Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

[ramblinrod]

To the OP...

Congratulations for having the good common sense to have the boat properly surveyed.

I can’t tell you how many times I hear, “but that cost a lot of money and the boat isn’t worth it.”

Seriously?

Koodo’s.

You have taken the correct first step to owning a safe and seaworthy boat.

What you do next is your call.

Contrary to what some may believe, I have no problem with a boater performing DIY work. In fact, I help lots of them. I just recommend that if they aren’t willing to invest the time, money, and effort on learning (not just reading) the standards, and developing the required skills to properly perform the work, they hire a “certified”pro.

And if you do perform DIY work, have it inspected by a properly certified surveyor or technician, to verify it is correct and meets standards.

Even if you managed to install and perhaps rework the installation one or more times to get it to appear to work, doesn’t mean it is as safe and reliable as it should be.

FWIW, the poorest DIY installations I see are bilge pumps and VHF radios, items that demand reliable performance on any boat.

These same owners post on internet forums that to have it done right, one must do it themselves.

Yeah right.

[chowdan]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I just recommend that if they aren’t willing to invest the time, money, and effort on learning (not just reading) the standards, and developing the required skills to properly perform the work, they hire a “certified”pro.

And if you do perform DIY work, have it inspected by a properly certified surveyor or technician, to verify it is correct and meets standards.

I think this is incredibly important. When I do my own work, it often results in doing it 3-5x before I feel it is right.

I also firmly believe in after completing the work, bringing someone out who is reputable and properly certified to inspect it. I've done this with major structural fiberglass work and will be doing the same thing with my electrical system when completed.

I dont have hard numbers, but I would guess my costs probably are the same(excluding labor) due to the fact thay I do it multiple times to get it right. But in the end I have it done right and I know how the system works and how to fix problems in the future(I believe skills will be needed for cruising far and wide in the future).

But as other said, DIY people who properly do it are few and far between due to the fact that most owners just want to "get it done". Ones who are of that mind set are ones who have garbage systems or work IMO.

I

[sdj]

This is degreed electrical engineer territory.

[ttex]

Originally Posted by sdj

This is degreed electrical engineer territory.

I wouldn't let an electrical engineer wire my boat if you paid me.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by ttex

I wouldn't let an electrical engineer wire my boat if you paid me.

Neither would my good friend and dock neighbour who retired last year as president of IEEE

[sdj]

Originally Posted by ttex

I wouldn't let an electrical engineer wire my boat if you paid me.

Go and do that then. Why baselessly and publicly rubbish someone elses opinion? This just makes you look like an abuser.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

No he didn’t.

You misquoted and missed a very important detail. He stated a “supposedly” qualified marine electrician.

A “truly” qualified marine electrician would not make these rookie/amateur mistakes.

How does one separate “supposedly” from “properly” qualified contractors?

Step 1. Ask to see their cert.
Step 2. Check the certifying body list of certified technicians to verify the cert is valid.

That simple. Takes about a minute. Could save your boat and life. Cheapest insurance you’ll ever get.

If you fail to follow these two simple steps, whose fault is it if you receive substandard work?

As a boat owner, naïveté, ignorance, laziness, or frugality, is no excuse for hiring some bum looking to scrounge money to pay for their next bottle or fix.

You owe it to your boat, yourself, your loved ones, and others in the boating community, to ensure your boat is safe.

Ramblinrod, As sure as I am that a qualified, certified, electrical engineer knows a lot more than I do, I think with common sense and some intelligence an owner might do his own boat electrical system wiring without jeopardizing the safety of his family and boat...or he might not, so a pro would be a safer bet, I agree. Nevertheless, I am very sure about the safety and operability of my wiring system which I have done completely by myself, without any training, and no "pro" is going to tell me it's wrong without some justification. I don't trust them that much (see below).

However, I do sort of object to your characterization of anyone who does wiring without the certs you so admire, as being a "bum looking to scrounge money to pay for their next bottle or fix". That is unfair to a lot of knowledgeable, hard working guys who have to make a living on things other than just electrical wiring, and anyhow what should an owner do if the only people you find acceptable are not available for months? Just wait? That seems like arrogance, and a no-win for the boat owner (anybody who you can get to work is no good, and anybody who is good won't work for you)

Next, I don't care how much education or certification a guy has, some of their standards, such as those related to "bonding" and "grounding" and "AC/DC", as well as battery wiring and isolators, are still in dispute. I'll make my own decision on the wiring if they persist in an approach which I disagree with. They are not Gods.

Finally, some of them are not even that smart. A certified electrical engineer (approved by the marina and municipality) came to inspect my boat while I was at work and, not understanding the automatic nature of my inverter, was shocked by outlet wiring that was energized after he had already shut off the shore power at my panel. So he took it upon himself to CUT my shore power leads with his wire cutters. I will never forgive the profession for that.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Next, I don't care how much education or certification a guy has, some of their standards, such as those related to "bonding" and "grounding" and "AC/DC", as well as battery wiring and isolators, are still in dispute.

Sorry but this is inaccurate. None of these areas are in dispute by those trained in these matters, it's settled science. The only disputes come from "dock talker experts".

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Sorry but this is inaccurate. None of these areas are in dispute by those trained in these matters, it's settled science. The only disputes come from "dock talker experts".

Sorry yourself boatpoker, I've had contradictory opinions from "Pros" on some of these exact topics, and of course they each are adamant that it is settled science. I'm not going to ask each of them to show me their certification cards.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I'm not going to ask each of them to show me their certification cards.

Then you can;t know that they are educated in the matter.

Rod and I deal with this stuff on a daily basis and may have become a little jaded by the self proclaimed experts and dock talkers.

Take a look at some of the stuff I see literally every day.

Stoopid Boat Owners tricks

[donradcliffe]

Rod and the Poker need to get out more. The 'settled science' from the ABYC is not accepted in the rest of the world, and one of the big areas of contention is connecting AC and DC grounds.

[sdj]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I've had contradictory opinions from "Pros" on some of these exact topics

"Pros" aren't degreed marine or electrical engineers.

Forums are places for keyboard warriors to shoot their rampant mouths off belittling all and sundry, because that's their life, that's what they've always done.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Rod and the Poker need to get out more. The 'settled science' from the ABYC is not accepted in the rest of the world, and one of the big areas of contention is connecting AC and DC grounds.

it's curious that my buddy, dock neighbour, retired president of IEEE and consultant to the USN (Blake Lloyd). is wrong. I guess the retired US nuc sub commander who was VP of Ontario Hydro (Brian Debs) is wrong. I guess retired US nuc sub commander and consultant to BoatUS on ESD and the USCG on corrosion (Dave Rifkin) is wrong. I guess the discoverer of ESD (Kevin Ritz) is also wrong. These friends and instructors of mine think it's settled science but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

[sdj]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

....These friends and instructors of mine think it's settled science but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

There are actually people in the world who DO know their sh1t, but they will be ridiculed or ignored on public forums because correct information is not the point - their inflated egos are the point. It's easy to spot these people, but do you think they know how to shut their mouth?

[Boater Brad]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Next, I don't care how much education or certification a guy has, some of their standards, such as those related to "bonding" and "grounding" and "AC/DC", as well as battery wiring and isolators, are still in dispute.

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Sorry but this is inaccurate. None of these areas are in dispute by those trained in these matters, it's settled science. The only disputes come from "dock talker experts".

Professional or DIY is not the point. I don't know what is "settled science", but on a practical matter, if your bonding, grounding, and neutrals aren't right, you'll pop the GFI breakers in newer marinas (not to mention the safety implications of a miss-wired boat if your marina lacks GFI's). We just rebuilt our marina to the 2014 NEC Article 555 standard. I have two 120V 30A GFI's (with a 30 mA trip current) at my pedestal. My boat--which runs dual 120V/30A shore power popped the GFI's right away. Having an engineering background and knowing my boat wiring inside and out, I was confident I could troubleshoot it easily. Not so.

I first checked all my bonding and grounding connections. Made sure the genny and inverter neutral bonds were lifting when shore power was connected. This led me to examine the automatic transfer switch. I realized that it was using 3 pole contactors with the two shore power neutrals connected together on the contactor terminal. That's a no no, so I replaced the ATS contactor with a dual 4 pole contactor to isolate the neutrals. I made sure I purchased contactors that had both a mechanical and electrical lockout to prevent any possibility of more than one power source ever being connected at the same time (basically a reversing contactor). Now the neutrals were isolated, grounds were correct, and bonding between neutral and ground only occurs at the power pedestal unless the genny or inverter is on--and the shorepower is disconnected--at which point the neutral automatically bonds to the internal power source ground. Since safety and ESD was my first concern, I confirmed with my Fluke that there was no leakage to the ground--i.e. water--before connecting the power. Everything checked out, but when I connected the cables, the GFI's still tripped. What?!

I checked and re-checked my work, called "experts" in marine and marina wiring, read white-papers, talked to EE's and electricians, and no one could figure it out and assumed I missed something. In the end they were right, but none correctly guessed the problem. The problem was the tiniest thing: The ATS has a small circuit board to control the contactor function and provide a timing circuit for the generator. This tiny parasitic circuit had its hot connected to shore power 1, but the neutral was connected to the neutral buss on shore power 2. Since a GFI works by comparing the current on the hot leg to the current on the neutral, the shore power 1 GFI saw a few milliamps going out that wasn't coming back on its neutral and figured the current was going to ground and flipped. Likewise, shore power 2 had no current going out but had a few miliamps coming back on its neutral, so it flipped as well. Note that there was no leakage to ground, so no real ESD risk, but the two GFI's just see a mismatch of current coming and going and both flip. Theoretically, if the 2 GFI's talked to each other, one would say "I'm losing current here and going to flip", but the other GFI would say "no worries dude, I got your current over here--no leakage to ground".

The moral of this story is that even though wiring is pretty basic at its core--including boat wiring with inverters, generators, and DC circuits--all the details, the miles of wire, and the numerous devices can confuse anyone trying to troubleshoot after it's all installed. This stuff is beyond the majority of DIYers, but it also stumped the pros and EE's as well. On one hand this was a win for the DIYer, but only because I have an unhealthy amount of stubbornness, persistence, and refusal to lose. I also invested 20-30 hours chasing this bugger. In the end, the best approach is to have a detailed wiring diagram showing every device. If there's not a problem on paper, then it's a matter of checking that every device is connected per the diagram. DIY or "professional" is irrelevant--it's the documentation and ability to analyze the actual vs the design--which requires an incredible amount of attention to detail, skill with a DVM, and an understanding of where those pesky electrons like to run.