Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-01-2015, 10:32   #16
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I wasn't suggesting mixing control heads. I was just correcting the information that stated the AP and CP had to be of the same vendor. This is only necessary if one wants to control the AP from the CP instead of from the control head. The control head and computer need to be of the same basic vendor (all Navico products - B&G, Simrad, Lowrance - are interchangeable), but all other parts can be mixed and matched without problem because their outputs are standardized protocols.



Things may have changed, but up to very recently, RM used a proprietary extension for their AP control. People were having fits trying to control and communicate with them through PC charting programs. However, I don't follow this much.



One thing very much against Raymarine is their doggedly stupid adherence to using proprietary connectors. They are alone in this, I believe.



Mark

One of the problems is that NMEA should have insisted on standard network connectors , they didn't and there are several incompatible types now in the marine space.

It has been possible to connect Raymarine and before the Autohelm , APs to other devices since forever. There is additional proprietary commands , but this is true of other makes as well

You can interconnect Ray in exactly the same way as simrad, with exactly the same level of functionality ( mainly limited to waypoints transfers and route setting etc ) . The proprietary extensions to RAy are the same as other manufacturers.

Personally for a leisure , there is little real difference between the major players. I find raymarines support very good in Europe as I can talk to the factory , I find Garmin good too, very reliable ( mind you my radar has just acted up )

Futuna is very rare on < 50 foot leisure yachts , of all the boats I've sailed only two had furuno. ( one failed ! ) , good support, especially from the country agents, who make a living from servicing commercial vessels

I don't think the OP will go wrong with choosing any one of them

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 10:47   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,428
Re: autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
.... The control head and computer need to be of the same basic vendor (all Navico products - B&G, Simrad, Lowrance - are interchangeable), but all other parts can be mixed and matched without problem because their outputs are standardized protocols.
So, the Simrad AC42 can be controlled by the B&G H5000??? Calibration and all?
__________________

__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 11:27   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
So, the Simrad AC42 can be controlled by the B&G H5000??? Calibration and all?
We control ours through a B&G Triton. The B&G Zeus will also control the Simrad AC42.

The H5000 is brand new, so I don't know anything about the AP controller specifically.

Calibration is part of the CPU, not the controller, so as long as the controller can tell the CPU to calibrate, then there won't be an issue.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 11:34   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,428
Re: autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
We control ours through a B&G Triton. The B&G Zeus will also control the Simrad AC42.

The H5000 is brand new, so I don't know anything about the AP controller specifically.

Calibration is part of the CPU, not the controller, so as long as the controller can tell the CPU to calibrate, then there won't be an issue.

Mark
So the Triton has pilot control or you use the add-on push button thingy???

It's not clear on their website. The boat show">Miami Boat Show is approaching and I'll be looking/comparing/dreaming....
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	triton-pilot1.jpg
Views:	121
Size:	10.7 KB
ID:	95929  
__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 11:46   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: autopilot

No, the T41 display does not have complete control - you need the pad in your picture for that.

The T41 display can calibrate and setup the AP without the pad. The pad is used for Auto/Stdby and dodge buttons.

The pad can operate the AP by itself without a display.

Once the AP is engaged, the T41 display shows all of the usual AP data and graphics stuff on it.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 13:19   #21
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 4,583
Re: autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Furuno is lunatic money for an AP that's not neither mainstream or optimised for sailing IMHO.

Looking around my marina , I know raymarine is very common Simrad less so, and a few Garmin , personally I have found raymarine to be a reasonable and robust AP. I like Simrad as they have lots of linear arm options.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
A Furuno AP runs about us$2,500 in the US. I use one to control my L&S hydraulic drive. An AP for an offshore cruising boat should be commercial quality if you don't have a windvane backup IMHO. Ray makes a decent recreational quality unit.
__________________
Paul L
http://svjeorgia.blogspot.com
Paul L is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 14:12   #22
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
A Furuno AP runs about us$2,500 in the US. I use one to control my L&S hydraulic drive. An AP for an offshore cruising boat should be commercial quality if you don't have a windvane backup IMHO. Ray makes a decent recreational quality unit.

I think the majority of issues are around the drive units in APs. The linear drive unit in the lower end Ray systems are often used in situations adhere they are close to the operating envelope. You can see this sometimes in the wear on these units.

Moving to hydraulic pump & ram , turns APs like Raymarine up a notch. In practice if you look at the electronics , there is very little difference in Furunos leisure range and say Raymarine. Merely cause loads of workboats have them, is more a function of the strategic decisions furuno took to build relationships with local agents and service companies, because commercial users have different needs and will pay for that service.

In reality, all these systems have electronics built to a price.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 14:33   #23
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
An AP for an offshore cruising boat should be commercial quality if you don't have a windvane backup IMHO.
I doubt there is anything "commercial quality" about a Furuno AP CPU and head unit. The drive unit is typically the deciding factor on ruggedness and reliability.

Most sailboats would benefit more by taking the money Furuno charges for their AP CPU system and putting it in B&G or NKE instead. Those CPU's truly do have specific sailboat performance advantages. You won't see any Furuno AP's on racing boats.

I do agree that Raymarine is pretty much the bottom of the barrel for AP's. Just dealing with their stupid connectors and interfacing is bad enough.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 15:07   #24
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I doubt there is anything "commercial quality" about a Furuno AP CPU and head unit. The drive unit is typically the deciding factor on ruggedness and reliability.



Most sailboats would benefit more by taking the money Furuno charges for their AP CPU system and putting it in B&G or NKE instead. Those CPU's truly do have specific sailboat performance advantages. You won't see any Furuno AP's on racing boats.


We both agree , about the drive being the key.. NKE and b&G all produce very high end systems for these race boats. Really there's little in common with what we use
Quote:

I do agree that Raymarine is pretty much the bottom of the barrel for AP's. Just dealing with their stupid connectors and interfacing is bad enough.



Mark

I'm no fan of any of the major leisure electronics. I can professionally see where the corners have been cut.

But I don't think Raymarine units are any better or worse overall. I've crossed oceans with them and they worked flawlessly.

As for the connectors , thats a common issue across many marine systems. As for interfacing they have been using 0183 for years , in fact their APs were always the easiest to interface in my experience to other chart plotters.

One only has to read of the trials and tribulations of the Simrad networking to realise that all these systems have issues , especially as the overall complexity rises. These days nearly all the failure modes are software related

Dave



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 15:18   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
One only has to read of the trials and tribulations of the Simrad networking to realise that all these systems have issues
Simrad moved over to all standard micro-c connectors a while ago. Robnet is long gone and they have been N2K since. I don't know of anyone except Raymarine who is not using micro-c connectors.

While B&G and NKE provide custom AP software for specific race boats, their more common AP's also contain much of the steering and adaptation algorithms developed from their racing experiences.

Control and steering software is a major distinction among the AP vendors. Our Simrad AP can steer so as to optimize VMG, for example. It can also steer a compass course while adjusting for drift and set.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 15:24   #26
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
autopilot

My experience is all the major APs have enough functions for the average sailor and cruiser


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 15:34   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,428
Re: autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Simrad moved over to all standard micro-c connectors a while ago. Robnet is long gone and they have been N2K since. I don't know of anyone except Raymarine who is not using micro-c connectors.
So Simnet is gone??? All the installation manuals still show the Simnet connectors and t-joiners.

Hmm, something else to look for at Miami...
__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 15:40   #28
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Neptune's Gear's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
Boat: Farr Phase 4, 12.8m
Posts: 992
Re: autopilot

Ok, first I'll admit my bias. I've done over 40,000 miles with Simrad gear, and now that I'm home I've become a dealer for B&G. I would not have, if I did not like it.

Yes, Simnet is gone, all now micro C .

The B&G trident stuff (AP Computer, Compass, Rudder sensor) is the Simrad stuff that has been around for a bit, just re-badged and with a new controller and updated software. Still good though.
However, if you are considering this, for some reason the manuals for the drive units (esp the RPU hydraulic pumps) only give you the likely working currents - not the MAX. The AC12 can quite easily be overpowered in rough conditions or strong winds by some of the drive units, and the AP will switch off. I'd suggest the high current AP Computer (AC42) for most offshore boats, so you can avoid this. Other than that, they are great pilots, but make sure your actuator is up to the task - I prefer hydraulic.

In fact, on my own boat, (40ft Mono, fin keeler) I designed my own ram and had it made to fit the space available. Hydraulic units are the most reliable in my experience - that is why they are used in heavy industry. Make sure the electric pump for it is mounted in a dry area, the right spec, and carry a spare set of bearings and brushes if you are off RTW!
I'm off to learn some more about the new h5000 stuff next week, so I hope to be able to give a comparison after that.
__________________
Matt Paulin
Neptunes Gear Ltd
www.neptunes-gear.com
Neptune's Gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 16:07   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Florida
Boat: FP Belize, 43' - Dot Dun
Posts: 3,428
Re: autopilot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post
Ok, first I'll admit my bias. I've done over 40,000 miles with Simrad gear, and now that I'm home I've become a dealer for B&G. I would not have, if I did not like it.

Yes, Simnet is gone, all now micro C .
Hmm, they should update the website...the AP24 still has Simnet connectors in the picture, installation manual, and the spec sheet.
__________________
DotDun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2015, 16:10   #30
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Neptune's Gear's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
Boat: Farr Phase 4, 12.8m
Posts: 992
Re: autopilot

Yes you can still get it like that, but no more stuff will have it...And Navico are promoting the B&G side for sailboats....
The AP24 is just a control head, I doubt they will re-engineer it for micro c. It is not used in the current B&G system.
The primary website is, as I understand it, going to get a major revamp.
__________________
Matt Paulin
Neptunes Gear Ltd
www.neptunes-gear.com
Neptune's Gear is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
autopilot

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
CPT autopilot plus Monitor windvane or just W-H autopilot? graydog Construction, Maintenance & Refit 9 03-05-2015 23:21
Autopilot salty Marine Electronics 3 25-03-2004 17:48
Autopilot irwinsailor Seamanship & Boat Handling 11 21-05-2003 03:05
Looking at B&G autopilot kd7lmq Marine Electronics 0 14-05-2003 17:03



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:32.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.