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Old 28-01-2018, 14:05   #31
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

From the Victron Manual

Adaptive Charging
The new Phoenix Charger uses the Adaptive
Charging Characteristic. The Adaptive Charging
Characteristic distinguishes from other charging
characteristic on several topics. The main 3 topics
are Rapid Charging, Battery Safe Mode and All
Season Mode.
Generally speaking the Phoenix Charger will
adapt to the connected batteries.

and

Equalize a traction set
This is done at a higher voltage than most DCequipment
can handle so all consumer electronics
should be disconnected before equalizing the
battery.
Put the charger in off position. Switch ON-OFFON
within 2 seconds.
Youll see all the LEDs flashing 5 times. After
the 5th time all LEDs illuminate in sequence:
Bulk switch OFF-ON when this LED lights up.
Now the charger increases its voltage up to 1 Volt
above Absorption voltage for a 12V model or 2
Volts for a 24V model. The maximum current in
this mode is limited to of the adjusted maximum
charge current. The charger will stay in this mode
for 1 hour and then switches to Float mode.
Equalizing will only work with an already charged
battery. If the battery voltage remains too low (see
specs) for > 60 seconds the charger switches to
Bulk mode and continues charging according
normal charging characteristic.

I have not used traction mode and not sure I understand if I should.
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Old 28-01-2018, 14:06   #32
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

... and you have 8 of the Rolls 100Ah batteries in parallel?

Carsten
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Old 28-01-2018, 14:06   #33
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

12/50 with remote panel
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Old 28-01-2018, 14:11   #34
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Unfortunately, if these batteries have been undercharged for a year, capacity has been lost. How much? depends. But if they are charged fully to Rolls' spec and the voltage still drops quickly then lost capacity is probably the problem.

Rolls' spec for charging their AGM's is @25C 14.7v absorption and 13.8v float. End absorption at 0.7% of Ah capacity.
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Old 28-01-2018, 14:22   #35
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

... pretty sure they have been undercharged (with the Phoenix delivering max. 50A - so max. 6.25A per battery 'if the batteries are still equal').

Before switching to the Rolls batteries, you had also 8x 100Ah or did you upgrade capacity?

Regards,

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Old 28-01-2018, 14:34   #36
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Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Still try all the connections, I like to use an SS toothbrush to clean things, and then apply a light coating of silicone grease.
Connections are easy and cost nothing to eliminate as a problem.
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Old 28-01-2018, 14:37   #37
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Oh, and a 50 amp charger isnt going to be enough.
Reason is of course you have to subtract your house load from the Chargers capacity, in your case that is 50 -30, leaving only 20 amps to charge an 800 AH bank.
Just as a reference I have 185 amps of chargers for my 660 AH AGM bank.
One of the great features of an AGM bank is that they can accept very high charge rates, and in fact these high charge rates seems to be good for the bank.
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Old 28-01-2018, 14:45   #38
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Oh, and a 50 amp charger isnt going to be enough.
Reason is of course you have to subtract your house load from the Chargers capacity, in your case that is 50 -30, leaving only 20 amps to charge an 800 AH bank.
Just as a reference I have 185 amps of chargers for my 660 AH AGM bank.
One of the great features of an AGM bank is that they can accept very high charge rates, and in fact these high charge rates seems to be good for the bank.
But if the OP states he hasn't really used the batteries off shore power since they were installed about a year ago, that 50A charger should eventually charge the bank if it's 24/7 shore power. My question is what is the absorption voltage set point?

But I do agree the charger is too small for that bank.
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Old 28-01-2018, 15:03   #39
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Sorry I have checked the specs it is 6 Rolls in parallel 600AH in total. The previous batteries were Lifeline, also AGM. The charger was specifically selected by the same company for the batteries. Yes, since the batteries have been installed I doubt they have been off the charger for more than half a dozen occasions and then never for any great length of time as it has pretty much been all day sailing and back on shore power in the evening. In fact to be even more exact having checked the bill 6 x 105 AH Rolls. The house batteries are also on continous charge from the solar panels with 880W on a MPPT controller.
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Old 28-01-2018, 15:28   #40
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Not to doubt the charger being under spec. I have checked Victron's data sheet and they say 200-800 AH as being the battery capacity suitable for the charger. I agree its towards the top end.

BTW I also have a Charles charger (not sure the AH but I think a lot more). I have never tried running both at the same time. Is this possible? My logic was that with both running do they both "know" when to go to float? I had the same concern running the solar with the charger (whcih I did) but was told by the marine electrical engineers it was fine.
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Old 28-01-2018, 16:12   #41
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenbo View Post
......
Rolls' spec for charging their AGM's is @25C 14.7v absorption and 13.8v float. End absorption at 0.7% of Ah capacity.
To keep these Rolls in good shape you will need to modify the default AGM charging profile of your charger to meet the above spec and to follow the spec'd temperature adjustment.

You should try to set all your regulators to match these as much as is practical, chargers, engine regulators, solar regulator, etc.
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Old 28-01-2018, 16:18   #42
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Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ip485 View Post
Not to doubt the charger being under spec. I have checked Victron's data sheet and they say 200-800 AH as being the battery capacity suitable for the charger. I agree its towards the top end.

BTW I also have a Charles charger (not sure the AH but I think a lot more). I have never tried running both at the same time. Is this possible? My logic was that with both running do they both "know" when to go to float? I had the same concern running the solar with the charger (whcih I did) but was told by the marine electrical engineers it was fine.


I get to 185 amps by having two, one 60 and one 125.
Then I have 1000 W Solar, I run both chargers and the Solar at the same time.
If you have a generator and even if you only weekend, you want big chargers to keep from running your generator all day long, unless of course your running the AC, cause then your running it all day long anyway.
Your Solar once you subtract your house loads pretty much doubles your charging capacity, and ought to keep up during your day sails.

Back to ensuring your set voltages are correct, if they are, then assuming good connections, you should be fine.
If they were incorrect, if possible Id strongly consider running your batteries through an equalization cycle, if its allowed and the manufacturer gives instructions how to.
You may have to do that manually if the voltage and time cant be set in your charger, a way to do that is to adjust both absorption and float voltages to the equalization voltage, but of course you have to end it at the required time, manually.

Of course 600 AH bank is a little small for your boat, that of course only gives you 300 AH useable assuming a perfect bank, which none are, and a 30 amp load has it discharged to 50% in ten hours, actually less as no bank with any age in it actually gives rated capacity.
Assuming an unlimited charge source size, it takes at least five hours to fully recharge a good AGM bank, as they age, it takes longer.
That is assuming a BIG charger, the batteries will only accept high rates for the first few minutes, mine will for only 20 min, but that first hour of charge I put in maybe 150 AH, if the bank was deeply discharged. The last two hours, I may get 10 AH into the bank.
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Old 28-01-2018, 16:30   #43
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I get to 185 amps by having two, one 60 and one 125.
Then I have 1000 W Solar, I run both chargers and the Solar at the same time.
If you have a generator and even if you only weekend, you want big chargers to keep from running your generator all day long, unless of course your running the AC, cause then your running it all day long anyway.
Your Solar once you subtract your house loads pretty much doubles your charging capacity, and ought to keep up during your day sails.

Back to ensuring your set voltages are correct, if they are, then assuming good connections, you should be fine.
If they were incorrect, if possible Id strongly consider running your batteries through an equalization cycle, if its allowed and the manufacturer gives instructions how to.
You may have to do that manually if the voltage and time cant be set in your charger, a way to do that is to adjust both absorption and float voltages to the equalization voltage, but of course you have to end it at the required time, manually.

Of course 600 AH bank is a little small for your boat, that of course only gives you 300 AH useable assuming a perfect bank, which none are, and a 30 amp load has it discharged to 50% in ten hours, actually less as no bank with any age in it actually gives rated capacity.
Assuming an unlimited charge source size, it takes at least five hours to fully recharge a good AGM bank, as they age, it takes longer.
That is assuming a BIG charger, the batteries will only accept high rates for the first few minutes, mine will for only 20 min, but that first hour of charge I put in maybe 150 AH, if the bank was deeply discharged. The last two hours, I may get 10 AH into the bank.
Rolls does not recommend equalization, although if the batteries turn out to be dead then they may offer up a recipe to try and recover. These are very robust batteries, treat them well and they will last a very long time.
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Old 28-01-2018, 20:49   #44
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

I could start praising LiFePo4, but I'll let others find those threads.
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Old 29-01-2018, 09:48   #45
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Re: Battery problem thoughts much appreciated!

Haven't reviewed all the other comments for this.
Are you charging the mains through an isolator while the charger is directly charging and sensing off the other banks?
This would charge your main batteries at ~0.7V lower and lead to inadequate charge (lower voltage/higher current under load) and reduced life.
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