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Old 09-10-2019, 09:38   #16
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

Madness and overly complicated the older boats like the westerly always came with the old style switch on 12 volts this allowed for movmnet between banks and is perfectly fine old fashioned these days but not a risk your 220 v systym just needs to wire into a standard house fuse box. Most modern one will satisfy all safety then run your sockets and inverter of the fuse box making sure the switches are rated for the amperage this is standard on most yatchs in the UK do not get sucked into World wide issues check to see if your boat already has a 220v breaker installed I bet it does
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:15   #17
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

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Originally Posted by rbk View Post
I would also recommend hiring a professional or at the very least for your own sake I would pick up some reading material and get familiar with your electrical systems, Nigel Calder's books are always good and Maine Sails website is a great resource https://marinehowto.com/

Please quote the message properly because that in-line red stuff isn't working for me. As far as how you start your engine, well, simple really - the battery is connected straight to the engine panel. Doesn't need to be connected to the 4-way switch, at all.



I have Nigel Calder's book already, that's what initially made me go "hmm" when I saw the boat's electrical system.



Now, generally speaking for a minute, I appreciate the advice, but I don't appreciate that the majority of replies assumes I'm an idiot; while I may not be an electrician, I have worked with plenty of electrical systems in my past to, for example, know that you use different wiring for AC and DC. So if we can please refrain from the whole "you dunno what you're doing go seek an expert" replies, that'd be real peachy.



After all if I find myself in the middle of the Atlantic with electrical issues, it's not like I can go get myself an expert electrician right there. I'd rather do up my own electrical, so I know how it's installed, I know what goes where, and I know how to troubleshoot and fix it if needed.
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:38   #18
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

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Originally Posted by benvanstaveren View Post
Please quote the message properly because that in-line red stuff isn't working for me.
I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:51   #19
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

Quote:
Originally Posted by benvanstaveren View Post
Please quote the message properly because that in-line red stuff isn't working for me. As far as how you start your engine, well, simple really - the battery is connected straight to the engine panel. Doesn't need to be connected to the 4-way switch, at all.



I have Nigel Calder's book already, that's what initially made me go "hmm" when I saw the boat's electrical system.



Now, generally speaking for a minute, I appreciate the advice, but I don't appreciate that the majority of replies assumes I'm an idiot; while I may not be an electrician, I have worked with plenty of electrical systems in my past to, for example, know that you use different wiring for AC and DC. So if we can please refrain from the whole "you dunno what you're doing go seek an expert" replies, that'd be real peachy.



After all if I find myself in the middle of the Atlantic with electrical issues, it's not like I can go get myself an expert electrician right there. I'd rather do up my own electrical, so I know how it's installed, I know what goes where, and I know how to troubleshoot and fix it if needed.
Nexr it will be an anchor dilema

simple terms seperate the house bank from starter batteries
house bank with a large fuse at the beggining on the feed from house batteries , the house cable then runs to the main panel were switches with fuses goes then wires run from the main panel to all 12v systems

starter battery connected to the engine starter no fuse needed but some put one in but must be large enough to cope with high load fora few seconds

fit a charging control unit between house and starter battery to allow for both battery banks to be charged
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=durite+...sl_2j0jj7kwv_e
follow the instructions as it is easy to fit , this will allow charging to happen from all charfing sources including wind and solar wich should be placed on the house bank

220 AC from the input source from shore power inot boat fit an RCD unit from local hardware store then feed all 220 ac from the RCD unit to 220v systems including water heater all sockets and battery charger .

household cable that electricans use for houses can be used for the RCD unit and all 220v cable to sockets

for 12volt DC use correct cable for loads used i.e heavy cable from engine battery to starter and heavy cable from house bank to control panel

fit a battery kill switch to allow current ot be switched of in an emergency so lead cable from house to kill switch to control panel somewere were you have access to it
Same with the battery for the engine.

Put you battery charger onto the house bank as the durite will control the charge for both banks

use busbars to housebank if you hasve to many wires connected to the house batteries as it is recomeneded no more than 3 wires to each battery

so one busbar can take solar , wind, and constant charge were needed and then one large cable to house .
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:52   #20
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

It would really help people help you if you drew a diagram of what you have in mind and post that on here. Asking people to visualize your vision is a bit much.
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Old 09-10-2019, 13:35   #21
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

Quote:
Originally Posted by benvanstaveren View Post
Please quote the message properly because that in-line red stuff isn't working for me. As far as how you start your engine, well, simple really - the battery is connected straight to the engine panel. Doesn't need to be connected to the 4-way switch, at all.
Sorry to confuse you but it can be difficult to do proper responses from a phone. If your start battery is indeed connected to your engine panel, your system is very 'eff'd up'; but it is true you could connect your start battery directly to your starter but you'd have no way to shut it down should there a) be a problem ie stuck starter or b)stray current/parasitic draw when left at dock or mooring. A way to disconnect the battery is a must. Also this leaves you little options for emergency combining/isolation etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by benvanstaveren View Post
I have Nigel Calder's book already, that's what initially made me go "hmm" when I saw the boat's electrical system.



Now, generally speaking for a minute, I appreciate the advice, but I don't appreciate that the majority of replies assumes I'm an idiot; while I may not be an electrician, I have worked with plenty of electrical systems in my past to, for example, know that you use different wiring for AC and DC. So if we can please refrain from the whole "you dunno what you're doing go seek an expert" replies, that'd be real peachy.



After all if I find myself in the middle of the Atlantic with electrical issues, it's not like I can go get myself an expert electrician right there. I'd rather do up my own electrical, so I know how it's installed, I know what goes where, and I know how to troubleshoot and fix it if needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benvanstaveren View Post
...currently sitting well over 200 miles away from where I am so I can't quite make a diagram just yet, I'm going off memory.
Generally speaking it is your questions that are resulting in the responses. So which is it? 200 miles away or the middle of the Atlantic?
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Old 09-10-2019, 15:36   #22
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

Just as a FYI - Blue Seas makes panels that contain a "DC Main" switch:

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/blue-...43?recordNum=9
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Old 09-10-2019, 21:17   #23
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

Quote:
Originally Posted by chowdan View Post
I may be a bit of an outlier here and point out this specific comment.

@ozsailer, you state that your friends motor vessel was rewired by a "qualified marine electrician", yet you proceed to go on to advocate for a professional to do this gentlemans/gentlewomans rewiring.




This is exactly what I have mental battles with. I personally believe that an individual with the right tools CAN do just as a good job as a professional, it may take them longer, it may cost the same, yet they will understand everything they've done and for future reference when they do hire a professional, they will be able to call out the professionals ******** work.

I have seen one to many people burned because they were incompetent themselves and left it to the expensive "professional" do the work and in turn that professional f'd them over - just like your friend.

I fully believe that I can do just as good of a job or better as a professional IF I spend the time to learn it before stepping into the project
Not in my life experience.

The number of boaters who believe they can do the job of a qualified marine electrician is much greater than those who really can. By far.

Talk to any competent surveyor and they will tell you that the electrical system on most DIY boats is a mess, a fire waiting to happen, yet the owner believes it is fine, because after all, and the vessel hasn’t burned to he waterline.

Well, tomorrow is another day.

I’ve heard so much BS about the “pro” who failed I could just puke. 9 times out 10 it was no pro at all. Just some boat bum who agreed do something way over their head, or beyond their skill set, for money.

If a pro works on your electrical system you will know it. They will review your survey citations (or perform an electrical system inspection themselves) and advise the deficiencies, how dangerous they are and under what circumstances, and how they can be best repaired/modified.

After performing the installations / remediation, all of the wires will be labelled and you will be supplied with a corresponding wiring diagram.

If done by a pro, you (if you actually do know anything about marine electrical systems and standards) or any true pro, will be able to easily understand the electrical system and make any future changes to it.

If done by a pro, there should be little if any troubleshooting required because it will be done right the first time, in a way that is reliable.

I am a pro. This is my living. It really pisses me off when schmoes give the trade a bad name.

How can you tell a pro from a schmo?

This is there sole income, livelihood, and craft. They have ten boatloads of experience. They carrry their ticket in their wallet and will be happy to show it to you, along with their commercial liability cert. that will protect you in the 1 in 1 million chance they make a mistake. Carrying the cert means they have never had a claim, as only 1 claim puts the premium so high they couldn’t afford to carry a cert anymore.

Best advise, when attempting to hire a pro, ask to see their ticket and insurance cert. If you get excuses instead of instant results, they are a schmo, not a pro.

Any pro is happy to show their certs, because it took a lot of time, money, and effort to get them, and these separate them from the average schmo who will gladly take your money for substandard work.

And by the way, pros don’t work for beer or cash under the table, and aren’t sitting idly by the phone waiting for you to call. They will be booked solid for weeks or months, despite charging the industry rate in their market.

If you find someone cheap and available immediately, beware. Ask to see their certs.

And just cause one worker in a yard may have a cert, doesn't mean they all do. Ask to see the cert of the person actually performing the work. If an underling is going to do the work, speak to the cert. holder about their inspection and sign off procedure, and get the inspection record.
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Old 09-10-2019, 21:38   #24
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Not in my life experience.

The number of boaters who believe they can do the job of a qualified marine electrician is much greater than those who really can. By far.

Talk to any competent surveyor and they will tell you that the electrical system on most DIY boats is a mess, a fire waiting to happen, yet the owner believes it in fine, because after all, and the vessel hasn’t burned to he waterline.

Well, tomorrow is another day.

I’ve heard so much BS about the “pro” who failed ai could just puke. 9 times out 10 it was no pro at all. Just some boat bum who agreed do something way over their head, or beyond their skill set, for money.

If a pro works on your electrical system you will know it. They will review your survey citations (or perform an electrical system inspection themselves) and advise the deficiencies, how dangerous they are and under what circumstances, and how they can be best repaired/modified.

After performing the installations / remediation, all of the wires will be labelled and you will be supplied with a corresponding wiring diagram.

If done by a pro, you (if you actually do know anything about marine electrical systems and standards) or any true pro, will be able to easily understand the electrical system and make any future changes to it.

If done by a pro, there should be little if any troubleshooting required because it will be done right the first time, in a way that is reliable.

I am a pro. This is my living. It really pisses me off when schmoes give the trade a bad name.

How can you tell a pro from a schmo?

This is there sole income, livelihood, and craft. They have ten boatloads of experience. They carrry their ticket in their wallet and will be happy to show it to you, along with their commercial liability cert. that will protect you in the 1 in 1 million chance they make a mistake. Carrying the cert means they have never had a claim, as only 1 claim puts the premium so high they couldn’t afford to carry a cert anymore.

Best advise, when attempting to hire a pro, ask to see their ticket and insurance cert. If you get excuses instead of instant results, they are a schmo, not a pro.

Any pro is happy to show their certs, because it took a lot of time, money, and effort to get them, and these separate them from the average schmo who will gladly take your money for substandard work.

And by the way, pros don’t work for beer or cash under the table, and aren’t sitting idly by the phone waiting for you to call. They will be booked solid for weeks or months, despite charging the industry rate in their market.

If you find someone cheap and available immediately, beware. Ask bro see their certs.

And just cause one worker in a yard may have a cert, doesn't mean they all do. Ask to see the cert of the person actually performing the work. If an underling is going to do the work, speak to the cert. holder about their inspection and sign off procedure, and get the inspection record.
Completely Agree.
80% of the recommendations in my surveys are electrical. Many on vessels by self proclaimed experts including a number of land based electricians who know nothing at all about galvanic current, stray current, Neutral/ground bonding, AC ground/DC negative bonding, Galvanic Isolators or that battery conductors should be fuse protected. Of the couple of dozen "marine" electricians I know well there are three (all ABYC Certified) I would hire myself.
Of the 250 surveyors in Ontario there are five I would hire myself.

None of the Mechanics, Electricians or Surveyors that I respect are going to be be available for weeks/months after you call them.
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Old 09-10-2019, 22:08   #25
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

I have to laugh at the "Pro's" piling on. One of the last boats I delivered was a new Jeanneau with a 'professionally" installed inverter. The wiring allowed the inverter to run the battery charger, thereby creating a perpetual motion machine which ended badly. When I pointed it out to the owner, he said the "Pro" was too busy to fix it. I'm sure that you would be better off with an amateur with some common sense.
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Old 09-10-2019, 22:52   #26
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

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Originally Posted by benvanstaveren View Post

the DC side of things combines house/starter in a way that makes me wonder what the use is, and the DC panel having one of it's switches wired as a 'master' switch is, well, in my opinion five kinds of silly since the 4-way switch (in 'off') should be the master for all DC electrical on board.
pretty much every boat can combine the engine and house batteries. that is how you start the engine if the engine battery is dead. that is normal.

that is also how most boats charge the house battery while the engine is running. by manually combining them to the engine battery which is getting charged from the engine alt. now there are better devices to do this. but for many years that was the only way.

sounds like what you have now is a house only swtich. with both batteries feeding it. more common in factory wired boats is to have the engine and dc panel come off the same switch. and now people seperate those outputs to 2 swtiches. someone likly moved the engine to the start battery and bypassed the swtich. it likly did not come like that from factory.

so you need to add an on / off engine switch as well between the engine battery and engine. this is code and for safty. and you can leave the 1/2/all as is for the house. if just needs to be labeled so its' left on the house battery normally. if the house battery ever dies or fails. you can turn it to the start battery for emergency use of your VHF radio and nav lights from engine battery.

and yes the DC panel should have a master breaker. because often there are loads coming off the house swtich that do not go the the DC panel. like a windlass or inverter. so the panel master turns off only the panel. but the battery swtich turns off the whole battery.

go look at any good DC panel.
https://www.bluesea.com/products/837...s_White_Toggle
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Old 10-10-2019, 01:00   #27
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

Chowdan, absolutley nothing to be worried about with my comment. The alledged expert electrician was very young and not highly experienced with boats. He indicated he was. Worst offence was that my friend accepted the creds of this person as fact without doing any checking. Also good luck with reading up on all your installations. Only took me a 4 year apprenticeship, two extra years getting my electronics certificates and then another 30 years of building on this basic building step.
The sad thing is even after so many years of working in this game I still dont know everything and still research and maintain my knowledge to keep it current, keep my mind opent to new and modern techniques and importantly keep on top of changes to rules and regulations pertaining to electrical installastions. The amount of cruisers I know who dont even carry a basic mutlimeter on board their boat astounds me or those that build solar charging systems on their boat and do not even know how much power their boat draws on average over a 24 hour period to determine what is most suitable for their individual needs.
Yest there are some very smart cruising individuals out there and indeed you may be one of them but unfortunatley it has been my case that they are few and far between.


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Old 10-10-2019, 06:14   #28
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Not in my life experience.

The number of boaters who believe they can do the job of a qualified marine electrician is much greater than those who really can. By far.

Talk to any competent surveyor and they will tell you that the electrical system on most DIY boats is a mess, a fire waiting to happen, yet the owner believes it is fine, because after all, and the vessel hasn’t burned to he waterline.

Well, tomorrow is another day.

I’ve heard so much BS about the “pro” who failed I could just puke. 9 times out 10 it was no pro at all. Just some boat bum who agreed do something way over their head, or beyond their skill set, for money.

If a pro works on your electrical system you will know it. They will review your survey citations (or perform an electrical system inspection themselves) and advise the deficiencies, how dangerous they are and under what circumstances, and how they can be best repaired/modified.

After performing the installations / remediation, all of the wires will be labelled and you will be supplied with a corresponding wiring diagram.

If done by a pro, you (if you actually do know anything about marine electrical systems and standards) or any true pro, will be able to easily understand the electrical system and make any future changes to it.

If done by a pro, there should be little if any troubleshooting required because it will be done right the first time, in a way that is reliable.

I am a pro. This is my living. It really pisses me off when schmoes give the trade a bad name.

How can you tell a pro from a schmo?

This is there sole income, livelihood, and craft. They have ten boatloads of experience. They carrry their ticket in their wallet and will be happy to show it to you, along with their commercial liability cert. that will protect you in the 1 in 1 million chance they make a mistake. Carrying the cert means they have never had a claim, as only 1 claim puts the premium so high they couldn’t afford to carry a cert anymore.

Best advise, when attempting to hire a pro, ask to see their ticket and insurance cert. If you get excuses instead of instant results, they are a schmo, not a pro.

Any pro is happy to show their certs, because it took a lot of time, money, and effort to get them, and these separate them from the average schmo who will gladly take your money for substandard work.

And by the way, pros don’t work for beer or cash under the table, and aren’t sitting idly by the phone waiting for you to call. They will be booked solid for weeks or months, despite charging the industry rate in their market.

If you find someone cheap and available immediately, beware. Ask to see their certs.

And just cause one worker in a yard may have a cert, doesn't mean they all do. Ask to see the cert of the person actually performing the work. If an underling is going to do the work, speak to the cert. holder about their inspection and sign off procedure, and get the inspection record.
Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
I have to laugh at the "Pro's" piling on. One of the last boats I delivered was a new Jeanneau with a 'professionally" installed inverter. The wiring allowed the inverter to run the battery charger, thereby creating a perpetual motion machine which ended badly. When I pointed it out to the owner, he said the "Pro" was too busy to fix it. I'm sure that you would be better off with an amateur with some common sense.
There is no marine electrical standard that requires the loads an owner does not wish to be powered by an inverter to be isolated from the main distribution panel.

In such a case, it is up to the user to heed the label the pro installer placed at the main AC shore power breaker that circuits may still be powered by an inverter.

Notwithstanding, any pro I know would prefer the owner authorize (and of course pay for) the mods to make the system idiot proof. Few will or do.

So who’s fault was it that the charger was powered by the inverter?
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:45   #29
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarian View Post
Nexr it will be an anchor dilema

simple terms seperate the house bank from starter batteries
house bank with a large fuse at the beggining on the feed from house batteries , the house cable then runs to the main panel were switches with fuses goes then wires run from the main panel to all 12v systems

starter battery connected to the engine starter no fuse needed but some put one in but must be large enough to cope with high load fora few seconds

fit a charging control unit between house and starter battery to allow for both battery banks to be charged
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=durite+...sl_2j0jj7kwv_e
follow the instructions as it is easy to fit , this will allow charging to happen from all charfing sources including wind and solar wich should be placed on the house bank

220 AC from the input source from shore power inot boat fit an RCD unit from local hardware store then feed all 220 ac from the RCD unit to 220v systems including water heater all sockets and battery charger .

household cable that electricans use for houses can be used for the RCD unit and all 220v cable to sockets

for 12volt DC use correct cable for loads used i.e heavy cable from engine battery to starter and heavy cable from house bank to control panel

fit a battery kill switch to allow current ot be switched of in an emergency so lead cable from house to kill switch to control panel somewere were you have access to it
Same with the battery for the engine.

Put you battery charger onto the house bank as the durite will control the charge for both banks

use busbars to housebank if you hasve to many wires connected to the house batteries as it is recomeneded no more than 3 wires to each battery

so one busbar can take solar , wind, and constant charge were needed and then one large cable to house .
Per ABYC (perhaps other standards too) if the starter battery can be combined with the house battery (ie the starter battery can feed the DC distribution panel), the starter battery MUST be fused (and there are very specific standards for where this fuse must be.)

IMHO, any advice how to wire a boat other than, “Hire a pro, or become one”, could very well be setting the OP up for disaster.

Reading a book, polling a forum, or watching YouTube is not sufficient. I have inspected countless DIY wired boats (sometimes investigating the cause of the electrical fire) that prove this time and again.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:29   #30
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Re: Attempt at un-effing boat's electrical system

Quote:
Originally Posted by chowdan View Post
I may be a bit of an outlier here and point out this specific comment.

@ozsailer, you state that your friends motor vessel was rewired by a "qualified marine electrician", yet you proceed to go on to advocate for a professional to do this gentlemans/gentlewomans rewiring.
No he didn’t.

You misquoted and missed a very important detail. He stated a “supposedly” qualified marine electrician.

A “truly” qualified marine electrician would not make these rookie/amateur mistakes.

How does one separate “supposedly” from “properly” qualified contractors?

Step 1. Ask to see their cert.
Step 2. Check the certifying body list of certified technicians to verify the cert is valid.

That simple. Takes about a minute. Could save your boat and life. Cheapest insurance you’ll ever get.

If you fail to follow these two simple steps, whose fault is it if you receive substandard work?

As a boat owner, naïveté, ignorance, laziness, or frugality, is no excuse for hiring some bum looking to scrounge money to pay for their next bottle or fix.

You owe it to your boat, yourself, your loved ones, and others in the boating community, to ensure your boat is safe.
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