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Old 24-01-2011, 20:43   #16
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Thanks everyone. I guess it is hard to estimate the cost of installation.
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Old 24-01-2011, 20:45   #17
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Don't overlook the placement of the fluxgate unit ensuring it is as far away from electrical interference as possible. SSB's, tuners and VHF's are particularly good at screwing up what is otherwise a bullet proof system. This should be covered in the install instructions but it helps to scope out a good placement yourself before spending $ to have a marine mechanic noodle through where to place it... cheers, Capt Phil
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Old 24-01-2011, 20:53   #18
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For D-I-Y installations of the fluxgate/compass get a good hikers compass - the one that opens up and has lots of lines and stuff on the dial and usually a crosshair and sight notch.
- - With the boat in a fixed position, take a sighting down the length of the boat between bow and stern to find out a base reading for the boat. Then go inside and within the physical limits of the fluxgate/compass cabling, put the hikers compass in each position and see what the defection off your reference heading is. Some area will have large deflections due to metal objects close by and others will have little or no deflection. These are the preferred spots available to install the fluxgate/compass.
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Old 24-01-2011, 21:01   #19
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What a great idea, osirissail! Wish I had thought of that one. I've installed a couple of auto pilots and that trick would have made it easier. I recall reading in Practical Sailor years ago about electronic interference and was asked to trouble shoot a bad installation... found the problem in about 15 minutes and the owner thought I was a wizard! I did 'fess up to why I found the problem so quickly, though. CP
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Old 25-01-2011, 18:53   #20
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For instance, you'll want to wire a continuous duty solenoid from your break panel to the solenoid then run power directly from your batteries to the computer on this install. You'll also need to mount a fuse other than the one in your breaker panel inline with the power to the course computer. That's just one difference.
errr.... Why , its not a particulary high current draw, if you have a good high current feed to the panel then tee off it. Follow the recomendations in the Raymarine manual ( it doesnt require a dedicated battery feed). thousands of Beneteau installations cant be wrong. Also dont put in an inline fuse, the Corepack already has one, the circuit breaker will do just fine and is one less thing to find and replace in a panic.

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The upper level Raymarine systems use and network cable that's different than the sea talk you're used to on the wheel pilot. It uses and Sea Talk ng network that involves and back bone cable and drop into the back one from the computer and the controller. A remote control also plugs into the course computer via a network cable that is different from the network the computer and controller are on...
Not really,,, Corepacks can use either NMEA2K ( Seatalkng) or Seatalk(1) If you want a simple install then just use seatalk and forget about Seatalk NG, this does mean you cant use the ST70 control head, but theres the 6002 or 7002 to use instead.

Currently Ray dont have a NMEA2K compatible remote control ( ie wireless control) so thats an advantage of using seatalk(1) ie it can be wired in onto the seatalk loom, if you are using seatalkng , then youll need a seatalk(1) cable, but since nearly every seatalkng ( 2K) install tends to have some ordinary seatalk cabling anyway, this isnt an issue in most cases.

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For D-I-Y installations of the fluxgate/compass get a good hikers compass - the one that opens up and has lots of lines and stuff on the dial and usually a crosshair and sight notch.
- - With the boat in a fixed position, take a sighting down the length of the boat between bow and stern to find out a base reading for the boat. Then go inside and within the physical limits of the fluxgate/compass cabling, put the hikers compass in each position and see what the defection off your reference heading is. Some area will have large deflections due to metal objects close by and others will have little or no deflection. These are the preferred spots available to install the fluxgate/compass.
Theres no real need to do all this, the compass needs to be generally away from metallic items or heavy electric current, follow the install manual, Many are fitted in the bottom of a typical cupboard. It doesnt have to be madly accurately posiitoned, Rays calibration routine looks after all that and a offset can be programmed in to correct any mis-positioning. AGain its simple and all in the installation manual.

As to the Arm installation, Id suggest stick with the electro linear unit. Its needs a good mounting pad ( though Id countance against making it stronger then the tiller arm or quadrant, as you need a mechanical fuse if the drive ever locks up). Rudder arm reference ( though not strictly required with X-30) is realtively easy, its needs a simple pad installed to line up the arm with the quadrant. Its doesnt have to be too bombproof.

All this is straightforward and outlined in the installation manual. The main PITA is generally access and the ability to be double jointed and glass in things upside down.


Sorry should have mentioned the othre major issue is either connecting onto the quadrant or utilising a seperate tiller arm, which may require a keyway to be machined in the rudder stock , hence rudder removal. The quadrant may have a fixture that accepts a autopilot drive arm or it may not, There are arguments for and against driving the quadrant or a tiller arm. Many french production boats use the quadrant others fit a tiller arm.

Dave
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Old 25-01-2011, 20:51   #21
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Has anyone here installed a pancake drive, like the Simrad DD15? Supposed to use less power then a linear drive, but have good mechanical power/force.

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Old 26-01-2011, 05:42   #22
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Has anyone here installed a pancake drive, like the Simrad DD15? Supposed to use less power then a linear drive, but have good mechanical power/force.
Chris
Looks like a great drive unit - Simrad is quite reliable in my experience (I have their system - hydraulic). But it is for 40ft or less boats under 10 ton displacement. Additionally factors to be considered in any choice of drive units include such things as the "tenderness" of the boat and whether it can be "lightly steered" or needs a "heavy hand" to make it turn. Additionally, the placement and amount of "throw" needed to move the rudder from stop to stop. "Throw" (linear travel of the drive unit) is a major factor in considering the power of the drive unit that is needed when considering tiller arm type or hydraulic piston type drive units.
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Old 26-01-2011, 06:32   #23
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Of course I was asking for a possible installation on our boat, a Wauquiez Pretorien. It weighs 13,000lbs on paper, perhaps 15k in cruising form. Fin keel with a thin skeg. The quadrant is behind the rudder stock, so I am thinking that this drive would work out nicely. I am not sure about the throw, that is something I would have to look in on. The lower power consumption of the unit sure is attractive. I woujld love to talk with somebody who has installed one of these.

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Looks like a great drive unit - Simrad is quite reliable in my experience (I have their system - hydraulic). But it is for 40ft or less boats under 10 ton displacement. Additionally factors to be considered in any choice of drive units include such things as the "tenderness" of the boat and whether it can be "lightly steered" or needs a "heavy hand" to make it turn. Additionally, the placement and amount of "throw" needed to move the rudder from stop to stop. "Throw" (linear travel of the drive unit) is a major factor in considering the power of the drive unit that is needed when considering tiller arm type or hydraulic piston type drive units.
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Old 26-01-2011, 19:57   #24
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"Throw" or the linear travel of the drive unit includes an additional consideration. You want to calculate the travel necessary to move your rudder from "stop" to "stop." And then calculate where (from the center post outwards to the rim of the quadrant) on the quadrant or on an attachment bar to the quadrant, if the quadrant is not large enough, to attachment the drive unit. Be sure to do the calculation so that the maximum "throw" of the drive unit does not exceed the rotation necessary to hit the rudder stops. You don't want the drive unit trying to turn the rudder past the rudder stops.
- - Normally a flat stainless bar can be drilled and clamped to a spoke of the quadrant in two places to achieve the necessary measurements. It is good to not be drilling holes in the actual quadrant which is normally a casting and might fracture or fail where any new holes are drilled. Stainless cable clamps work well.
- - Some quadrants are complete circles, but normally they are only about a quarter of a circle with the rudder post at the apex and the steering cables at the rim.
- - As stated by others the drive unit can be bolted to a secure pad or existing frame member of the boat. Just like the little rod in the DD15 picture connects the rudder position sensor to the drive quadrant, another bar or rod can connect the drive to the ship's quadrant or quadrant extension bar. Just try to keep the alignment of the rod/bar in the "plane" of the quadrant so you are not pressing the quadrant down or up but flat with the plane of the quadrant. Measure, cut, adjust and test it all before bolting down the drive unit.
- - Besides all that you can also purchase a tiller arm separately and mount it on the rudder stock - if there is room - and attach the drive unit to it and not mess with the original quadrant at all.
- - I am hesitant to attach autopilot drive units to the cables of a cable steered boat and prefer to attach the drive unit to the rudder stock so that in case of a steering cable failure you can still steer the boat using the autopilot.
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Old 26-01-2011, 20:13   #25
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I have lost count of the number of Raymarine autopilots I have installed. Every installation is different and every one took a different amount of time. I have spent a good 40 hours on some installations and even more occasionally. I have done an installation in 16 hours. A C&C 40 can take 40 hours on one and 20 hours on another C&C 40. Two issue come into play. Do you have good recommendations and a good comfort level with the installer and do you have enough trust in him to give you a fair estimate for the job, since he has actually been on the boat and has a good idea of what will be involved. If you can't answer yes to both, than you need to contact another installer and have them come to the boat rather than get estimates from a discussion board. But that is just my opinion. Chuck
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Old 26-01-2011, 20:46   #26
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Of course I was asking for a possible installation on our boat, a Wauquiez Pretorien. It weighs 13,000lbs on paper, perhaps 15k in cruising form. Fin keel with a thin skeg. The quadrant is behind the rudder stock, so I am thinking that this drive would work out nicely. I am not sure about the throw, that is something I would have to look in on. The lower power consumption of the unit sure is attractive. I woujld love to talk with somebody who has installed one of these.

Chris
I looked at those. The wait to get one in the US was months. They had to have it shipped from Europe. I wanted to do it but I couldn't find anyone with experience.
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Old 07-02-2011, 20:13   #27
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Chuck, I was just trying to get an IDEA of cost, not an estimate. I thought a forum might be a good place for that. I understand that all boats are different and autopilots are inherently difficult to install on sailboats. Thank god for members like goboatingnow. Thank You
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Old 08-02-2011, 19:21   #28
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Be sure to do the calculation so that the maximum "throw" of the drive unit does not exceed the rotation necessary to hit the rudder stops. You don't want the drive unit trying to turn the rudder past the rudder stops
this is contrary to a number of autopilot install recommendations. The opposite is the case the rudder should hit the end stops before the arm runs out of stroke. This ensures that the rudder can go from stop to stop without damaging the autopilot arm.


Dave
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Old 08-02-2011, 19:25   #29
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this is country to a number of autopilot install recommendations. The opposite is the case the rudder should hit the end stops before the arm runs out of stroke. This ensures that the rudder can go from stop to stop without damaging the autopilot arm.


Dave
--thats what I was thinking. This is usually confirmed when you do the hard-over to hard-over part of your set-up parameters.
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Old 08-02-2011, 20:29   #30
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Thanks, The way it was explained to me by the Raymarine Tech was make the physical rudder stops just inside the throw of the drive arm and then set the parameters in the computer to have the drive arm stop just before it reaches the physical stops. This way the drive ram is not the physical stop and the drive will know to stop before it breaks something. I think.
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