confident Skipper of Your Own Sailboat
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 20:45   #70
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: Butt Connector vs Solder

I guess you never heard of halibut fishing in the Bering Sea ! They been fishing them there before I was Born LOL just saying there maybe a lot you don't believe in includeing my type of connections LOL Lets just leave it at I do it my way and you do it yours, and let us all get along!! you wont change anyones ideas on here anyway !! LOL hope ya have as much fun sailing as Connie and I have over the years !!
__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 22:09   #71
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobconnie
I guess you never heard of halibut fishing in the Bering Sea ! They been fishing them there before I was Born LOL just saying there maybe a lot you don't believe in includeing my type of connections LOL Lets just leave it at I do it my way and you do it yours, and let us all get along!! you wont change anyones ideas on here anyway !! LOL hope ya have as much fun sailing as Connie and I have over the years !!
I fished halibut off St. George and St. Paul. On a 65-foot halibut schooner built in 1923, and an 88-foot converted tuna seiner built in 1944. Also off Sand Point, Trinity Islands, Portlock Banks, Kodiak, Kayak Island, Yakutat, the Fairweather grounds, and more. Sold halibut in Dutch, Kodiak, Pelican and Seattle--maybe other trips I've forgotten. Plus black cod, King Crab, and Tanner Crab in other areas.

In the old days, most Seattle boats fished closer to home because it wasn't necessary head out to Attu's or Kiska's namesakes. Sure, many went to the Bering Sea, but in the 40's to 60's, you could slither up the inside passage and fill up in Icy Straight, Chatham, or just outside Cross Sound, and sell in Pelican or Juneau. In my day (late 70's and 80's) we had to venture farther out.

Remember the Polaris? Vansee? Atlantic? Fremont? Tordenskold? Thor? Majestic? Republic? Sunset? Northwyn? Olympic? Seymour?

I'm from an old family of longliners. I still carry gangion material on my sailboat. If you fished halibut, you know my family.

I don't give a damn about your electrical connections. But if you fished on a halibut schooner, I'd like to know more.
__________________
Jbaffoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 00:27   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Victoria, BC
Boat: 49' Defever RPH
Posts: 17
Re: Butt Connector vs Solder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbaffoh View Post
And my grandfather smoked for a thousand years and they didn't punch a hole in his trachea until he was 94. But most people succumb to small cell carcinoma much sooner. What's wrong with paying $50 for a proper tool and $0.15 for a proper connector?

Yeah, crappy methods work--until they fail. And they do fail.
unless you're buying in large quantities, proper connectors are much more than $0.15. The quality adhesive lined ones will run around $1/connector if buying in small quantities. The $0.15 ones are most definitely far inferior to even a poor solder job.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Daddle’s comments regarding tin plated components are correct. My argument, however, was directed towards drewzn’s comment that solder improves conductivity. It does not.

I can see no advantage in soldering connections on a boat (over crimping).
- Not conductivity
- Not sealing out moisture & air
- Not mechanical strength
- Not ease or simplicity of execution
- Not reliability

I simply cannot recommend soldering connections on a boat.

Caveat Emptor:
FWIW, I’ve never commanded a commercial vessel, nor sailed the Beaufort Sea, nor reached my seventieth birthday.
Theory aside, in practical application, solder+heatshrink has a distinct advantage over "regular" (non-heatshrink) crimp connectors in the following areas:

*note: when i say heatshrink, i mean decent-quality adhesive lined heatshrink.

-Conductivity: most regular tin connectors crimped with regular tools will NOT cold-weld to the wire. Moisture will degrade the connection. Even if they did, the current still needs to travel through the tin connector a much further distance than it would in a solder joint. In a good solder joint, the wires will be intertwined and touching. Don't believe me? run a multimeter across an old crimped connection and measure the resistance. Compare to old soldered connection.

- Cost: Solder+heatshrink is the cheapest method of making a secure, good conducting connection.

- Weather-proofing: Solder+heatshrink is weatherproof. Crimp connectors are not.

-Mechanical strength: This is easier to prove using old connections that will fail quickly, but can be done with fresh ones.

Take about ten examples of crimp joints, and ten examples of solder joints. Now stress these joints in various fashions until failure. IE: pull until failure, twist until failure, move around until joint fails due to fatigue, etc.

You will find that in every case, a properly executed solder joint will outperform the crimp joint. A crimp joint creates a hard point in the line, one which is much more pronounced than that which a solder joint makes.

Crimp joints have one MAJOR winning point: Ease of use, and herein stems their popularity.

Now, crimp connectors with adhesive heatshrink sleeves close the gap between crimp and solder considerably, however solder still has a couple advantages:

-Solder+heatshrink will still be more mechanically sound on small gauge wires, as the bulk of the crimp connector creates undue stress.

-It is trivial to detect a bad solder joint, however you're likely to miss a bad crimp when crimping.

- It is possibly to compromise the heatshrink around acrimp while attempting to crimp the connector, creating a place for moisture to get in.



In practical applications, on wire sizes between around 8awg and 16awg, both solutions will be acceptable. On fine wires, solder is the only way to go. Much larger wires will be difficult to solder correctly, and solder will have a larger impact on the mechanical strength.

I would venture to say most of this anti-solder propaganda stems from efforts by crimp manufacturers. Many large suppliers offer instruction to the trades people who use their products, and of course the information they supply favors their products.
__________________
Reo Baird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 12:28   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 238
Re: Butt Connector vs Solder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reo Baird View Post
unless you're buying in large quantities, proper connectors are much more than $0.15. The quality adhesive lined ones will run around $1/connector if buying in small quantities. The $0.15 ones are most definitely far inferior to even a poor solder job.
Wrong! They're the same connectors!

Yes, you need to buy in quantity. $30 for an assortment of 200 3M tinned copper with double wall polyolefin adhesive lined heat shrink.

Or, you can go to West Marine and pay $5 for three Ancor connectors, which are sourced from manufacturers like 3M. I have both, and they're indistinguishable.

So we're not talking huge quantities or large expenditures. You just need to order the stuff 3 days in advance or stock up instead of walking into the closest chandlery at the last minute.
__________________
Jbaffoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 14:15   #74
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,830
Re: Butt Connector vs Solder

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
I suppose all those soldered circuit boards should have all the components crimped on or the high resistance solder will prevent them from working.
Quote of the day !
__________________
Memento,homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2012, 14:23   #75
Registered User
 
psneeld's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Avalon, NJ
Boat: Albin 40 double cabin Trawler
Posts: 1,831
Re: Butt Connector vs Solder

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
Quote of the day !
Exactly...someone smart enough to step back and laugh at all the internet "experts"..
__________________

__________________
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
paracelle

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.