B&G for Cruisers: Is Zeus3 worth the cost vs Vulcan?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Touch only is ok for awhile (Vulcan), but I sure like the hard buttons (zeus) when you need them. All touch works ok in a pilothouse or large boat with little movement, but smaller boats do well with the tactile feel of a dial and buttons.

But, I have a hard time recommending anything from B&G due to their horrible customer service and quality control.

Matt

I have read a number of complaints about B&G customer service, mostly from overseas if I recall. However in the states I have had great customer service from them. Last year added an AP that mixed Simrad and B&G components (identical for most bits except for the name and a different course controller available by Simrad).

Called their tech support line a number of times before and after purchase with questions and always got to speak directly with a technician (possibly even an engineer). Every time except one I was connected immediately, less than a minute wait. The one time I wasn't I left a message and was called back within 15 minutes.

The tech knew the gear intimately and was able to answer my questions accurately and completely. Since I am an EE some of my questions were a bit technical but they were always ahead of the curve.

Have heard the same about QC but haven't had mine out enough yet for anything to break. So far, so good but knock on wood.

[Jetx]

Originally Posted by FabioC

I have a Zeus 2 and to say that I am not impressed with it is an understatement. If I were to get a new system (and if I did not have B&G Radar as well...), I would not choose B&G.

We'll be updating electronics soon and have been leaning towards B&G, so I'm curious... what things in particular have you been disappointed with?

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by saltfree

So I called up B&G to ask about multiple screens with the Vulcan line. A single Vulcan does have almost all the software features of the Zeus- but as previously pointed out, it is only an option if you only ever want a single screen. The Vulcan has an ethernet connection, but only for RADAR. It can't be used to connect to another Vulcan, or to a Zeus. In my case, my pilothouse boat has an inside and outside helm station. At this point, I can only afford an MFD at one of them (plan to mirror with an iPad at the other), but if I ever wanted to expand, then I have to go with the Zeus.

I have the Vulcan 7 in my pilothouse. I have just started using the Link software with a tablet. Surprisingly to me, the signal has no trouble getting through the steel sides of the pilothouse and I can operate the plotter with little issue at my outside helm. Seeing the forward sonar screen from the end of the boat is a real bonus. Had I not the pilothouse, I would have made different choices.

[SV Sailfish]

Originally Posted by saltfree

So I called up B&G to ask about multiple screens with the Vulcan line. A single Vulcan does have almost all the software features of the Zeus- but as previously pointed out, it is only an option if you only ever want a single screen. The Vulcan has an ethernet connection, but only for RADAR. It can't be used to connect to another Vulcan, or to a Zeus. In my case, my pilothouse boat has an inside and outside helm station. At this point, I can only afford an MFD at one of them (plan to mirror with an iPad at the other), but if I ever wanted to expand, then I have to go with the Zeus.

Hmmm... we have a Vulcan 9 at the helm and a vulcan 12 at the nav station. Both attached to a B&G 3G radar unit. All communicate with all. (plus mirrored on our iphone/ipad) This system was installed 2 months ago. All new B&G equipment so... don't know why B&G said "no" they cannot mirror. Reps, go figure.

And we love the system. Have had B&G units for years before this install. And we sail blue water long distance so also do not know why they say "Zeus" for off shore. We got the Vulcan 9/3G radar in a bundle from West Marine on sale for $1749 during a weekend sale right before Christmas. Regular price is $2,289. My West Marine buddy says they will have it at the sale price again around Spring this year so just watch for it.

Cheers!

[FlyingScot]

From this link, it appears the Zeus does the windplot over time graphs and the vulcan does not. https://ww2.bandg.com/downloads/zeus-3-software-update/

Personally I like to use both the touch screen and the buttons/knob depending on the situation. Same as on my laptop. Also, if something freezes up, sometimes the other input type will get it moving again. Personally I haven't experienced this on the Z3, but I suspect I will at some point.

Details on the screens and processors seem hard to find, but they do describe the Zeus models with terms like "all weather", "ultra wide viewing angles", "super bright" and "high performance". They don't use these terms for the Vulcan. Maybe they think these are important for 'bluewater'?

Obviously it would be best if you could spend a few minutes in full direct sun with each of them. Also a quick test with wet hands.

Edit:
Vulcan 9" screen: 800 x 480 Pixels: 384000
Zeus3 9" screen: 720 x 1280 Pixels: 921600
That's a lot more detail on the same size screen.

The 7" Z3 has 600 x 1024 Pixels: 614400
I'd probably buy the 7" Zeus3 over the 9" Vulcan.

[sailjumanji]

OK, I wouldn't buy a b&g Zeus 3. Mine installed last night brand new. We had a 90 Mike trip today and it shut off and restarted at least a dozen times. I updated software afterwards and it shutdown on its own again, while we were sitting at anchor. Brand new unit. Who would trust this on a trip?

[SilentOption]

Maybe I'm wrong but B&G, Simrad and Lowrance are all the same inside with emphasis on different features. Zeus clearly has racing applications that aren't useful to cruisers. We have a Zeus 7 that has given us great service for 5 years and a Zeus 2 that we have just installed. Both are networked to the radar and AIS. Like most sailors here I have extensive experience with Raymarine products and I hate the MFDs. I also find Raymarines customer service to be the worst ever. If something breaks or malfunctions you may as well throw it away and buy new. All that said..I have a Raymarine AP that we are very pleased with. It has been rock solid for over 7000 miles at times in very heavy weather.

[skipmac]

If not B&G (or one of their family: Simrad and Navico) then what.

So far I see the following complaints:

B&G/Simard/Navico

- poor QC
- bad tech support (absolutely NOT my experience)

Garmin

- Abandons owners of legacy equipment, often only a few years old.
- used only proprietary, Garmin charts
- ho hum tech support

Raymarine

- bad tech support (my experience it's not terrible but far from great)
- uses non-standard NMEA2000 connectors

So that leaves Furuno, Sitex, Lowrance. Did I miss any?

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by skipmac

If not B&G (or one of their family: Simrad and Navico) then what.

So far I see the following complaints:

B&G/Simard/Navico

- poor QC
- bad tech support (absolutely NOT my experience)

Garmin

- Abandons owners of legacy equipment, often only a few years old.
- used only proprietary, Garmin charts
- ho hum tech support

Raymarine

- bad tech support (my experience it's not terrible but far from great)
- uses non-standard NMEA2000 connectors

So that leaves Furuno, Sitex, Lowrance. Did I miss any?

Lowrance is Navico (a Venture Capital firm).

I find it ridiculous that in this day and age; with a company that sell technology products, you are required to call in for support (but they never returned my calls) and 100% ignored our simple tech emails until we started bashing their service in videos (they had a record of receiving my emails). Their service manager even told me that they don't often respond to email as their system is poorly set-up and the only way to get service was to call (2015-2017). I want written records of all correspondents to reference with tech discussions, and I do not want to have to make calls and remember what "solution" we came up with.

They have updated their customer service processes for 2018, but after years of horrible/non existent service and products launches where no testing is done and the customer is the bug finder (V50, Touch, Triton all had major faults at launch), I'll never, ever recommend them.

I found Raymarine's N2k connecters to be a minor irritant, but overall not that big of a deal.... At Least the connectors are high quality unlike some brands. I was extremely happy with their quality once they were purchased by FLIR.

While I'd love to be able to afford NKE and Furuno, I'll probably jump back to Raymarine next time I have to update.

Matt

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Lowrance is Navico (a Venture Capital firm).

I find it ridiculous that in this day and age; with a company that sell technology products, you are required to call in for support (but they never returned my calls) and 100% ignored our simple tech emails until we started bashing their service in videos (they had a record of receiving my emails). Their service manager even told me that they don't often respond to email as their system is poorly set-up and the only way to get service was to call (2015-2017). I want written records of all correspondents to reference with tech discussions, and I do not want to have to make calls and remember what "solution" we came up with.

Perhaps this is at least part of our different perceptions of Navico tech support. I generally prefer a phone call to email. With a phone call I can quickly and easily engage in a dialogue that usually answers my questions but also often brings other information and answers that I had not anticipated and would not have come out in a email exchange or at least not until a number of back and forths.

Also in a live conversation I can know immediately when the tech understands what I'm asking, where in an email I usually include a lot more detail (probably way more than necessary) to make sure the question is understood.

Yes if the question/answer is complex an email record can be very useful but in my experience this is a small percentage of the questions that I have had to ask.

With Raymarine I had no luck with phone calls but their website has a forum that, when I used it, was constantly monitored and questions answered within a business day. I agree the non-standard connectors aren't a huge issue but still required a lot of extra time for me since I had to mail order every adapter cable and connector to interface the Raymarine gear to my NMEA2000 network where everything else I could use the cables that I had on hand or that came with the gear.

[sailjumanji]

Well I talked to Navico tech service about my malfunctioning Zeus 3. Had me do a hard reboot, no C-map chip (apparently some of those are corrupted), and no N2K connected. The unit failed about 30 minutes later (just shut down and restarted on its own).

Navico is sending me a new Zeus 3. I had to pay for it with credit card, but they also sent me an RMA and when they receive my faulty unit they will credit the chartplotter and shipping. Emailed me the RMA about ten minutes after hanging up with them, and I just got an email saying my replacement order shipped.

So redemption on their part. I had very few problems with my Zeus 2, so fingers crossed the replacement Zeus 3 is similar. But their tech support today was outstanding.

[Tillsbury]

Re: Raymarine's non-standard connectors. It is annoying, but they are indisputably better and it's not surprising they did it when you look at the quality of standard NMEA2000 connectors.

The good news: Buy one each SeatalkNG and NMEA2000 short cables. Cut them in half and solder together -- just a few minutes' work. You now have two perfectly good cables for connecting non-Raymarine NMEA2000 devices to the SeatalkNG backbone, or vice versa depending on what your majority cabling is.

[beetle]

Originally Posted by saltfree

With all the updates to the Vulcan line (specifically either the Vulcan 9 or Vulcan 12), are there any good reasons for a cruising sailor (NOT a racer!) to spend the extra money on the Zeus3 line? Now that the Vulcans support broadband radar, it seems like almost all the features of the Zeus line are also in the Vulcans,... for 1/2 the price.

Am I missing reasons why I WOULD want to shell out the extra $$$ for a Zeus3?

I have to make a new MFD purchase very soon, so any input is appreciated!

What do you want the Vulcan or Zeus3 or MFD to do?

I try to purchase best-of-breed equipment and do the integration myself rather than locking in to one vendor for everything. Furuno makes good radars and GPS receivers, Icom has good radios, B&G has good instrumentation, Vesper has a good AIS transponder. From my perspective the Vulcan and Zeus3 are GPS receivers and chart plotters - is that what you're looking for?

If you want electronic cartography then choose the cartography that is the best for your intended cruising area, then source the hardware necessary to support that cartography.

It's difficult to beat the price point/resolution of a laptop for electronic navigation, and consider a chart plotter as backup hardware with it's own electronic cartography for when the laptop fails.

The obvious difference between the Vulcan and Zeus3 line is in the manuals: resolution, chart chip location (front or rear of unit), tactile buttons vs touch-screen only, NMEA 0183 output. There are many other differences if you sit down and compare the two manuals.

Which goes back to the question of: what do you want the new unit (Vulcan, Zeus3, MFD) to do for you?

- rob

[svmobert]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Re: Raymarine's non-standard connectors. It is annoying, but they are indisputably better and it's not surprising they did it when you look at the quality of standard NMEA2000 connectors.

The good news: Buy one each SeatalkNG and NMEA2000 short cables. Cut them in half and solder together -- just a few minutes' work. You now have two perfectly good cables for connecting non-Raymarine NMEA2000 devices to the SeatalkNG backbone, or vice versa depending on what your majority cabling is.

In a boat with more than one Raymarine device and more than one standard NMEA2000 device, you can connect the backbones and just have two sets of connectors in the boat, so you can add standard N2K drops or SeatalkNG drops as needed without worrying about adapters every time. Though it's probably cheaper to just use an adapter each time you need one.

Also to note, that Raymarine is moving away from SeatalkNG cabling. The new Axiom MFDs all have standard N2K drops and require an adapter to connect to a SeatalkNG bus. So it's going to a moot point pretty soon. All in all I have had the greatest success and support from Raymarine over time and while no one is perfect they certainly have their act together far more than most.

[leftbrainstuff]

We've had a B&G Zeus2, 4G radar, AIS, T3 autopilot system for 3 years now.

We specifically bought through Farallon Electronics due to their reputation. Eric Steinberg has provided superb tech support. This is the best way to mitigate tech and support issues IMHO.

We have had a B&G AIS brick during a software upgrade and we have had issues with B&G software updates introducing bugs. Not being able to rollback is a huge risk in updating.

But during a recent trip down the US west coast we had reliable performance from our B&G system.

I work in tech and have a background in automotive and defence tech. All the marine nav system suppliers are lagging best practice.

B&G doesn't document their updates, they don't publish integration tests, they are using an old version of Linux which is equipped with a mix of libraries and packages. This is typical for 20th century tech firms who consider everything they do to be proprietary. This leads to fragile systems with latent defects and unmanaged bugs. This implies that you don't want to be a beta customer.

In the next 10 years we should see both hardware and software commoditized and open sourced fully. This will lead to much better, more reliable, more performant, cheaper systems similar to what we've seen in cloud tech.