Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-08-2012, 18:50   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,048
Images: 12
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

Radar electromagnetic power decreases with the square of the distance. How many other vessels operating their radars are you expecting to be that close to you? I don't think that disadvantage of broadband radars is experienced in practice.

How close to objects do you need radar to avoid? Our Furuno unit gets good returns from dinghies and dugout canoes at 100'. I don't think that disadvantage of pulsed radars is experienced in practice.

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2012, 22:56   #17
Registered User
 
xymotic's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,076
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Radar electromagnetic power decreases with the square of the distance. How many other vessels operating their radars are you expecting to be that close to you? I don't think that disadvantage of broadband radars is experienced in practice.

How close to objects do you need radar to avoid? Our Furuno unit gets good returns from dinghies and dugout canoes at 100'. I don't think that disadvantage of pulsed radars is experienced in practice.

Mark
I agree, I will also say though that on a cruising boat, particularly a sailboat the power savings is a HUGE plus in the boradband column.

And instant on is another feature that I think is far more important than most give credit for.
__________________

__________________
xymotic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2012, 18:13   #18
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 8,243
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

By the way, at Dockside, the Raymarine and Simrad display units were side by side with other units right nearby, also I believe the raydomes were on the roof right near each other. Perhaps the Simrad / Navico Broadband is a little more sensitive, but when do radars get so close together? - after it is too late?
__________________
rgleason is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2012, 18:32   #19
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 8,243
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

We currently have a 1993 Autohelm RC9 Radar with 7" B&W display
Raydome weight: 11 lbs
Range: 12 miles
Power: 12vdc, 30 watts
Mounted at 12' above water on backstay Waltz. ( will only see 12 miles, so 12 mile range is fine, why buy more?)
Autohelm ST4000 Wheelpilot uses 65ma on standby, on Auto 0.7a and 2.5a
Our boat is 32' sloop with a short waterline length of 22' so heavy radars are not good when on a backstay mount. This dedicated radar takes about two minutes to warm up. It works well in our coastal application, but it does create a load on our batteries when the engine is not running.

I am looking at the potential of a new Chartplotter - Radar for the boat, but am finding the current radars too big, heavy and powedependent. This appears to be the available options:

Raymarine E7 or E9 and RD418D 4kw Digital Radar $1,049
Weight: 21 lbs
Size: 20.5" dia 9.7" height
Range: 48nm
Power: 40w transmit and 20w standard
E7 Chartplotter: 13.2 watts at full display brightness (E95 full bright =16w)

Simrad NSE8 or NSE12 and FMCW (Frequency Modulated Continuous Wave) Broadband Radar
Weight: 16.3 lbs, no cable
Size: 19.3" wide x 19.24" x 11" high
Range: 3G = 24nm, 4G = 36nm
Power:
BR24 Radar - (3G transmission power doubled w 30% more range above BR24).
3G Radar 18 watts, standby 2.0 watts, instant on, 24nm , $1499 (transmission power doubled
4G Radar 20 watts, standby 2.9 watts, instant on, 36nm , $2,299 - beam sharpening
Is 4G worth it? See Range is determined by height 1.22nm x sq root height of radar + 1.2nm x sq root ht of target
So a radar 9ft above water and looking for boat of same size, won't see it until within 7.3 nm.
Therefore 12nm range is fine.
NSE8 Power: 33.6W or 2.8A @ 12.0 VDC same for NSE12 - NSE8 ($3,295) NSE12 ($4.595) 12" 1024x768 1500 cd/m2
NSS7 Power: 15.6W or 1.2A @ 13VDC - NSS7 ($1,795) NSS8 (2,845) NSS12 ($3,995) 800x600 Touch

Pros & Cons
- Instant On, Low power use, No dead zone, Good target definition, Low radiation hazard.
- Units appear to be sensitive to EMR interference & loss of target definition because signal is low radiation.
- Questions: -Weather? Seeing Rain and thunder and lightning long distances?
- 3G Radar range of 24nm is overkill (mounted at 12' above waterr), weight is 5 lbs more.
Lowrance HDS 7 0.8amp at 133vdc w backlight, 0.4amp backlight off
Similar to Simrad Radars
3G Radar $1299 18 watts operating and 2.0 watts standby
4G Radar $1800 20 watts operating and 2.9 watts standby
B&G Zeus
B&G 3G Radar $1699 000-10422-001
Offers Racing information similar to Maxsea in a waterproof display, but not as flexible programatically.
-------
Our backstay mount radar is on a gimbal 12' above water. The maximum range for a similar height object is
1.22nm x sq root height of radar + 1.2nm x sq root ht of target
1.22nm x sq root of 12' + 1.2nm x sq root of 12'
1.22nm x 3.464 +
1.22nm x 3.464
4.22nm + 4.22nm = 8.4nm
Therefore we will only be able to see about 8 nm Miles over the curvature of the earth!
PURCHASING a 24nm or 36 nm RADAR and suffering the added weight (aloft or on the stern), windage due to size, and battery depletion is pure insanity.

---------

I wish Raymarine and Navico would WAKE UP and make a smaller radar, say 9"-10" high and 15"-16" dia. that goes 12-14 miles maximum, as what we are most concerned about is vessels going fast and getting closer. The Sirus weather eliminates some of the advantages of radar for seeing rain and storms at a distance, so I think a smaller radar would be a much less expensive and popular choice.

Second, I would like to encourage Raymarne to license the Simrad/Lowrange Radar (and a smaller FMCW Broadband) to connect to the E Series.

----------

Why? Because these radars the 3G and 4G offer the following:
1. Huge Power Savings compared to Raymarine 28 W (9 W Standby) and the total of about 7.5 amps for radar + display.
2. Instant on
3. Excellent resolution close up
4. Very little RF for safe use
5. Acceptable weight (16.4 lbs) -This is still a bit too much for our backstay mount on a 32' sailboat with a 22' waterline, because the extra weight on the tail end will make the boat hobby horse sooner (our current 1993 Autohelm weighs 12 lbs and I actually wish that weighed less)
6. 24nm (3G) or 36nm (4G) Range (--actually only need 12nm! See above calcs.)
7. If Raymarine does not license or create a viable alternative, we will have to go with Simrad or Lowrance when they get a smaller radar. I like the e Series and it goes with my instruments and autopilot.

Quite frankly, I would like to see a new smaller radar that uses less power and is lighter. I think this radar would find its way onto many smaller boats. For example:

Power: 18W, Standby 2W ( a smaller radar might be even less power, but this is acceptable)
Range: 12 to 16nm (My Autohelm is 12 miles)
Weight: 10-12 lbs (My Autohelm RL7 is 12 lbs)
Size: 16.5" dia x 10" (or less)
Instant On or Fast on with low standby consumption and Low radiation

If the manufacturers could make such a radar as pulse or preferably license a new smaller Broadband Simrad, I'd purchase for next year.
The current large 21 lb radar is simply unsuitable for my boat, too heavy and too large. The current Simrad Broadband is too much windage and too large and a little too heavy.
My next hangup is the cost of these things!!!

__________________
rgleason is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-08-2012, 21:45   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,048
Images: 12
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

Furuno's 19"x8.7" radar weighs 14lbs - pretty close to what you have now.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-08-2012, 15:26   #21
Registered User
 
rgleason's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1981 Bristol 32 Sloop
Posts: 8,243
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

Furuno DRS2D Radar MRSP $2,600
19" x 8.7", 24nm, 2.2kW, 14.3 lbs,
MFD8 Display =29w / 73w (with DRS2D Radar) so radar uses 44w
MFD10 Display=41w / 86w (with DRS2D Radar) so radar uses 45w
Ultra High Definition Digital Radar
Incorporates a powered network port to connect wind, gps, & satellite compass sensors.

This Furuno radar + display looks fully featured and very nice, but the energy use is not good. Size of radar should be matched better to the 12nm distance we can actually use at 12' above the water, anything more than that is a waste as we will never use it, but will suffer the battery use and weight and windage! It does meet weight concerns.

Also to be considered is Garmin:
GMR-18HD 4kw, 36nm, 15.8lb, 18"dis x 9.3" high, 33.5 watts, pulse https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=13489

GMR-18 4kw, 36nm, 15.8lb, 18" dia x 9.3" high , 33.5 Watts, Pulse https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=8050

Yes, these are pretty good pulse radars, that are closer to the size and weight we can actually use! However they fall very short on energy use, instant on, no dead zone. Why have a larger radar that is sized for distances that cannot be used? I am sure with your help we can get beyond "One Size Fits All" mentality.

Rick
__________________
rgleason is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-07-2014, 10:14   #22
Registered User
 
BLACKBIRD1's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: St. Augustine,fl.
Boat: charley morgan-38
Posts: 25
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

rhunton,,We are looking at the B&G Zeus T-8,for a 38-1 morgan,im interested in how and where you mounted your radar unit, Thanks for your advice, also I love this site !!!!
__________________
BLACKBIRD1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-07-2014, 12:26   #23
Registered User
 
jr_spyder's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Boston area
Boat: Little Harbor 46 (1988)
Posts: 207
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

Back to the OP's question I don't think you can go wrong with any MFD on the market today so it's a matter of small feature differences, compatibility and ease of use. I did a complete electronics refit two years ago and agonized over every brand/feature and ultimately decided on B&G for it's sailing specific features that clearly come out of their sailing heritage (before the days of Navico). Since then they continue to innovate more for sailors than anyone else it seems, and have clarified their brand strategy with B&G focused on sailing, Simrad on power boats, and Lowrance for fishermen. Of course there's a lot of crossover of features, so it's just the subtleties that differentiate the units. The clearest example is the "Sail Steer" capability on the Zeus. This advances the idea of laylines to a new level. Take a look at their YouTube video. It's seriously cool in real operation on my boat.

Although the cosmetics and interface is different between B&G and Simrad they use the same plumbing. A fair amount of my gear behind the cabinets is labeled Simrad - autopilot, routers, weather module, more. It doesn't matter.

While sailing coastal within cell range your tablet probably gets more useful weather than Sirius delivers, but once offshore the Sirius overlay is still very useful.

I have 4G radar but no real experience with any other. All I can say is it does what I need it to do just fine. Clarity seems to be a matter of tweaking the gain and other settings, but maybe there's something missing that I don't know. The overlay of chart, radar and AIS really can keep you out of trouble, but is usually far more than I need and too much to look at.

JR
__________________
jr_spyder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-07-2014, 15:33   #24
Registered User
 
muttskie's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: Kadey Krogen 39
Posts: 180
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

Has anyone tried the new Zeus 2 MFDs? I'd be interested to learn any first hand experiences with them. Differences from the original Zeus? Improvements? Problems?
__________________
Bill Petras
Kadey Krogen 39
Little Fish
muttskie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 17:06   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: New Jersey
Boat: Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37
Posts: 4
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

I just installed a Zeus2 this summer. And a 4G radar unit to go with it. I really love the radar. Gad, it's such an improvement over my older tech Furuno. And the Zeus2 hardware seems great: fast, positive finger and button interface.

But I'm coming to the conclusion that when B&G says it has sailing features, it means *racing* features as distinct from *cruising* features. The native charts that come with it are appalling, with missing data, wrong data, mislabeled ATONs, and clumsy chart graphics. I will have to go buy some better ones; apparently there are several sources that are compatible with it, but of course that is all at extra cost.

When I did a Find operation to look for my next ports of call, it found Annapolis, it found Washington DC but not Washington NC, it could not find Hampton Roads or Hampton or Norfolk. What's up with that? Zero ideas.

It also takes 12 seconds to find Annapolis; what can any computer be doing for 12 blooming seconds to look up a string of text in a local solid state memory these days? I worry much that this failing is not caused by poor charts, but by poor algorithms or a lack of decent data structures.

I connected an old SimRad wind instrument to the Zeus by connecting it to an AT10 converter which translates from NMEA 0183 to NMEA 2000, which then plugs into a N2K backbone. I love the N2K backbone, and the consumer freedom it brings to this constipated marketplace.

But I also have a couple of old DataMarine instruments, and I agree with other posters that they cannot be connected to anything. Outta luck there, no fault of the Zeus. Getting their data onto the boat-wide data bus would be of value.

Another complaint, which might be just anal or might be a real safety problem: when I turn on the Zeus at the breaker panel, I have to also go to the plotter and hit the power button; then I have to wait tens of seconds to press the stupid ACCEPT button (promising I will never rely on the device to do anything serious); and then I have to wait tens of seconds again before the interface is alive. This is really annoying when it's an everyday waste of my time; but in the middle of the night when my anchor drags and I want the damn chart plotter alive RIGHT NOW, it is a serious crisis magnifier.
__________________
capnJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 17:54   #26
Registered User
 
travellerw's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Antigua
Boat: Fortuna Island Spirit 40
Posts: 1,614
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by capnJ View Post

Another complaint, which might be just anal or might be a real safety problem: when I turn on the Zeus at the breaker panel, I have to also go to the plotter and hit the power button; then I have to wait tens of seconds to press the stupid ACCEPT button (promising I will never rely on the device to do anything serious); and then I have to wait tens of seconds again before the interface is alive. This is really annoying when it's an everyday waste of my time; but in the middle of the night when my anchor drags and I want the damn chart plotter alive RIGHT NOW, it is a serious crisis magnifier.
First.. READ THE INSTALLATION MANUAL. If you want the chartplotter to start when you turn on the breaker, then you need to wire it properly. Its very clearly described in the manual.

Second.. Update to the latest firmware. Although it won't completely eliminate the issues, it will help a huge amount.
__________________
travellerw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 18:10   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: New Jersey
Boat: Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37
Posts: 4
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

I believe you are right about the wiring detail. If something is grounded properly, it will eliminate one button push of that startup sequence... but it will not eliminate either of the long delays involved. So my complaint stands.

Also, I had a dealer dude come and update the software to the latest latest as of 2 weeks ago. I don't think there is any hope for improvement on that front.
__________________
capnJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 18:23   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
Roy M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Southwestern Yacht Club, San Diego, CA
Boat: Searunner 40 trimaran, WILDERNESS
Posts: 3,010
Images: 4
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

CapnJ, it's all about the power cable, and how it's hooked up. Simrad (et al) uses three wires for the electrical hookup. It does different things if you hook it up differently. My suggestion is to run the circuit breaker to a Blue Sea fuse panel, with individual sized fuses for each electronic component. That means the breaker is sized for ALL your combined nav electronic devices. Each individual device (assuming Simrad (et al)), has a separate RED wire attached to the ATC fuse block with its own fuse requirement. Then, take ALL the yellow wires from the Simrad (et al) power cables and connect them to a SINGLE PowerPost, and all the blacks to the common ground buss. Then, go to the Settings of the Multifunction display (MFD) ad check on the display type as the Master. Everything else is Slave. Now, what happens, is that turning on the electronics nav breaker simply supplies power to everybody BUT, ONLY after you press the MFD "ON" button. It simply tells everyone else in the network that the "boss" has been turned on, and that everyone else can now do their job. It's a great system, once you figure out how to make it happy.
__________________
Roy M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 18:43   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: New Jersey
Boat: Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37
Posts: 4
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

All a good plan. Thanks. But it won't change the MFD startup delays.
__________________
capnJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 19:13   #30
Registered User
 
travellerw's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Antigua
Boat: Fortuna Island Spirit 40
Posts: 1,614
Re: B&G Zeus MFD - Has Anyone Tried it ?

I'm not sure what you are expecting.. My old Raymarine C80 takes a coons age to startup. My Zeus2 is quite a bit faster on startup.

As to slow downs in the interface. I had some issues until I updated the firmware. I would make sure your "dude" actually gave you updated firmware. This is easily checked by finding the version on your MFD and ensuring it matches the latest on the website.
__________________

__________________
travellerw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:49.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.