Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 29-01-2018, 15:31   #61
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 21,770
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Most installers if they are good, will choose the AGM setting, and not try to program actual voltages even if the charger will. Close, but no cigar.
Most normal installers, will just install the batteries and walk away, lord knows what the charger is set for, and itís good for business as heís coming back for another set of batteries in another year, two at most.
__________________

a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 15:36   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NH
Boat: sabre 28
Posts: 169
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Some batteries you can, Lifeline in their manual has a chart for SOC for batteries when under a 20 hour to 50% discharge load, and an 8 hour to 50% load. The numbers are very close to being the same.
Never have understood what a SOC chart that requires the batteries to be under zero load for hours is good for, what cruising boat disconnects their banks for hours, regularly?
I hear ya but the fla trojans I have do require a minimum of 6 hours rest, 24 is recommended. If one has a battery monitor, you know the story.

The OP has a problem with his chargers. Evidently they were not large enough, configured correctly or have failed. Either way, glad I'm not him. 800 AH of batteries, that's going to be painful.
__________________

__________________
I'm not happy unless I'm complaining about something. I'm having a very good day!
misfits is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 15:36   #63
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Boat: Catalina 400
Posts: 253
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Most installers if they are good, will choose the AGM setting, and not try to program actual voltages even if the charger will. Close, but no cigar.
Most normal installers, will just install the batteries and walk away, lord knows what the charger is set for, and itís good for business as heís coming back for another set of batteries in another year, two at most.
So a GOOD installer will not look at the manufacture's spec for charging and simply flip a couple of dip switches and call it a day?

No wonder I have so many customers.
kenbo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 16:14   #64
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 7,378
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Voltage is a very poor indicator of SoC.

Huge variations in the relationship with charge vs discharge, depending on current and duration.

Not only is their correspondence different for each model even at rest,

it changes as bank SoH declines.

Not completely useless, but a very rough ballpark even if you do try to take those variables into account.
john61ct is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 16:25   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Alert Bay, Vancouver Island
Boat: 35ft classic ketch/yawl.
Posts: 1,298
Images: 4
Send a message via Skype™ to roland stockham
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenbo View Post
You can and should equalize Lifeline AGM's
OK I may be out of date on this one, lifeline does indeed recommend equalization.
presumable the recombination technology for minimizing water loss has improved. Water loss though remains the limiting factor on all sealed batteries. Any water used cannot be replaced and at some point the battery will die because of water loss. I also don't want to hijack the thread into a discussion of battery types.
roland stockham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 16:59   #66
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 21,770
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenbo View Post
So a GOOD installer will not look at the manufacture's spec for charging and simply flip a couple of dip switches and call it a day?

No wonder I have so many customers.


Not really. I was just trying to say that many installers donít know as much about your system as you should know.
In truth I donít trust most people to do things, as Iíve not run into a Maine Sail or others that clearly have forgotten more than Iíll ever know. They are out there, I know they are, just havenít run into them.
The OP will become quite knowledgeable about his battery bank, if he hangs out here, and reads Main Sails knowledge base etc. when he gets there, he wonít trust others to program his chargers either.

However his problem really could be as simple as a loose ground, here is hoping so anyway.
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 17:02   #67
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 21,770
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
OK I may be out of date on this one, lifeline does indeed recommend equalization.
presumable the recombination technology for minimizing water loss has improved. Water loss though remains the limiting factor on all sealed batteries. Any water used cannot be replaced and at some point the battery will die because of water loss. I also don't want to hijack the thread into a discussion of battery types.


You mistreat a Lifeline and it will hiss at you, short it out for example.
That is of course the valve releasing gas, which has to mean water loss.
However under normal charging and discharging and no real altitude changes, I think they are really sealed, the valve doesnít open.
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 17:04   #68
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 21,770
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

I know the Concorde aircraft battery very well.
Iím certain that the Lifeline battery is actually an offshoot of the Concorde aircraft battery. There may be some differences of course, but I believe the Concorde came first, and it is by far the best normal aircraft battery there is.
Normal meaning lead acid.
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 19:12   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 7,378
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Concorde Battery Corporation is the family owned and operated company that makes Lifeline brand AGMs.

Just in case anyone mistakely thinks they had anything to do with the Concorde aircraft, that is not the case.

When AGM was new, the top vendors thought low charge rates and equalization were a good idea.

Over the years Lifeline and others discovered that high charge rates were good for longevity, between .2 and .4C as a minimum.

They also stopped recommending equalization, except for Lifeline.

That exception is, according to many, a good reason to buy them over the other brands.

Both Odyssey and Northstar are however also fine products.
john61ct is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 20:39   #70
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C.
Boat: CS27
Posts: 1,934
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
......I would not be suprised to find the shunt if fitted after the rotary switch.

The other thing I would check is the 3 way rotary switch. These are notorious failure points, Ideally bin it and get something better. Boat builder love to fit them as they are cheap and simple but they really have no place on a cruising boat. Power levels are to high and they regularly fail. They also present a significant fire risk because as they fail they create high resistance and start generating heat.

Should be replace with either a 0v drop splitter or a diode block and smart regulator
The shunt for the Victron BMV will not be near the switch as it is in the negative lead, first connection after the post assuming it is installed correctly.

A 3 way rotary to me means a 1/2/both switch for selecting a particular battery bank for a given use. While they are certainly not my favorite, my preference being a simple on/off for each use, I don't see how they can be replaced with a diode splitter and smart regulator.

Ideally the charger output should be direct to the house bank. Each other battery can be charged with an ACR or other type of zero loss battery to battery charger. If that is what you mean I stand corrected.

The the op - the Phoenix @ 50 amps is way too small for your battery bank, enen without the 30 amp load and charging of other batteries on board. The company that recommended that charger was very wrong on sizing it. With the 30 amp load what is left is basically a trickle charge for a battery bank that large. Rolls recommends bulk charging be 25% of capacity @ the 20 hour rate. For your 600AH bank that is 150 amps ignoring the 30 amp load. The minimum size charger I would suggest is 100 amps.
mitiempo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 21:51   #71
Registered User
 
Bermuda Forte's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 41
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Following- Ďneed to know what the OP finds and the solution.
Bermuda Forte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2018, 22:54   #72
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Prospect NS Canada
Boat: CS36T
Posts: 43
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

It looks to me as if your charger is incorrectly configured. For AGMs, battery voltage while under charge should be around 14V.
fguptill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2018, 02:15   #73
Registered User
 
NYSail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Long Island, New York
Boat: Beneteau 423 43 feet
Posts: 193
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Check your ground..... I had issues when first bought boat last season. Turned out to be a corroded ground wire from battery to monitor terminal. Also ground on starter had signs of rust. Once I replaced wire and cleaned everything I had no issues.
NYSail is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2018, 16:44   #74
Senior Cruiser
 
hzcruiser's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Boat: Roberts 45
Posts: 406
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

While measuring the batt voltage at the terminals I'd also check if any connections get noticeably warm after say 10 mins of your 30A load. If there is a drop of say 500mV on one connection it will dissipate 15W which will cause a distinct temp increase.
__________________
Fair winds,
heinz
hzcruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2018, 16:58   #75
Registered User
 
NYSail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Long Island, New York
Boat: Beneteau 423 43 feet
Posts: 193
Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Yup, an oxymoron.

Check the ground at the engine.
Check the ground at the engine.
Check the ground at the engine.
Check the ground at the engine.
Check the ground at the engine.
Check the ground at the engine.
Check the ground at the engine.
Check the ground at the engine.

Then check all the rest of the connections. All of them.

By check, this means:

Remove them, pull on the lugs, check the condition of the wire into the lugs, if OK add heat shrink if it isn't there.

Good luck.
Stu is 100% right..... check the grounds! he directed me (NYSail)
Good luck!
__________________

NYSail is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Feedback/Ideas welcome, in fact very much appreciated :) Captain Rob Roy Sailor Logs & Cruising Plans 10 16-05-2016 14:53
Xantrex Monitor Problem OR Battery bank problem? svstrider Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 4 26-12-2011 20:08
Battery-Charging Regulator Problem ? MasterVolt Problem ? RJV Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 18 06-11-2011 22:53
36' Endeavour G-Force Sport Cat - Comments and Thoughts Appreciated! Rolf the Rotten Multihull Sailboats 0 26-10-2010 11:21
Draft depth for Caribean Islands - how much is too much? theloneoux General Sailing Forum 11 07-08-2005 13:21



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.